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#1347842 - 01/12/10 04:22 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Thank you, Rafael. Emmery enjoyed telling you once again that you are tuning the piano wrong...


I did no such thing, I ASKED him what he would say if a customer wanted their piano to sound like a piano...not an organ. He answered me with a reasonable answer. I get calls from people to tune a piano...not to make them sound like some other instrument. What this has to do with PTG or god knows what you want to make out of it has me stumped.

Start looking at the words you are reading Bill and stop your imagination from inserting your own stories between the lines. I have never called the PTG for anything nor would I expect them to do anything about it if I did. Neither have I complained like a baby to the forum bouncers about anyones behavior here.

A therapist can help some people...on the other hand some people need a team.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1347930 - 01/12/10 05:45 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Bill, I said: comparing non equal temperaments to ET (I should say my ET version, since it seems that there is more than one) is like comparing a potato to a sphere.

But if I had to give out an immage, I would compare ET to a horn, as smooth as a horn, as proportioned and spiraliform as a horn, as resonant and musical as a horn. Alternatively, to a shell.

http://www.furious.com/perfect/shells.html

You know, 5ths do not go in circles, but in spirales (check in web, Dave Benson's (Lecturer): Music, A Mathematical Offer) and yes, ET is logics and maths too, one of the sons of Renaissance, look at nature and learn, and the ouverture of early modern period. Also, Logics, maths (proportions) and music are in a very close relationship, you surely know.

Then Stopper is quite right there: 5th (in cycle) is the interval that gains all 12 semitones, and amongst the few other intervals that can do that, it is the most powerful, being the 3rd partial. Any gimmick with a 5th (this counts for all intervals) will unhinge the whole sound system. In my words, when we leave out precise beats proportions, we loose the synergistics of the whole set.

Then, the point is not what temperament you Bill Bremmer are allowed to tune.

The point is: what temperament should pro tuners be able to tune. My answer is: ET first (possibly agreeing on what ET is); well known and spread out HT second (you never know, you may get a specific request); any other non equal temperament model, as easy, original, musical, harmonious, powerful, energetic, non-clinical, non-sterile, perfect-imperfect as much as one can feel it, only last.

Best regards, a.c.





Edited by alfredo capurso (01/12/10 06:15 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

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#1348003 - 01/12/10 07:27 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Thank you, Rafael. Emmery enjoyed telling you once again that you are tuning the piano wrong. The customer will go to the piano and play chromatic M3s and declare, "Ay Carrumba! These thirds are all uneven!" Then, he/she will perform octave tests and say, "These octaves are all of different sizes!" "I did not ask for my piano to be turned into a pipe organ, I want perfect ET and pure octaves!" Then he/she will start playing music and declare, "This piece sounds DULL!" "Now, this piece sounds HORRIBLY out of tune!". "I want every chord to sound the same!" "I want complete freedom of modulation!". "I am going to SUE you!". "If I find out you belong to PTG, I am going to call the home office and have you KICKED OUT!"

Yes, Emmery KNOWS about those unequal temperaments. From time to time, he has sat down, put muting strips in his piano, opened a book and followed the instructions for tuning the Dorkmeister IX, X and XI. He played the topsy-turvy intervals. He heard the wolves howling. He tried to play some music but it the horrible sounds absolutely made his SKIN CRAWL! So, he promptly tuned his piano BACK! BACK! BACK! to ET!, wiped his brow, shook his head and wondered how ANYBODY could ever think they could get away with passing off a sloppy temperament like any one of the thousands there are in those old books as a piano tuning. "There ought to be a LAW!" Nobody but nobody around where HE lives EVER asked for their piano to be tuned like THAT! When people pay good money to have their piano tuned, they expect STANDARD TUNING! (You know, like when they order coffee, they expect coffee, not Mocha Java Chocolata Ya Ya).


No negative, ill-informed, inexperienced comments here or from any technicians anywhere ever dissuaded or influenced me in any way and they are not likely to do that now or in the future. Tear your hair out, bang your head against the wall about it if you will but I really don't care what you think about the way I tune the piano unless you agree with me. I don't care what your idea of how to tune a piano is. I have my own and I am sticking with it, period.




Emmery's question was a legitimate question and was asked and answered by the fellow he posed the question to.

By reading part of this posting I have quoted, who is doing the mocking and ridiculing?

