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#1356461 - 01/23/10 04:42 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Rafael, using the usual 5th test it is not really difficult to listen for a beat differnence each 2 seconds.
consider F3 C4
Count how many beats/second you have in the low M6Th

lets say 4 bps
then listen to 2 seconds you will have 8 beats
then you may heave 6 bps in 2 seconds on the 10ths if I am not wrong.

Not more difficult than, that, while I agree it is easier to deal with RBI's. and if you have for instance 0.35 BPS on a 5th the only good way is to use a metronome, compute an accepteable beat rate with a multiplier (for instance counting 1.40 bps (metronome 140) and count 4ticks.

It is indeed easier to have a guess based on the tone of the fifths and refining it with the progression of RBI's.

But I guess I understand what you are looking for.

To me, using the 6:4 relation is probably less precise, I doubt iH is as progressive as that, anyway the iH ranges I have seen recorded on different edt show often strange things (I recall RCT finding negative inharmonicity in the treble of old Pleyels, for instance)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1356517 - 01/23/10 06:22 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3223
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Rafael, you are, of course, absolutely correct in all of your observations, they are also what I've known for many years and have told my students for many years. BDB has his good days and his bad days. He knows better than what he said in his last few posts.

I just returned from my tutoring session with a student who had been studying the material from a certain correspondence course, the one many people choose as a "cheaper" alternative. I won't mention the name because people have the right to make their own decisions. I got an e-mail from them once and I don't want any more. It asked if I had seen their "new" temperament instructions and I had not, so I did hold out the possibility there would be new information but there was not.

The instructions are identical to those found in the Braide-White book but with all of the details, as far as they go, that Braide-White, to his credit wrote. I'll say this categorically: no one on earth could ever expect to tune ET by following the instructions the way they are written in that manual. No one could ever hope to pass the PTG tuning exam by following those instructions to the letter, not temperament, not midrange nor the outside octaves.

That would not be necessarily true for someone who really read, studied and practiced the more complete material offered in the BW book. However, consider that most who may have studied it never did understand all of it and never learned much if anything beyond the truncated version of what BW teaches found in the correspondence course manual.

No one who studied either the BW book or that manual or any other book or material which presents ET tuning in essentially the same way know anything whatsoever about any other kind of temperament unless they found it in another source. If they know anything at all, it is that there used to be other ways to tune but they have long ago become obsolete and therefore, there is no use for them nor any need to understand what they are.

So, there has been an entire century or more of tuners who believed that whatever they did was ET. Whatever anybody else did was ET. Any piano they ever heard anywhere could only have been tuned in ET. Any other kind of temperament would not work, you can't modulate, so very nearly every piano technician, pianist and music educator must have had that indelibly carved in their minds and most of them still do today.

Now, for you mathematical types, just how could it be true that all tuning is ET everywhere and has been for 100 years or more when the method that most tuners have used was not very well understood by most who tried to learn it, most ignored or never learned any of the details, and virtually all of them knew nothing about any other kind of temperament? I believe that the 90% estimate I have for those who tune by ear and firmly believe they are tuning ET but instead are tuning reverse well is conservative. It is at least that much but probably more.

Reverse well is the most likely result of nearly anyone who would follow the sequence written in that correspondence course manual and also the most likely result of anyone who read the BW book but did not learn the very complex checks and corrections which are absolutely essential for the method to work.

The answer to why so few people say they have never heard of reverse well or why they never heard any piano tuned that way is because reverse well has been accepted as ET for the last 100 years, the very same as WT had been accepted as ET in the 19th Century. It is everywhere but it has always been believed to be ET. All key tonalities are "useful". You can modulate "freely" in reverse well. You can play any and all music that we all know in reverse well and we have all heard pianos in reverse well.

I could not document what my student was actually able to do with what he knew from having followed the instructions in the manual to the best of his ability because he could not even complete a temperament octave without breaking down in complete frustration.

