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#1358336 - 01/26/10 04:59 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Olek]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I have only a little objection.

Instead of tuning a:

1/2 bps 5th + 1 bps 4th = octave, for example F3-C4, C4-F4

I would tune the 4th in the first place:

1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4

That is because of the partials involved in these intervals
4:3 for the fourth and 3:2 for the fifth. So when making the fourth to beat faster than the fifth we are tuning a wider than pure 4:2 octave.

4:3 faster than 3:2 = wide 4:2

While if we first tune the fifth F-C and then the fourth C-F the partials involved don't tell us anything about what kind of octave we are getting.

3:2 slower than 4:3 = who knows?



"1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4"

These ratios occur on pure duodecimes (twelfths).

Bernhard Stopper




Hi Bernhard !

The next step is providing a workeable tuning sequence !. It may be easier to rely on 3:1 than on 4:2.

DO you think it is possible to switch from a 3:1 based sequence to an octave srtretch based one at some moment in the piano (treble) ?




ANY sequence starting from whatever octave width and fitting the other intervals into that width will do.

Bernhard Stopper
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
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#1358341 - 01/26/10 05:14 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
Yes , but your tuning is including stretch progression for at last 6 notes, my question is that it most probably does not allow to use another type of stretch aftertaht (octave based, or does it ?)
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#1358349 - 01/26/10 05:40 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Olek]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Yes , but your tuning is including stretch progression for at last 6 notes, my question is that it most probably does not allow to use another type of stretch aftertaht (octave based, or does it ?)


What kind of octave stretch are you talking of? Whole tone aural octave types, partial match octave types, frequency ratio octave types?

Many ways lead to Rome....
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1358353 - 01/26/10 05:57 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
Italian octaves ! Dont know wich type but a way to keep coherence with the mediums while finding enough stretch in the high treble when feeling the desire for.

We may well stick to some kind of methodology dont we ?
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1358389 - 01/26/10 07:47 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Congratulations again on starting a great Topic. Italian octaves, I love it! (My Grandmother would have said EYE-talian octaves…)

Let me make some general comments about 4ths and 5ths. There have been so many posts since I last posted, it is hard to sort out the questions and comments.

First let me talk about the progression of 4ths and 5ths. If we take a piano with iH and tune straight 4:2 octaves the 4ths and 5ths will increase in beat speed through most of the scale, but will less than double in beat speed per octave. Of course each contiguous 4th and 5th will beat at the same speed when the 4th is on the bottom; this is a test, or better yet a definition, of a 4:2 octave. And if the octaves are wider than 4:2 the 5th will be slower and if the octave is narrower the 4ths will beat slower. Also, if the octave partial-type narrows going up the scale (which must happen at some point or the 2:1 match will beat wildly even with straight 4:2 octaves) the 4th will progress slower and the 5ths will progress faster.

OK, your objection is that although starting with F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps is appropriate, tuning any other 4ths and 5ths with these same beat rates is not and will not produce a reliable RBI to continue the sequence. Great, we are getting down to brass tacks. Even though SBIs do not double in beat rate every octave, let’s use harmonic tones as a worse case scenario.

So what would be the error of using the same beat rates? Take a 4th that beats 1 bps and is 2 cents wide. The 4th an octave higher would beat 2 bps. And each 4th in between would beat by the 12th root of 2 faster than the one below it. And if the lower 4th was tuned to beat the same as the upper at 2 bps, the error would be 2 cents. So the error of tuning a 4th at the same speed as the one chromatically below it would be 1/8 of a cent. That is not much at all. Until we are looking at 4ths (or 5ths) that are contiguous, it may not be possible to manipulate the pin well enough, or to discern the difference in beat rates, in order to make the beats progressive. This is the reason I use the term “generally progressive” when referring to 4ths and 5ths.

And this is a worse case scenario. In reality, the beat rate of 4th and 5th do not double each octave. And if the octaves narrow sufficiently the 4ths may seem to all beat at the same speed. I believe this is how the Baldrassin-Sanderson sequence works with their use of a series of 4ths beating at the same rate. Considering the effects of iH and narrowing octaves, the 4ths may very well seem to all beat at the same speed.

So back to the “reliable” RBI. I am not saying perfect. And in cases where two SBIs are contiguous in the temperament, I believe that they should not beat the same. But even then, the errors are small and especially in the use of G-A# as a RBI rate ceiling I hold fast to it being “reliable” for continuing the sequence, not as a beat rate written in stone.