It seems to be virtually impossible to have any sort of reasonable debate about any issue at all with you Bill.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1348005 - 01/12/10 07:29 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Oh, now I get it, Dan, the rules and proper etiquette state that it just fine to mock and ridicule anyone who uses a non-ET as in, "What will you say to a customer that says, "Interesting...now can you put it back to give it a piano effect since thats what I am paying you to do"?". It's OK to call such a person fool, an idiot or whatever you want. But what is not OK is for me to return the favor. Now I get it.

We've also heard Emmery's position on this several times. But yes, that is OK for him to say what he believes while mocking and ridiculing Rafael because you agree with Emmery. He can say it anyway he wants as many times as he wants. But what is not OK is to point out that the hysteria here is coming from the ET only crowd. that is against the rules. Now, I get it.


Complete and total nonsense.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1348065 - 01/12/10 08:51 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1602
Loc: Mexico City
In fact I didn't appreciate Emery's question. It is not a legitimate question about what I do if a customer doesn't like EBVT III, which is the question I've answered.

Emery's question goes far beyond that but I prefer not to make an issue of it and to rest calm.

I know how to tune ET and some UT aurally. And with my ETD I can tune almost 200 different temperaments.

So I can tune every piano I service, no matter what clients ask me to tune.

I am not touched by biased questions as Emery's. I am confident of my skills and I don't need to prove anything here in this forum.

I believe that here there are some that feel unsure of what they do and they pretend to reassure themselfs by locking to what they think is universally accepted (ET).

That explains why some tuners here do not tune anything but ET. And I am sure there are numerous tuners here that even don't know how to tune a temperament other than ET. I am sure they not even know what Meantone is not to say they don't know how to tune it.

And to their knowledge: it (meantone) is the most used system in the history of music.

But, if you read the first post of this thread, Peter's oppinion is against waisting our time learning to tune these old systems and we better invest our time into practice solid hammer technique and tuning stability.

For me it is crucial to learn those unequal temperaments if one aspires to become a better tuner.

What kind of tuner are you if you don´t know what a Pitagorean comma is, or a Diatonic Comma, or what 1/7 comma meantone means, and how it is tuned or what well irregular temperament means?

Emery, what are you going to answer if a client ask you such questions?

Maybe: "You see, I only tune ET, I know nothing about commas and unequal intervals, only smooth progressions of beats..."
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1348104 - 01/12/10 10:01 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Dan and Emmery,

Both of you know that Emmery's post was intended to mock and ridicule. Both of your rebuttals to my response was more of the same. If you want to get into a mock and ridicule contest over the use of non-equal temperaments in genernal practice, I can mock and ridicule far better than either of you because I happen to know what I'm talking about in that regard and neither of you do.

Neither of you know what we even mean by the "pipe organ effect". It is only another example of people who are completely ignorant condemning something in which they have no knowledge or experience, only the fear that one day, they will be asked to do it. Ignorance is Strength.

The hysterical scenario I wrote is only a composite of some of the ridiculous comments I have heard for the last 20 years but all of which have recently surfaced here. One thing I have noticed is the ET only, anti PTG crowd on here keeps coming up with them consistently. When you stop making those comments, I will stop showing how ridiculous they really are.

Whatever you say, you won't influence what I or any other non-ET tuner does in the least. You won't get me banned from writing about non-ET's on this forum either. Pick other subjects to write about and leave those of which you have no knowledge or experience to those who do and have interest in them. You are fighting a battle you already lost long ago.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1348114 - 01/12/10 10:15 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
In fact I didn't appreciate Emery's question...

What kind of tuner are you if you don´t know what a Pitagorean comma is, or a Diatonic Comma, or what 1/7 comma meantone means, and how it is tuned or what well irregular temperament means?

Emery, what are you going to answer if a client ask you such questions?....


Gazar, I spent much time learning about all the above mentioned terms, I even spent time tuning UT and historical temperaments on my own and my ETD has a bunch of them loaded in also. I can speak to any client intelligently about them if asked...however....IN 25 YEARS OF TUNING I HAVE NEVER BEEN ASKED.
I am not arguing with you over your quest to be a more rounded technician in these respects...do you spend as much time learning about the human ear, acoustics, piano history, wood refinishing or anything else on the fringes of our every day tuning work?