"We will find another way", I told him and I began to teach him how to tune a set of CM3s. Even though he had learned absolutely nothing about how M3s should sound from his manual, he could still clearly and easily hear and understand what I taught him today. I don't mind a slow learner who can only understand a little at a time. They are the best learners. In fact, the faster they may seem to pick up what is being taught, the more easily they may forget it. If it takes a month before he can set the CM3s accurately on his own with no prompting, that will be plenty fast enough because after that, the rest is far easier.

It may seem that most of what I have written above is off topic for this thread but to me it really is not. I told him about the "let the piano tell you concept". He clearly heard and understood how the CM3s do tell the tuner when the arrangement is correct. He clearly had been completely frustrated by following the instructions he had to the letter, as far as he had understood them. The piano did not "tell" him when the temperament was right but it surely did tell him that it was wrong.

He began by earnestly and painstakingly "counting" beats according to the instructions. He tried to tell the piano what to do but the piano replied, "Sorry, you can tune any interval you want to any specific rate you want but that does not mean it is correct. Only I know what is right for me and I will only tell you what you have done is right when you let me tell you and stop trying to force your opinion of what is right on me. Otherwise, you are fighting a losing battle."
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1356735 - 01/23/10 11:30 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2373
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Perhaps a topic on piano personification tuning techniques would be appropriate at this point.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1356815 - 01/24/10 01:42 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
What is eventually to be avoided is to talk with the piano in front of the customers !

I may confess I sometime fell the soul of the precedent owner thru the vibrations of the instrument , also !

(Taking medecines, but it wont go !)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1356867 - 01/24/10 06:03 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4939
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

I want to thank you for starting this Topic. It is wonderful that it has not turned as ugly as some have on the subject.

I would say that regardless of the sequence, if the result is that all 3rds and 6ths are progressive (let me continue to use this as a definition of ET) it is because the tuner listened to what the piano told them.

I do not believe that there is a 4ths and 5ths sequence that is available to you that will produce an ET. You must be able hear the tempering of the 4ths and 5ths directly (or at least be able to discern very slow beat rates) and also “juggle” the many intervals that nine notes produce.

Likewise, I do not believe (with one exception) that there is available to me a CM3 sequence that will produce ET. I must either be able to hear a slight variation in differences of the beat rate ratios of the M3s to set a perfect set of initial CM3s or mentally accept a smoothing routine that has multiple error sources. The one exception is a variation on ET via Marpurg that makes use of the ready made chromatic m3s and M6s for checking the accuracy of the CM3s and just SBIs. It is unfortunate if Bill sees this as an insult to his sequence. I have always meant it as a compliment. I have not, but really should, investigate just what the results of this variation would be across a jump in iH. It may be a compromise that I find acceptable.

But the most important thing that this Topic has done for me is cause me to look at the question of tuning with fixed beat rates again: Is it really advocated by BW, is the problem in the difference between actual and theoretical, is the problem in the ability of the tuner to discern small differences between actual and remembered beat rates, and are there any intervals having theoretical beat rates (perhaps including iH theory) that are correct enough and where the differences between actual and remembered beat rates are discernable enough to produce a reliable RBI that is appropriate to the piano’s scaling?

I am now convinced there are intervals with such theoretical beat rates. Tuning an initial M6 or m3 by using 4ths that beat 1 bps and 5ths that beat ½ bps in the temperament octave will produce a reliable RBI. But that does not mean that this technique is available for everyone.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1357090 - 01/24/10 01:32 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
But that does not mean that this technique is available for everyone.


You seem to say the same thing DBD did, except that you are more polite.

Of course there are bad tuners which are not able to do what good tuners can. But this is not the point here.


So now you state that if we can tune precisely tempered 4ths and 5ths at 1 and 0.5 bps then we get correct RBIs.


This approach is absolutely opposed to the "let the piano tell you" concept.

Here the tuner tells the piano that those beat rates of 1 bps and 0.5 bps are universally appropriate, for all pianos of any size and shape.