Also, there is a problem with using F-A# beating 1 bps and A#-F beating ½ bps to set an initial octave. This will fix the initial octave as ½ bps wide of a 4:2 octave. You might as well say 1 cent wide of 4:2. It does not allow the same variation due to iH that tuning F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps will.
_________________________
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Part-Time Tuner
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#1358533 - 01/26/10 11:36 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Defebaugh sequence is:

A4<-Fork, unison
A3<-A4, down an octave
F3<-A3, down a M3
F3->D4, up a M6
A#3<-D4, down a M3
A3->C#4, up a M3
G#3<-C#4, down a P4 (this is the only one SBI tuned in the sequence)
G#3->C4, up a M3
F#3<-A#3, down a M3
F#3->D#4, up a M6
B3<-D#4, down a M3
G3<-B3, down a M3
G3->E4, up a M6
G#3->F4, up a M6

So he tunes exclusively RBI's with only one exception: G#3-C#4 fourth.

Though as he alternatively tunes M3s and M6s, he is implicitly tuning the involved fourths: M6=M3+P4

As long as I now there is no “only RBIs” sequence.


If desired, G#3 can be tuned to F3 (instead of C#4) and this m3 should beat no slower (a tiny bit faster) than A#3-D4 which has already been tuned. Then there will be no SBIs to tune.

But I am sure I could come up with an all RBI sequence starting with an initial set of CM3s. After the initial set is tuned, M6s can be tuned with beat rates that fall halfway between the initial set of CM3s to produce a second set of CM3s. Then m3s can be tuned to beat the same as the first set of M3s (because of iH) to produce the third set of CM3s. And the fourth set of CM3s would be tuned with M6s that beat the same as M3s in the second set. At least that is how I imagine it in my head. It would have to cover more than one octave, though.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1359144 - 01/27/10 02:49 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
Also the sequence I designed uses only CM3 and Cm3s, but I believe 4ths, 5ths and 8ves must be always checked.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1359312 - 01/27/10 11:01 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
BDB,

As I promised, here is my piano tuned in ET.


Equal Temperament


My piano is a studio Petrof model P117K1, 46" tall.

There you can also see other videos where I play:

Moonlight Sonata 1st mvt, Beethoven
Pathetic Sonata 2nd mvt, Beethoven
Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain Medley, David Lanz

I am not a pianist, so please excuse my poor interpretation.


I would be pleased to hear a piano tuned in ET by you. It is not necessary to play music, you can just play runs of intervals as I did in my video, to show the eveness of the temperament and the stretching of intervals.




Edited by Gadzar (01/27/10 11:10 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1359346 - 01/27/10 11:47 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Here is an all RBI sequence I worked up just to see what could be done. Notice that, except for A4 while tuning the CM3 ladder, all the notes are in the temperament octave. I ran it though a simulator with a Yamaha U1 and 4:2 octaves. The result was that all RBIs were progressive, the 4ths were from 0.6 to 1.1 bps and the 5ths were from 0.6 to 0.8 bps. It makes use of an effect of iH that causes m3s to beat about ½ bps faster than they theoretically would relative to M3s in the temperament octave. I do not think this would work with harmonic tones. I did not bother figuring what checks to use, and the results would of course be somewhat different with other octave types or a different piano.

Here are the resulting offsets in cents:

F3 -1.3
F#3 -1.2
G3 -1.5
G#3 -1.4
A3 -1.4
A#3 -1.1
B3 -1.3
C4 -1.1
C#4 -1.0
D4 -1.1
D#4 -0.7
E4 -0.8
F4 -0.5

Tune a ladder of CM3s from F3 to A4.

Tune D4 to F3 to beat between F3-A3 and A3-C#4

Tune G#3 to F3 to beat between A3-C#4 and C#4-F4

Tune A#3 to D4 to beat the same as G#3-F4

Tune G3 to A#3 to beat the same as C#4-F4

Tune B3 to G3 to beat the same as F3-D4

Tune D#4 to B3 to beat the same as F3-G#3

Tune E4 to G3 to beat the same as A3-C#4

Tune C4 to G#3 to beat between G3-B3 and A3-C#4

Tune F#3 to A#3 to beat between F3-A3 and G3-B3




Now I am not saying that anyone, especially me, could actually get these results from this sequence on an actual piano. Hope you find this amusing, if nothing else. laugh
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1359364 - 01/27/10 12:11 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
Tooner,

As I have no U1 to try this sequence, I can not use the offsets you give, all I can do is guessing about how it would sound by the instructions you give to temper each tuned interval. Theoretically it seems to be correct, it is very similar to how I actually tune ET (CM3/Cm3). It gives a lot of available checks and it is self correcting, not error cumulative, etc. A good one, I guess.