I didn't mean to offend you with my question but I don't know why you would be miffed by it Gazar? If you want to be the best historic temperament tuner out there knock yourself out...I would even have some respect for you for doing so. I just wouldn't pay you a dime to tune my piano in a way that I wouldn't like, and I wouldn't like an EBVT lll tuning for the style and type of music I play. I play in all keys and my ear is sensitive to iregularities that fall outside the norm that 99% of us are used to.

I realize that what we prefer in regards to temperaments can be a matter of taste but the guy who pays the piper calls the tune. Even if your tunings were SPECTACULAR compared to every one elses, there is an old business saying..."Only a fool sells gold when everyone is lining up for silver".
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1348124 - 01/12/10 10:25 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
B.B "..One thing I have noticed is the ET only, anti PTG crowd on here keeps coming up with them consistently..."

Wow...so which is it...does E.T. cause us to be Anti PTG, or do you think that if someones anti-PTG they mysteriously become ET only. We certainly couldn't have a brain or sense of taste, or freedom to belong where we want...that would be well...human I guess.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1348133 - 01/12/10 10:33 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1602
Loc: Mexico City
Emery,

In these 25 years, have you ever been explicitly asked to tune ET?

I have never been asked to tune ET. I am always asked to tune the piano, period. Neither I've ever been asked to tune any other kind of temperament.

In the first meeting with a client it is me who suggests to tune EBVT III.



Edited by Gadzar (01/12/10 10:36 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1348142 - 01/12/10 10:43 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
To answer your question Gazar, no I have not been explicitly asked to tune ET. Then again, when I take my one car in to the garage to have the white wall tires put on it I don't explicitly tell them to have them facing outwards, but somehow they always end up that way and we are all happy.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1348156 - 01/12/10 10:57 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1602
Loc: Mexico City
Once I'm done tuning EBVT III, and they listen to the piano, my clients always end up happy also.

You insist that EBVT III or other tuning than ET is not a correct tuning and you can not see that there is not only one way to correctly tune a piano!
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1348166 - 01/12/10 11:13 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Any tuning is a correct tuning if the customer wants it and is happy. If EBVTlll catches on and if people demand it, I would try and be the first person in my area to provide it......thats a lot of "ifs".
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1348171 - 01/12/10 11:21 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
Piano Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 400
Loc: Southern Ontario,Canada
So far maybe a dozen posters on this thread...lets say half on one side...half on the other. Out of the 4000 + tuners....what are all those other guys/girls doing. I wonder why they aren't all lining up taking sides. Maybe no one cares. I get plenty of calls to "tune" a piano, and thats what I do.
_________________________
Richard, the"Piano Guy"
Piano Moving Tuning & Repair
From London ON to Fort Erie ON

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#1348185 - 01/12/10 11:35 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1621
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Emmery
.IN 25 YEARS OF TUNING I HAVE NEVER BEEN ASKED.


Ok, so be honest now... In 25 years of tuning, how many times has a client asked for equal temperament by name without any prompting by you?

I ask this in class all the time and most techs with more years than you can count the number on one hand, if there have been any...

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1348243 - 01/13/10 12:36 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: RonTuner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
What I see again is what I expected. Resorting to ridiculous analogies, ridicule and mockery. You won't gain anything by doing that. You won't influence anyone's beliefs or opinions and you won't change what they do in their daily practice. I've seen the statement about "when the time comes that people ask for it..." before too, many times over many years, in fact. The very greatest fear is that it will come. Ignorance is strength.

Leave a subject in which you have no interest, knowledge and experience alone. I have also seen from other ET only people who claim that they "know" all about all of the various HT's, could do any of them at the drop of a hat but what they know best is why they never would. I simply don't buy that.

I have also seen on another thread on a completely different subject the very same type of behavior. A young pianist wants to know if his Acrosonic can be improved with regulation. Of course, the answer is yes but immediately, all those who prefer to ridicule and mock, the very same people who have ridiculed and mocked here on this thread, ridicule and mock the young artist and only suggest an impractical solution, knowing full well that it is impractical. Then, when specifics are given, bringing into question the knowledge and experience one may have with that kind of work, the defense is, "I have done that kind of work before", "I 'know' how to do that kind of work but I wouldn't" and then proceed with more ridicule and mockery.