If you tune this way, then after 4 intervals you have a M3 of the correct size for any piano. And by tuning a fourth plus a fifth from a given note you will get a correct octave. You have no more decisions to make. There is only one correct size of octave! There is only one correct size for a M3. You have defeated iH, which poses the conflict of non aligned nearly coincident partials. There is no more balancing different types of octaves to the better sound. The octave must be tuned as the result of a 1 bps fourth plus a 0.5 bps fifth and all the rest will fall into place as expected. It really seams magic!

But I doubt you can tune real pianos this way! These magic numbers should make their points: Will RBI’s obtained by tuning this way be evenly progressive? Does 3 CM3 add up to the “unique correct octave“?

Can a good tuner really tune 4ths and 5ths directly with enough accuracy to complete the circle? The answer is: NO. All good tuners use RBI’s to correct the tempering of SBIs. Why? Because they can not tune accurate SBIs directly by themselves.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1357334 - 01/24/10 08:18 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2373
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Rafael, do you know of a tuner that can complete a temperament with strictly RBI's and then the SBI's fall into place? I doubt it. Everything is checked in the end so what is your point by looking for exclusivity with one or the other?
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1357547 - 01/25/10 08:03 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4939
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

I am using terms like “reliable” and “appropriate”. You are using terms like “precise” and “correct”. I am talking about juggling intervals to produce progressive RBI beat rates, you are talking about carved-in-stone beat rates producing progressive RBIs. You are building a straw man to knock down, and I refuse to help you.

And I do hold fast to my belief that tuning F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps will produce an appropriate octave on any piano. I do not believe that a compromise between 4:2 and 6:3 is an appropriate octave for all pianos.

Your reference to “the tuner telling the piano” is better defined by choosing the octave type before listening to the piano than by using the beat rate of the 4ths and 5ths. These beat rates are affected by iH in a way that produces wider octaves on lower iH pianos and less wide ones on high iH pianos. Choosing a compromise of 4:2 and 6:3 octaves does the opposite! Choosing the octave width according to the piano’s iH is “the piano telling the tuner” and the beat rate of 4ths and 5ths is a tool to do so.

It is not magic unless you do not understand or believe it. It can be demonstrated with math (which is a foolish thing to mock if it is not understood). I am sure that this effect of iH is utilized by Mr. Stopper’s program.

And remember that I admit that some techniques are not available to me, either. It is not a snub on you or anyone else. It is an acknowledgement of differences in ability. As far as what a “good” tuner is, only the customer’s opinion matters.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1357629 - 01/25/10 10:56 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3223
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I respectfully disagree that choosing an octave size when initiating a temperament is somehow inappropriate. Whatever that choice may be, it will be a different size for each piano depending on what the inharmonicity of the piano is. A 2:1 octave, for example, can never be exactly 1200 cents wide on any piano. It will always be wider. The amount by which it is wider than 1200 cents will vary from piano to piano.

If you create an initial octave by tempering a contiguous 4th and 5th, you may well find an octave that seems usable, that doesn't have an obvious beat but you could perform the same operation several times and each time have a different result, all of which could sound acceptable. The piano's actual inharmonicity has not been discovered, only different combinations of a differently sized 4th & 5th sum that results in an acceptable sounding octave have.

Whatever that result is, all the rest of the 4ths & 5ths have to be estimated after that and the only way to check and control those estimates is with RBI checks. If the tuner does not know these checks or has not learned to perceive and control the fine distinctions between RBI checks, the RBIs will inevitably be uneven and therefore the temperament will not be equal.

The most common error has always been to try to temper the 4ths & 5ths among the white keys a little less than they should be for ET. That tendency was identified long ago by John Travis in his book, Let's Tune Up as the "tendency to err towards the just 5th". No tuner likes the sound of a narrowly tempered 5th, so the process of tuning a 4ths & 5ths temperament along the cycle of 5ths which begins among the white keys, creates overly wide M3s among those keys.

About half way through the sequence, the tuner encounters a dilemma and is forced to overly temper the 4ths & 5ths among the black keys which in turn, creates M3s among those black keys which are not tempered enough and which beat too slowly. That is the exact opposite description of how a WT is tuned. So, the most commonly made error is to tune a backwards version of a WT without realizing it because most tuners do not know anything about what a WT really is or how it is tuned.