Maybe if you tune a real piano using this sequence an give us a recording of it, we can all hear how it sounds like.


Edited by Gadzar (01/27/10 12:19 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1359374 - 01/27/10 12:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Sorry, it is unlikely that I will even try it. I do not like tuning with RBIs and do poorly at it. Nor do I have any recording equipment. But the sequence should work with any acoustical piano with an appropriate octave, just a little differently, but that is what checks and final checks are for.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1359798 - 01/27/10 09:08 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City

Here is the sequence I use to tune ET. It is an all RBI sequence, but that is not relevant at all. The goal is not to avoid tuning SBIs but "letting the piano tell you" what the tempering of M3s, m3s, P4s and P5s must be in order to fit in the temperament octave.

Contiguous Major-minor Thirds Temperament.

Summary

1. A4<-Fork
2. A3<-A4
3. F3<-A3
4. F3->F4
5. A3->C#4
6. F3->G#3
7. G#3->G#4
8. D4<-F4
9. G#3->B3
10. F#3<-A3
11. F#3->F#4
12. A3->C4
13. C4->D#4
14. A#3<-C#4
15. G3<-A#3
16. G3->G4
17. C#4->E4

In this sequence there are no absolute figures to be tuned, but all the beat rates are self-established in a way that 3 CM3s and 4 Cm3s fit in the octave (build up the octave).

If anyone is interested, the details and checks of the sequence are given here:

Modern tuning theory from a mathematical perspective
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1360025 - 01/28/10 05:27 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
I guess there is a sequence, but the piano does not tell you it only do its own thing to the less resistance path.




Edited by Kamin (01/28/10 07:10 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1360035 - 01/28/10 06:53 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1968
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Gadzar,

With the outside-M6-inside-M3 test (e.g. playing C3-A3, then D3-F#3), what exactly do you listen for? Do you compare the beat rate of the M6 with that of the M3, and is the idea that they should be the same?
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1360127 - 01/28/10 10:36 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Mark R.]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
Mark,

Yes, the idea is to have almost the same beat rate in the M6 and M3. Theoretically the M6 should beat approximately 0.2 bps faster than the M3. But in practice this difference is barely noticeable. In the video this is not perceived anyway.

Here are the theoretical beat rates:

F3-D4/G3-B3 = 7.9/7.8 bps
F#3-D#4/G#3-C4 = 8.4/8.2 bps
G3-E4/A3-C#4 = 8.9/8.7 bps
G#3-F4/A#3-D4 = 9.4/9.2 bps
A3-F#4/B3-D#4 = 10.0/9.8 bps
A#3-G4/C4-E4 = 10.6/10.4 bps
B3- G#4/C#4-F4 = 11.2/11.0 bps
C4-A4/D4-F#4 = 11.9/11.7 bps



Edited by Gadzar (01/28/10 10:55 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1360160 - 01/28/10 11:32 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
I guess BDB is not going to answer me.

So I invite all posters in this forum to comment on my video of the ET I just tuned in my piano.

My piano is a studio Petrof, P117K1, 46” tall (1.17 mtrs).

Please focus on the temperament evenness and the stretch of the tuning, I know some unisons are a bit off and piano needs voicing.

Equal Temperament

I am not a pianist but I play some easy pieces of music.

Here they are:

Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain Medley, David Lanz

Pathetic Sonata, 2nd mvt., Beethoven

Moonlight Sonata, 1st mvt., Beethoven.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1360181 - 01/28/10 12:40 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

You asked, otherwise I would not mention it. And since I am not your customer, my opinion does not mean anything.

The D3, F#3 and A#3 are all just a tad sharp, the F#3 more than the other two. Since these notes are all in the same set of CM3s it is hardly noticeable with the chromatic M3 test. But if you listen carefully to other tests it shows up, especially the 17th - 12th comparison. The M6 outside M3 inside tests were a little quick for me to lock into the beat rates.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1360509 - 01/28/10 09:38 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
Thanks Tooner.

Let's see:

C3 and C#3 are on the bass bridge. Wound bichords.

D3 is the first note on the treble bridge, it is also a wound bichord unison. D#3 is too a wound bichord.

Plain trichords start with E3. So it is the region where jumps in iH are to be expected and some compromises must be done. At that respect I always give priority to RBIs over SBIs.