If you don't want to offer anything other than what you customarily do to your customers for whatever reasons either real or imagined that you have, that is your business. What is not your business is to tell other technicians what to do, how to run their businesses and it is especially not your business to do it with ridicule and mockery.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1348441 - 01/13/10 09:46 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
What I see again is what I expected. Resorting to ridiculous analogies, ridicule and mockery. You won't gain anything by doing that. You won't influence anyone's beliefs or opinions and you won't change what they do in their daily practice. I've seen the statement about "when the time comes that people ask for it..." before too, many times over many years, in fact. The very greatest fear is that it will come. Ignorance is strength.

Leave a subject in which you have no interest, knowledge and experience alone. I have also seen from other ET only people who claim that they "know" all about all of the various HT's, could do any of them at the drop of a hat but what they know best is why they never would. I simply don't buy that.

I have also seen on another thread on a completely different subject the very same type of behavior. A young pianist wants to know if his Acrosonic can be improved with regulation. Of course, the answer is yes but immediately, all those who prefer to ridicule and mock, the very same people who have ridiculed and mocked here on this thread, ridicule and mock the young artist and only suggest an impractical solution, knowing full well that it is impractical. Then, when specifics are given, bringing into question the knowledge and experience one may have with that kind of work, the defense is, "I have done that kind of work before", "I 'know' how to do that kind of work but I wouldn't" and then proceed with more ridicule and mockery.

If you don't want to offer anything other than what you customarily do to your customers for whatever reasons either real or imagined that you have, that is your business. What is not your business is to tell other technicians what to do, how to run their businesses and it is especially not your business to do it with ridicule and mockery.




And once again, this posting demonstrates the complete inability of one person to see that the claims made in this posting are exactly what they themselves are up to. This posting is full of instructions and demands about other technicians who post to this forum, telling us what to do and where to post, how to post, what to think and on and on.

We accept that you do things your way Bill. But some of us do things different than that. Why can you not accept that some people are different than others, and they just might do things in a different way?

This does not make them wrong, just different from you that’s all.....

So far in this thread we are ignorant, idiots, useless, anti-PTG, ill-informed, I think I have eventually lost count on the labels provided. Labels have been provided in a magnanimous way for Jeff Deutschle, BDB, Peter Sumner, Emmery, myself, and probably a few I have missed along the way.

Perhaps if there was a little more than insults provided from one side of the debate it just might lend that side a bit more legitimacy....because this kind of thing just drags the whole forum down for quality of information and morale in general.

But it has all been mentioned previous on pages gone by and Richard summed it up once again. Most people don’t care; they just want the piano to sound good.

Whether it is tuned in ET or the tuning is completed standing on one foot the majority of folks don’t know and don’t care.
All this chatter about how all-important which mathematical sequence is used is just a lot of navel-gazing.

This thread outlived its usefulness after the first couple of pages. I cannot see the wisdom of having it continue, as most of the postings now have little in the way of educational information for any reader of it.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1348460 - 01/13/10 10:18 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Yes, the title of this Topic was inappropriate. It should have been Hysterical TUNERS. That is the real problem.

Now if anyone takes offense to what I just posted, let me just say, "If the shoe fits, wear it."
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1348813 - 01/13/10 05:39 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7212
Loc: France
Now today I recorded one of those Clinical ET on a German Steinway O - 1924 I have in the workshop , after having made a little sampling of unison tuning , for a change !

http://dl.free.fr/t1IxJwQuV

new plain strings, I am about to change the action stack rails, and install new parts, but the hammers.
so a few notes dont play as well as they should, but all in all I have hard time to understnad wher is that clinical problem ...
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1349046 - 01/13/10 10:34 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Dan,

Hold these words which you just wrote up in front of a mirror and look at yourself:

"Perhaps if there was a little more than insults provided from one side of the debate it just might lend that side a bit more legitimacy....because this kind of thing just drags the whole forum down for quality of information and morale in general."

Here is another example of you using ridicule and mockery to express yourself in your very last post:

"All this chatter about how all-important which mathematical sequence is used is just a lot of navel-gazing."

Your problem is that you cannot take what you dish out. I know that you are an ET only tuner, you have your own way of tuning ET and are satisfied with it and I know that only a small number of technicians ever engage in or are interested in non-ET's. I have always accepted that as fact and I teach people how to tune ET. PTG hires me to teach ET and publishes articles I have written on how to tune ET. Of those I teach, I never even mention what I actually do unless they ask about it and I in fact, tell them if they are novices that they should learn ET first, pass their exams and then move on to more advanced techniques. I have always done that and I will continue to do that.