The tuner tried his/her best, "counting" beats the entire way. It didn't work out as planned but there seemed to be no solution, only to blame the problem on the piano. The result, time and again, on virtually every piano is reverse well.

Now, of course, I know there are tuners who are more sophisticated than that. They do have an exceptional sense of tuning initial 4ths & 5ths which will work out and when they do arrive at RBI checks, they know what to do with them and how to digress through previously tuned 4ths & 5ths to even them out and the result is an acceptable sounding ET. It has been my observation however, that these people are the exception rather than the rule.

Nobody ever suggested tuning any temperament using strictly RBIs, not Gadzar, not me and nobody who teaches tuning through PTG ever did. What I and all of the other PTG people who teach tuning and who set up exam master tunings do is utilize all intervals, SBI and RBI alike. No interval can be favored over another and have ET be the result.

Nobody is telling any experienced tuner who is used to using a 4ths & 5ths method and can do it successfully to adopt a method that may seem strange and cumbersome. What I and other PTG people do, along with the top schools such as North Bennett, Chicago, Potter, etc., do is teach another kind of strategy that has demonstrated itself to be more successful, much more often than the classic 4ths & 5ths method.

If a tuner learns to tune the CM3s accurately, it does not matter what the size of the initial octave is. It can range from slightly narrow to a full beat per second wide. Whatever choice is made will, of course, affect the entire rest of the tuning. The piano cannot "tell" the tuner which choice is more correct than the other and any choice can be considered valid depending on the circumstances.

However, the piano can indeed "tell" the tuner when the arrangement of the CM3s is correct to within an extremely small margin of error and that is what the phrase, "Let the piano tell you" means. We are not talking about mystical "voices" speaking to us. We are talking about a balance of intervals where the slightest change of any of the notes in that arrangement will either correct or upset the arrangement. Even the most inexperienced tuner can easily perceive when the balance of the CM3s is correct or not. They may have to practice for a while to be able to do it consistently well but the required perception of correct vs incorrect is something that any person with normal hearing can learn with a few minutes of instruction. They instantly develop a keen ear for RBIs when they do.

Once that set of CM3s is established, a tuner could merely tune 4ths & 5ths from each of those pitches and arrive at a fairly acceptable temperament without really knowing how to check and correct the rest of the RBIs. As long as a tuner knows that 4ths are widened and 5ths are narrowed and each of these is a reasonable attempt, the resultant temperament would probably be within an acceptable margin and most probably not exhibit any clearly reverse well characteristics.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1357635 - 01/25/10 11:19 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
Emmery,

You are absolutely right. It is not me who searches such an exclusivity. It's UnrightTooner who says he can obtain right RBIs on any piano just by tuning 1 bps wide fourths and 0.5 bps fifths.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 11:38 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1357660 - 01/25/10 11:49 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21519
Loc: Oakland
No, he said one particular fourth and one particular fifth. Of course, "1 bps" and "0.5 bps" are not necessarily exact terms.

This whole discussion is pretty silly. Technique does not matter as long as the results are good. Equal temperament is only important in piano tuning inasmuch as it provides a good compromise with the myriad other temperaments that other instruments use. The idea of trying to prove that someone's tunings are bad because their technique is wrong is ridiculous. All it does is discourage someone who is just starting out.

As I said before, the most important thing is the last step: going back and checking your work, making corrections as necessary. That is something I do every note I tune, not just in the temperament octave.

I have been looking for recordings of tunings I have done. I do not tend to record much music. There are restrictions on recordings of live performances which I do not wish to ignore. But maybe I can find something. In the meantime, you can always buy a ticket!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1357665 - 01/25/10 11:54 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4939
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill:

I suppose it depends on how you define the “width” of an octave, by the number of cents wide or by the partial match.