After reading your comment I've checked these notes and there is a smooth uniform progression of M3s, and the fifth D3-A3 is indeed a little busy compared to its chromatic neighbours, but I guess I tuned it that way because I worked using M3s.

The other two notes F#3 and A#3 present almost the same problem: correct progression of M3s with not so clean SBIs.

You have a good ear! The quality of the recording is poor. In fact I hear many more things at the piano than are present in the video.

For the M6 inside M3 tests, yes, they were too quick. I didn't noticed that until I watched the video. At the piano the beat rates are much more discernible. It is as if the vibrations felt with our fingers were helping the ear.


Edited by Gadzar (01/28/10 10:03 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1360647 - 01/29/10 01:53 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21433
Loc: Oakland
If you really want to hear a tuning I did, you can try downloading files.me.com/bdboakland/17qdqz.mp3 . It is a very old recording, over 20 years old I think, not particularly well recorded, and the performers just stopped in to try out some music, so the tuning might have been kind of old. But it is a decent piece for demonstrating a temperament.

Interestingly enough, the piano, an 1896 or so Steinway A, which I hoped might end its days in some quiet home situation, is now in a recording studio, which means you may have heard it and my tuning without knowing what it is.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1360659 - 01/29/10 03:06 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I guess BDB is not going to answer me.

So I invite all posters in this forum to comment on my video of the ET I just tuned in my piano.

My piano is a studio Petrof, P117K1, 46” tall (1.17 mtrs).

Please focus on the temperament evenness and the stretch of the tuning, I know some unisons are a bit off and piano needs voicing.

Equal Temperament

I am not a pianist but I play some easy pieces of music.

Here they are:

Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain Medley, David Lanz

Pathetic Sonata, 2nd mvt., Beethoven

Moonlight Sonata, 1st mvt., Beethoven.




Good job Raphaêl ! I did not analyze why but the Ed 5th is larger, it reproduce afterthat in the basses.

I feel the tempering is better from F3 to F4 than in the lower octave where the progression of thirds raise a bit too fast.

Also may be I hear beats of high partials in the bass chords which tone well but I feel like if they could have more tonal value (probably more tight would be better ? , sorry if it does not make sense)

Recording the 17ths would tell

probably due to the recording but I like a bit more air in the tone but also octaves. All in all it is a very good job (I suppose in the recipe for tuning exam as PTG ask (?).

I'll post you privately.

Thanks for sharing I hope others will make comments as well.

If all tuners would tune at that precision level that would yet be nice !

voice a bit the C's (professionals pianists are ashamed it when I show them that the C of their pianos are more used than other notes !!)



Edited by Kamin (01/29/10 03:09 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1360662 - 01/29/10 03:17 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you really want to hear a tuning I did, you can try downloading files.me.com/bdboakland/17qdqz.mp3 . It is a very old recording, over 20 years old I think, not particularly well recorded, and the performers just stopped in to try out some music, so the tuning might have been kind of old. But it is a decent piece for demonstrating a temperament.

Interestingly enough, the piano, an 1896 or so Steinway A, which I hoped might end its days in some quiet home situation, is now in a recording studio, which means you may have heard it and my tuning without knowing what it is.


Thanks so much,

Indeed the recording quality is not good but the unisons are tight , to me they are not open.

The pianists seem to enjoy the piano which is certainly good.

I cant say about justness but it is not chocking to me, only the tone, and unisons.

Sorry have no time to listen closely.

The Bach is nice !
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1360704 - 01/29/10 07:18 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you really want to hear a tuning I did, you can try downloading files.me.com/bdboakland/17qdqz.mp3 . It is a very old recording, over 20 years old I think, not particularly well recorded, and the performers just stopped in to try out some music, so the tuning might have been kind of old. But it is a decent piece for demonstrating a temperament.

Interestingly enough, the piano, an 1896 or so Steinway A, which I hoped might end its days in some quiet home situation, is now in a recording studio, which means you may have heard it and my tuning without knowing what it is.


Listening to a piano that was tuned 20 years ago should show how stable the tuning was!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1360728 - 01/29/10 08:59 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3196
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Rafael, I cannot believe that people are picking apart certain intervals of your tuning as if that would really make a difference in how anyone would perceive music from a piano you tuned in ET. I abandoned tuning pianos in ET over 20 years ago, have tuned more than 20,000 pianos with intervals which differ substantially from ET each and every time, have collected my fees, paid my bills, earned my living and keep those customers year after year.