However, what I do see quite consistently from certain people and that does include you, that as soon as I write about the subject which I have developed as a specialty, it is ridiculed and mocked. I also see the same behavior when techniques about servicing small verticals are discussed. It is often done so rather crudely and vulgarly as well. When I try to explain myself, what I do and why I do it, I only receive more ridicule and mockery. The more I receive, the more those who engage in it broadcast to everyone else how much they do not know, how much they are unwilling to learn any more than what they already know and how much they don't want anyone else to know about it either.

I have not written any posts on any subject whatsoever with the idea of telling you what to do. However, if you continue to ridicule and mock me, you can expect that I will point out what it is that you do not know and how truly and foolishly bigoted you are about that. If I were to go back through all posts I have written, then copied what your responses were to them, virtually all ridicule and mockery, then copied my rebuttal to what you said, then copied how you flew off the handle about it every single time, not being able to take what you, yourself dished out, the list would be very long, covering many pages.

So, don't try to pick on me because you will always end up making a fool out of yourself if you do. If you disagree with any technique or idea which I write about, you are going to have to find a better way to disagree with it than ridicule, mockery or any invalid analogy. Otherwise, you can expect a rebuttal that demonstrates what you have said for what it is. The rebuttal may include, as it has in the past, the suggestion that you join PTG and take the exams. If you did, you would find out just where you do fit in with the very large body of knowledge and skills that constitutes piano technology and truly come to the understanding that no one knows it all and no one is an expert at all there is to know. You might then well understand how really foolish it is to ridicule and mock something you know nothing about and want to learn as much more as you can instead.

So, if you don't want what you dish out thrown back in your face and you don't want me to say anything to you about PTG, just stop your ridicule and mockery. That, I am, in fact, telling you to do. Stop it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1349083 - 01/13/10 11:39 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Kamin,

Thank you for posting your file. To those who do not read French, "Télécharger ce fichier" means "Download this file" just in case you are hesitant to click on the link. It is a rather large file (67.6 MB), so you may want to direct the download appropriately (such as to a CD). Elsewhere, it says that these files are regularly scanned for viruses and that this file is virus free (which it is). Below the download link is an offer to subscribe to anti-virus software, so don't click on that unless you really want that. It would be a European, French language product.

This sounded fine to me, very clear and a good recording. I guess that was why the file was so large, limited compression. It is a very professional sound, certainly broadcast quality. I find no fault with it whatsoever.

In private discussions, Kamin and I have discussed the difference in voicing preferences between North America, Europe and Asia. I have heard elsewhere that what Americans generally prefer sounds too soft in other markets. That may be so generally but it is not always the case. I know that certain popular music, particularly the Nashville market likes a very bright voicing.

I sent Kamin some links to a website of a local colleague who uses exclusively HT's but Kamin could not seem to get past how soft and dull the voicing sounded to him. It seemed to be far more of an issue than the temperament for him.

Now, having said all of that, that I find no fault, that the sound is good, far beyond merely acceptable but indeed, superior, it still, for me personally, does not interest me nearly as much as the first trials which Patrick posted.

I'll take Bernhard Stopper's comments with all due respect as well. Some may find what Patrick did as beautiful and interesting, just the sound they were looking for while others may prefer what Kamin offers. I would remind Bernhard however, to not use such terms that may be taken as ridicule and mockery. That is offensive to those who are working hard to perfect the goals which they have. I have found Bernhard's sound to be quite exceptionally good and have said so although I have seen that Bernhard has also been the victim of ridicule and mockery on the Pianotech list.

There is a way to express one's dislike without ridicule and mockery. That kind of behavior only encourages a contest to determine who can ridicule and mock the best. It shows no respect for what one artist (which any fine technician is) tries to accomplish. It distracts entirely from the discussion about the merits of one style of art versus the other. It only leads to an argument about who is right and who is wrong when there is something good and positive about what anyone may put forth as one's art.

Thanks again, Kamin for posting the sample of the sound you work so hard to get. It may be a good idea at some point to assemble a collection of these samples on a special page, like the FAQ page, where anyone who is interested can compare various tuning styles and decide for themselves which they prefer.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1349101 - 01/14/10 12:02 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Yes, the title of this Topic was inappropriate. It should have been Hysterical TUNERS. That is the real problem.


Jeff, you have never written a post I could agree with more! That is exactly the point I have been trying to make. It has completely distracted me from writing the post about reverse well. I have been thinking about it, however and how to present it in a purely clinical, non-inflammatory way.