Let me try to restate what I mean. A small piano is better off (in my opinion) being tuned to close to a 4:2 octave, so that the resulting 17ths will not be too wide. And a large piano is better off (in my opinion) being tuned to close to a 6:3 octave so the 12ths will not be too narrow. A compromise between 4:2 and 6:3 octaves is fine for a middle sized piano but not necessarily for a small or a large one. I was not really expecting it, but when I investigated I found that setting the 4ths and 5ths as mentioned will produce an appropriate octave (in my opinion) regardless of the size. It will produce close to a 6:3 octave in larger pianos and close to a 4:2 octave in smaller pianos.

Of course if it is decided to tune narrow partial-match octaves on a large piano or large partial-match octaves on a small piano then the beat speeds of the 4ths and 5ths will be different. I just consider such tuning to be inappropriate.

But in all fairness, a temperament can be set to an octave that may not be the very best size and as octaves are tuned out from there adjustments can be made for a better octave without necessarily retuning the temperament. This leeway is why mindless octaves can be tuned starting with a fairly wide range of initial octave.

Also I believe there are sequences that use only RBIs, although I have no idea whether PTG instructors use them. If I remember right Defenbaugh is one.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1357667 - 01/25/10 11:56 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
…are there any intervals having theoretical beat rates (perhaps including iH theory) that are correct enough and where the differences between actual and remembered beat rates are discernable enough to produce a reliable RBI that is appropriate to the piano’s scaling?

I am now convinced there are intervals with such theoretical beat rates. Tuning an initial M6 or m3 by using 4ths that beat 1 bps and 5ths that beat ½ bps in the temperament octave will produce a reliable RBI.


Maybe I don’t understand English very well, but from what you wrote above I conclude that you believe that 1 bps fourths and 0.5 bps fifths in the temperament octave will produce reliable RBIs, for any piano of any kind of iH, as you are including iH theory in the first paragraph above.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
And I do hold fast to my belief that tuning F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps will produce an appropriate octave on any piano.


Me too!

I repeat what I said previously in this thread: I agree with you, this procedure assures a good octave on any piano with any amount of iH. But…

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
I am now convinced there are intervals with such theoretical beat rates.


Not me!

I disagree that tuning 1 bps fourths and 0.5 bps fifths will create a good ET on any piano. I believe that those figures can not be used on all pianos and that we must adjust these figures to the specific configuration of iH on each individual piano, so a “let the piano tell you” sequence is needed.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1357682 - 01/25/10 12:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I disagree that tuning 1 bps fourths and 0.5 bps fifths will create a good ET on any piano. I believe that those figures can not be used on all pianos and that we must adjust these figures to the specific configuration of iH on each individual piano, so a “let the piano tell you” sequence is needed.


If a 1bps fourth and 0.5bps fifth sequence is followed, and does not produce smoothly progressing RBIs, then the tempering of the fourths and fifths needs to be changed. I outlined the process by which I arrive at the correct tempering of fifths above. I very, very rarely find I need to adjust my fourths away from 1bps. A "let the piano tell you" sequence is there, it is just the correct application of the BW sequence. What you are looking for is a simpler one, but without tuning enough notes to arrive at sequences of chromatic or contiguous RBIs, there is nothing else to check.

In other words, what you are looking for exists, it is just the correct application of a Braide-White style sequence, using the progression of 3rds and 6ths to tell you of any systematic errors in the tempering of the 4ths and 5ths. I can't think of any other way that you could find the correct width for the 4ths and 5ths without tuning enough notes to obtain sequences of 3rds and 6ths.

The octaves-and-CM3s method requires a lot fewer notes to be tuned before you know that some intervals are correctly tempered. That just seems to be the way it is! smile
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1357683 - 01/25/10 12:21 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4939
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

OK, now I am confused. You agree that F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps will produce an appropriate octave on any piano. But you disagree that these beat speeds will produce a good ET.