If intervals of a certain size were really a requirement, I think I would have heard something about that by now. Yet, I still have people on here telling me, warning me, in fact, that what I have done for the past 20 years cannot be done, will not work and would be rejected by any pianist or performing artist as soon as they touch the piano. Obviously, that is not true.

I would much rather hear the three pieces you offered in the EBVT III as you have learned to tune it. It would be thrilling to hear you play the long, C Major arpeggio across the piano so that we can all hear the "pipe organ" effect!

My own offerings are still in the works but will probably be delayed until the end of February now as Grandpianoman has not yet received the new damper tray that he needs for his piano. I'll make both sound files and You Tube videos.

Don't be afraid to do it, Rafael. You can expect that a few people on here will say the same things they've always said, that it sounds terrible, nobody ever asked them for that, ET only, etc. but you already know as I do where the real music comes from. My own opinion of the way the music sounded on your recordings is that ET ruined it. It took all of the life and expression that the music, as it was written away and left only intervals to listen to.

Why should we care what those who afraid to find where the true beauty of piano music is found try to tell us when we already know better than that and have experienced it time after time? You do not need to prove that you can tune ET. There is really only one reason that piano technicians try to suppress the exploration of any kind of tuning which they consider to be non-standard: it is the deep seated fear that they cannot do the same thing, don't want to learn anything new but some day will be asked to do it. All they can do is condemn such practices in hopes that no one will ever ask them to do something they don't know how to do and do not want to learn.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1360734 - 01/29/10 09:14 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
Bill,

Before the recording my piano was tuned to EBVT III, I tuned it in ET just to show BDB how I tune ET.

Now that it is detuned, I mean tuned in ET, I wonder if I can tune it in reverse well and make some tests.

And after showing the reverse well, retune it in EBVT III and record again the same 3 pieces, getting a way to compare the results. But, as I am a bad player, I'm afraid that would be not worth.

I'll have to find some free time, and a little courage, to make the tunings and recordings. It takes more than two hours to upload those videos in youtube.

Can someone tell me how can I do better quality recordings? What equipment do I need? At present I am using a video camera which produces .mpg files but I don't like the results, mainly the audio is horrible. And furthermore there is no need of the video, audio files suffice.


Edited by Gadzar (01/29/10 09:22 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1360742 - 01/29/10 09:30 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
BDB, I've heard your file.

The piano sounds good. I can not distinguish a temperament by listening to a unique isolated piece without comparing it to another temperament. But I've found no disonances in the harmonies, I guess this means ET.

I am with Kamin, I don't know what he exaclty means by "tight" but I didn't like the sound of some unisons.

For the stretch I believe the bass matches perfectly the tenor and treble.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1360749 - 01/29/10 09:42 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Good job Raphaêl ! I did not analyze why but the Ed 5th is larger, it reproduce afterthat in the basses.


(Thanks Kamin, I am glad you think I did a good job, your opinion is very important to me as you are a very fine tuner.)

I don't understand what you say about "Ed 5th is larger", can you please explain more on this? What is Ed 5th? Maybe is there a typo?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1360750 - 01/29/10 09:44 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill:

Gadzar asked for a critique: "Please focus on the temperament evenness and the stretch of the tuning..." And you use the replies as an excuse to go OT about unequal temperaments!


Edited by UnrightTooner (01/29/10 10:04 AM)
Edit Reason: deleted insult
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1360761 - 01/29/10 09:57 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1685
Loc: Mexico City
Tooner,

I've appreciated your observations: Critiques always give us the opportunity to learn something if we are open minded.

I also appreciated Bill’s observations. He commented on the tuning I did and on the results I’ve got. He focused more on the musical results than on the quality of intervals. I can also learn a lot from this.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#1360763 - 01/29/10 10:01 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Yes, you're right. Kumbya...
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1360794 - 01/29/10 10:33 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Good job Raphaêl ! I did not analyze why but the Ed 5th is larger, it reproduce afterthat in the basses.


(Thanks Kamin, I am glad you think I did a good job, your opinion is very important to me as you are a very fine tuner.)

I don't understand what you say about "Ed 5th is larger", can you please explain more on this? What is Ed 5th? Maybe is there a typo?


I did not have time to listen closely, I'll try later. The Eb Bb 5th is larger probably, I find the Eb out of range a tiny little and find the same in the bass so I traced it to the temperament.

as you stated wound wire..


But You may listen to 5ths they are the musician interval by excellence, as said before we in any case have to check all intervals, at a moment or another (better then in the temperament zone, indeed).
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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