Long ago, I did write a very long article about it which I will not even look at for reference. I titled it, "What the HELLis Reverse Well?" because any time I wrote about it, that was the gist of the reaction I got about it with many people saying exactly that. It was an example of ridicule and mockery by people who knew nothing about the topic, preferred not to know anything about it and didn't want anyone else to know about it either.

So, can it be presented and discussed without producing a flame war? I don't know but we'll see.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1349193 - 01/14/10 06:12 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7212
Loc: France
Thanks for you listening and comments Bill.

Indeed it is a large wav file, but I used a 130 USD recorder (Zoom H2, it is very handy, really).

I mostly wanted to make listen how there is some aerial resonance when unisons are good and stretch is near the natural stretch of the piano, (I believe) in ET (hence a few notes not much stretched in the beginning of the 5 octave). I did not really tune the high treble last 8 notes... I did just a recording of how unisons may speak the voyel "oh" , then I tuned/corrected a few octaves and find the piano was toning nicely so I wanted to record it to give an example of what I like.

Of course what I play is way less rich harmonically than what plays Pat. I would have to work more at the piano to play really something more elaborated ! Less crispness than with a more modern piano, also. I used a lot the sustain pedal to show that when the tuning was somehow pure it was possible without having beats in all directions.

What I said about the tunings in Ut that you gave me the link is that, even if I hear that the temperament is of course not ET, (I really do not understand what it is supposed to add to the music on those records) the pianos have so poorly tuned unisons that there is no interest in listening, no musicl phrases, no articulation.
In that sense I even could not see which kind of effect was intended with the use of those HT UT, and I suggested that because their unisons are unlively, they look for other tricks to have contrast and funny resonances in while playing (I always have in mind that the player is hearing a totally different piano than me)

You say that it is because of the voicing , may be the pianos are voiced powerless because of the way the unisons are tuned, may be the unisons are tuned as this because the pianos are voiced powerless, but I am pretty sure that even with little power hammers one can have some projection and articulation (even if it is harder because the tone is so straight then)

All in all i find that pretty sad as by evidence they make a very nice repair and rebuild job on those pianos, and they are fine technicians and music lovers.

I guess I know what you say when talking of bland or clinical tunings, that does not come to the use of "ET" but the tuning based on the smoothing of one partial only, in a region, then another in some other be it in the bass region or in the medium, it always tone in an unatural way, the resonance of the instrument and the one of the room is not taken in account as a whole, it is only a method to have things in line, and it is sometime heard too much in the final product.

(notice that "pure 5ths or pure 12ths is not that, as it is the temperament method, it is more a well affirmed way of having the piano in tune, while I understand that some even progressing beats does not suffice to have a piano sounding musical.

The same may happens with a tuning which have too much compromising as for instance raising the speed of the intervals in 5th octave because there is more iH than usual at the end of that octave, idem in the basses because of the lowest strings.

Then ,certainly the more resonant intervals are not taken in account enough. and the coherence of tonality dissipates.

I like to have the piano express its resonance, but I understand and accept another way to tune/temper, as I am conscious that there are flaws in the ET theory and that we avoid them with different tricks, the audience is generally so little exigent that almost anything can be done , for instance the older clavinovas had stretch that raised by 2 cts,in the middle of temperament zone, then 2 to 4 cts each 4 or 8 notes , and nobody stated that those things where untuned (nobody stated that they where toning well, either ! )

I guess that some tuners begin to be tired of the huge eveness they could obtain with EDT's and begin to look for "old style tone" so they begin to reconciliate with 5ths, more or less.

Now the good tuner here have a nicely portable tuning that can be corrected or warmed by the next one without problems, even if he find a 3d which beats a tad slowly he can choose to correct it or not that is not so important.

As long as the instrument have its own voice that is enough taken in account in the output , I guess that the musicality is there.

The old methods to temper did not know the use of RBI, hence much more unevennesses and mistakes.

I understand what you are after with EBVT (find synchronism so to clean some harmony and hide the dust under the carpet to the remaining intervals, but as you are obliged to reconciliate it towards a more moderate tuning in basses and treble, I am unsure of its musicality, what could be done is make an EVBT on a software as Pianoteq, to have an idea of the output, but frankly I am still waiting to listen to it in close harmony to see how far it is from a basic ET.

BTW my kind of stretch may not be far from what makes Alfredo, on that tuning recorded, I guess (but more speed for the RBI in the mediums).