I did not say they would produce a good ET. I said they would produce a reliable initial RBI; one that the sequence can be continued with.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1357685 - 01/25/10 12:26 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
Defebaugh sequence is:

A4<-Fork, unison
A3<-A4, down an octave
F3<-A3, down a M3
F3->D4, up a M6
A#3<-D4, down a M3
A3->C#4, up a M3
G#3<-C#4, down a P4 (this is the only one SBI tuned in the sequence)
G#3->C4, up a M3
F#3<-A#3, down a M3
F#3->D#4, up a M6
B3<-D#4, down a M3
G3<-B3, down a M3
G3->E4, up a M6
G#3->F4, up a M6

So he tunes exclusively RBI's with only one exception: G#3-C#4 fourth.

Though as he alternatively tunes M3s and M6s, he is implicitly tuning the involved fourths: M6=M3+P4

As long as I now there is no “only RBIs” sequence.
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#1357699 - 01/25/10 12:38 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
Unright,

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
I said they would produce a reliable initial RBI.


That's exactly what I disagree with.

While you can tune a good sounding octave for any piano with any iH by tuning F3-C4 0.5 bps narrow fifth and C4-F4 1 bps wide fourth, you can not continue that way tuning 1 bps wide fourths and 0.5 bps narrow fifths to obtain a good initial M3 or M6.

All I agree with is the size of the F3-F4 octave, not the size of the P4s and P5s, neither resulting M3s and M6s.

You have to establish the correct size of those intervals by listening to the individual piano's iH in a much complex and complete way (a set of CM3s for example or any other method you can imagine, which I am looking for here).


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 12:44 PM)
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#1357713 - 01/25/10 12:47 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Bill:

I suppose it depends on how you define the “width” of an octave, by the number of cents wide or by the partial match.

Let me try to restate what I mean. A small piano is better off (in my opinion) being tuned to close to a 4:2 octave, so that the resulting 17ths will not be too wide. And a large piano is better off (in my opinion) being tuned to close to a 6:3 octave so the 12ths will not be too narrow..




Hello, in fatc aint as straight. A large piano with low iH will need a very tight (pure) tuning as to avoid extraneous movement of the RBI in the medium.

A high ih instrument does not tolerate much stretch, so we may avoid 6:3 octaves. Besides, the differnece between 6:3 and 2:4 is low, simply it is not practical to use 6:3 it always will tend to stretch too much.

May be on a high iH large piano it is possible, this is a kind of instrument that provide more romm for stretch variants (but it will not tone very nicely with to plain octaves)

There are relatively small pianos with lower iH than usual (in the medium range).

I did not anayze how the SBI are acting , really, on those 2 situations. If you tune by a "nicely sounding SBI", I suppose that you correct that without noticing.

Then when the FBI comes in the pictures we are all under arrest !
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#1357732 - 01/25/10 01:00 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
UnrightTooner,

To me it is easier to tune A3-A4, F3-F4 as a 6:3/4:2 compromise. And here I agree once again with you, in low iH pianos I like to favor 6:3 type, while in high iH pianos I use to favor 4:2 type, I even tune a 4:2/2:1 compromise in small spinets.

But on any kind of piano I could happily tune A3-A4 and F3-F4 octaves the way you suggest! That is:

1. Tune A4 to the fork
2. Temporarily tune E4 to A4 as a 1 bps wide fourth
3. Tune A3 to E4 as a 0.5 bps narrow fifth.
4. Temporarily tune F3 from A3 as a 6-7 bps wide M3.
5. Temporarily tune C4 as a 0.5 bps narrow fifth.
6. Tune F4 as a 1 bps wide fourth.

And now we continue to tune the CM3s as usual. The tuning of C4 and E4 is only temporary to establish the width of F3-F4 and A3-A4 octaves in a proper way, and it will work on any type of piano. C4 and E4 should be retuned later in the sequence at the right spots.

I guess it will give consistent results, but I believe this approach is a little cumbersome as you have to tune and retune two more notes, which will be only temporarily tuned anyway. I prefer to verify octave's width with 6:3 and 4:2 tests.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 01:58 PM)
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#1357760 - 01/25/10 01:32 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
I believe a little precision is needed when speaking on stretch's amounts.

We use to say that a 6:3 octave is more stretched than a 4:2 type octave. And that is true only if we are talking of octaves of the same piano.