I am sure that on the same piano with more high partial in unisons I would have a larger tuning, here the hammers are 20 years old, as the plain strings (the basses are 80 years old) It is one of the nicest Steinway O I've find, We will have new basses anyway and a complete action rebuild, then I'll work to have more tone in the killer octave !.

The differences I recorded vs a perfect progression of thirds in the temperament of my colleagues where to the most of 1.2 cts, and often only on one interval. It was not high enough to change audibly the 3ds progression, so to say.
At those times I corrected that , and I had sometime the impression that too much of that compromising was at the expense of musicality, I bet it is because my main goal was to have those RBI progressiveness perfect, then I sometime loosed the feel for 5ths (or let's say the 12ths !) which may always rule a tuning whatever method is used.

Actually I say that RBI are there to put you on the good place faster, but then only you can tune the resonant intervals.

Hope I don,t look too much stupid saying so, The perfect progressiveness of RBI is a must for all modern harmony as the construction is easy on them, but if it rules the tuning the natural harmony of the piano may well be left aside a little too much.

Then , the way you express your frustration and abuse of strong words as Clinical or Reverse Well is more deserving you than anything else.

And a student tuner may learn to obtain a classical ET tuning before working something else, it is a convenience that is a tad easy to provide lively tuning because of the intervals size unevenness, there are other ways that some are may be not aware of.

I'll try to post a few links of tunings which are considered professionally good, but are too straight or lack harmonic richness to my ears. (On some I believe I recognize the SAT basic FAC curve, sorry for the SAT users the same apply with a 3d partial smoothing with other softwares/EDT)

I agree with Bernhard on the term "pure" in unisons.

And I am back to my cavern !














































Edited by Kamin (01/14/10 06:25 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1349195 - 01/14/10 06:16 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Germany


Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/14/10 06:17 AM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1349197 - 01/14/10 06:33 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7212
Loc: France
Absolutely superb, Thanks !

The painting also !

that Bb D 17 th is beating (may have be a A 415 probably so it is more a A C# and prove that tempering was based on A's not C at that time, which string instrument have a C as a bass note ?)

They have a very just intonation (is not it changed at each tonality change ?)

I enjoyed that much, will listen to the others now !

The "bell" is wonderful -
We are far from our keyboards and modern music , thanks again !



Edited by Kamin (01/14/10 06:42 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1349223 - 01/14/10 08:16 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill:

I am amazed that you see your behavior in this Topic as appropriate.

Yes, I hope your Reverse Well Topic goes better.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1349781 - 01/14/10 08:19 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Peter Sumner- Piano Technician]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1239
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Actually you guys 'sound' like a bunch of Middle School kids.

It's pretty funny to read though, keep it up!

It cracks me up, hilarious!
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#1349842 - 01/14/10 09:15 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Roger Ransom]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Roger that Roger thanks Roger!

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#1350258 - 01/15/10 08:29 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Roger Ransom]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
Actually you guys 'sound' like a bunch of Middle School kids.

It's pretty funny to read though, keep it up!

It cracks me up, hilarious!


No, YOU are the one being immature!

(Is that what you mean? laugh )
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1350590 - 01/15/10 03:59 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: UnrightTooner]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Kamin:

Can you tell us what piece (pieces?) you were playing passages from in the recording?

And do you by any chance plan to post the rest of it? (The downloaded file seems to cut off in the middle of a passage.)

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#1350659 - 01/15/10 05:45 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Jake Jackson]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7212
Loc: France
Hello,

I am sorry, you may have tried to download the MP3 it is partial I should have corrected it.

The long version (wav file) is complete, may be it is a tad large and your upload did not work completely.

Frankly I dont play a real piece, I just try the tuning on improvisation (not that good , I listen to it after !!)
Some time more inspired than others.

Even the tuning (I checked on next day) needed a few corrections (I did not completely tune the piano, it was to have listen that a basic ET tuning but with well tuned unisons, is lively enough)

The wav file is there : http://dl.free.fr/t1IxJwQuV

The MP3 I have to upload again http://dl.free.fr/pZIt0O9Pj - I did not verify the file yet.

It is an old piano but it have a really nice behavior, despite original bass strings, and soft hammers (22 years old, after 25 years hammers are said to be changed if they played enough).


Best Regards.


Edited by Kamin (01/15/10 05:58 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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