Now if we talk about two different pianos, which is more stretched? The answer is no so obvious, it will depend on amounts of iH present in each of the strings involved.

It is possible to have more stretch in a 4:2 octave on a little piano with high iH than in a 6:3 octave on a large grand with low iH.

To remediate this confusion it would be usefull to speak of stretch in terms of "cents wide from pure" intervalls.

In that way a 2 cents wide octave will ever be more stretched than a 1 cent wide octave, no matter the difference between pianos.

In that sense what Kamin says comes to light: A large low inharmonic grand piano accepts very little stretch, in cents, compared to a piano with more iH, as the different types of octaves would be closer to each other. And even if the octave is closer to 6:3 type than to 4:2, it will be less stretched than a 4:2 type octave on a high iH piano.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 01:45 PM)
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http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1357781 - 01/25/10 01:54 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Not a Mongoose
In other words, what you are looking for exists, it is just the correct application of a Braide-White style sequence, using the progression of 3rds and 6ths to tell you of any systematic errors in the tempering of the 4ths and 5ths.


I guess you are right. That sequence does it, it is only that it does not satisfy me. I find it cumbersome, inaccurate and error cumulative... I am looking for a simpler one.

And, for what I can see at another thread, I am not alone:

Originally Posted By: Not a Mongoose
My fine tuning has certainly been suffering in the time since I finished my tuning course, with not getting the chance to do any! I came across the concept of contiguous M3s, and have been astounded by the results. The tuning sequence I was taught was based on the Braide-White, and I never really got it to work satisfactorily. Always got confused by the checks and what they were telling me.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 03:03 PM)
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#1357810 - 01/25/10 02:54 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
leomtodd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 82
Loc: Limerick Maine
Well I am confused. I learned using 4ths and 5ths checking 6ths and 3rds major is slightly slower than minor. RBI regular beating intervals?

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#1357814 - 01/25/10 03:00 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: leomtodd]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
RBI=FBI= rapid beating interval = fast beating interval

SBI = slow beating interval
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Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1357890 - 01/25/10 04:53 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
I have only a little objection.

Instead of tuning a:

1/2 bps 5th + 1 bps 4th = octave, for example F3-C4, C4-F4

I would tune the 4th in the first place:

1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4

That is because of the partials involved in these intervals
4:3 for the fourth and 3:2 for the fifth. So when making the fourth to beat faster than the fifth we are tuning a wider than pure 4:2 octave.

4:3 faster than 3:2 = wide 4:2

While if we first tune the fifth F-C and then the fourth C-F the partials involved don't tell us anything about what kind of octave we are getting.

3:2 slower than 4:3 = who knows?



Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 04:58 PM)
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Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1357958 - 01/25/10 06:14 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I believe a little precision is needed when speaking on stretch's amounts.

We use to say that a 6:3 octave is more stretched than a 4:2 type octave. And that is true only if we are talking of octaves of the same piano.

Now if we talk about two different pianos, which is more stretched? The answer is no so obvious, it will depend on amounts of iH present in each of the strings involved.

It is possible to have more stretch in a 4:2 octave on a little piano with high iH than in a 6:3 octave on a large grand with low iH.

To remediate this confusion it would be usefull to speak of stretch in terms of "cents wide from pure" intervalls.

In that way a 2 cents wide octave will ever be more stretched than a 1 cent wide octave, no matter the difference between pianos.

In that sense what Kamin says comes to light: A large low inharmonic grand piano accepts very little stretch, in cents, compared to a piano with more iH, as the different types of octaves would be closer to each other. And even if the octave is closer to 6:3 type than to 4:2, it will be less stretched than a 4:2 type octave on a high iH piano.


Yes I guess you are right. I mostly talk of the way we tune, not of cts. 6:3 octaves on a Fazioli, concert grand , not at all (for instance)
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#1358028 - 01/25/10 08:01 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
I've never seen a Fazioli concert grand (except in photos). Here concert grands are mostly Ds. And they all have beautifull basses, a pleasure to tune them! All theoretical tuning stuff works to perfection in them.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 08:04 PM)
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#1358200 - 01/26/10 12:01 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3223
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I have long been offering alternative strategies to the classic Braide-White method for the reasons I have stated. I have also said that what I have to offer is not really for people who can use that system successfully. It is for aural tuning novices and those who have not been successful with the BW method. Having clearly stated that, the comments to my e-mail keep pouring in and none yet have told me that they prefer the BW method, I have only seen that on here by a few people.

Here a comments from today and yesterday's mail:

Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 4:21 AM
From: Stanley ***** <*****.net.py>
To: billbrpt@charter.net

Subject: Appreciation for recent Journal Article
Size: 4 KB
Dear Bill Bremmer,
I have enjoyed your series of articles on ET via Marprug Sequence.

While I attended the convention last summer in Grand Rapids, I took in 3 classes on tuning by ear. While I was there I bought the Reference Material for the 3 examinations to become a RPT. I'm thoroughly enjoying the material.

But with reference to your article in the December issue of the Journal I must say you presented specific material that is really being useful. Not only what note you tune after the other, but you included the action to take to correct things. The steps 13 to 21 in your article said to flatten this or to sharpen that. Excellent! We've had many articles on tuning but this one had something I needed.

To me that represents excellent teaching techniques.
Congratulations!
Stanley ***** International Associate Member, Paraguay

********************************************************

Date: Monday, January 25, 2010 4:36 PM
From: Jim ***** <*****@yahoo.com>
To: billbrpt@charter.net

Subject: marpurg
Size: 4 KB
Hey Bill,

Just a note to let you know that I've used the Marpurg sequence for about a month now and I find it very helpful. I have always tuned aurally. It adds some more steps but cuts down on the guess work and corrections.. I can't remember the last time I modified my temperament sequence, maybe 15 or 20 years! Thanks, Jim ***** RPT
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#1358272 - 01/26/10 01:41 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I have only a little objection.

Instead of tuning a:

1/2 bps 5th + 1 bps 4th = octave, for example F3-C4, C4-F4

I would tune the 4th in the first place:

1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4

That is because of the partials involved in these intervals
4:3 for the fourth and 3:2 for the fifth. So when making the fourth to beat faster than the fifth we are tuning a wider than pure 4:2 octave.

4:3 faster than 3:2 = wide 4:2

While if we first tune the fifth F-C and then the fourth C-F the partials involved don't tell us anything about what kind of octave we are getting.

3:2 slower than 4:3 = who knows?



"1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4"

These ratios occur on pure duodecimes (twelfths).

Bernhard Stopper
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#1358315 - 01/26/10 03:56 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I've never seen a Fazioli concert grand (except in photos). Here concert grands are mostly Ds. And they all have beautifull basses, a pleasure to tune them! All theoretical tuning stuff works to perfection in them.


Yes as they have moderate iH you can use different stretches it chnge the type of tone. It is not as possible with a low iH piano that scream easely.
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#1358317 - 01/26/10 03:59 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I have only a little objection.

Instead of tuning a:

1/2 bps 5th + 1 bps 4th = octave, for example F3-C4, C4-F4

I would tune the 4th in the first place:

1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4

That is because of the partials involved in these intervals
4:3 for the fourth and 3:2 for the fifth. So when making the fourth to beat faster than the fifth we are tuning a wider than pure 4:2 octave.

4:3 faster than 3:2 = wide 4:2

While if we first tune the fifth F-C and then the fourth C-F the partials involved don't tell us anything about what kind of octave we are getting.

3:2 slower than 4:3 = who knows?



"1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4"

These ratios occur on pure duodecimes (twelfths).

Bernhard Stopper




Hi Bernhard !

The next step is providing a workeable tuning sequence !. It may be easier to rely on 3:1 than on 4:2.

DO you think it is possible to switch from a 3:1 based sequence to an octave srtretch based one at some moment in the piano (treble) ?




Edited by Kamin (01/26/10 04:01 AM)
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