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#1361509 - 01/30/10 09:36 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
leomtodd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 82
Loc: Limerick Maine
I hear the difference in both of the Bach preludes but I am new and confused but I don't know about what I like the one that inlanding did better than the reverse well temperment.Would reverse mean expanded 5ths and contracted fourths. I am up to 60 pianos tuned each one sounds better to me but my mentor is 4 hours away and haven't found another one closer. so i rely on me to hear. I practice every day on my piano at school.

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#1361521 - 01/30/10 10:02 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

It was until 20th Century that Braid White wrote his method of tuning ET.


In the year 1911 Joseph C. Miller published the frequencies of all the notes in ET as well as the beating frequencies of all the testing intervals. In Miller’s tables, one can observe the truths of the nearly equal-beating pairs of intervals that are used by the finest aural tuners.

Braid-White republished the same tables for his book in 1917.

Owen Jorgensen /Oct.2009


And throughout the 20th Century and now 10 years into the 21st Century, none of these beat frequencies ever helped the people who still tune in reverse well. The ET via Marpurg sequence permits a tuner who does not have the skills or perception to manage the myriad of RBI checks that it takes to tune a true ET. While the strategy was meant for novices, I have already received a report from an RPT who now uses it and is tuning a better sounding temperament than he ever could before using only the skills that a 17th through 19th Century tuner would have known.

There has been other documentation of other 19th Century schemes that could possibly, just possibly have resulted in what we would accept as ET today. Just because someone wrote a book or other kind of publication, it does not mean that all people who tuned pianos or other kinds of keyboards read that publication, much less were able to put successfully the principles into practice.

Therefore, yes, there could have been a few people, here or there at almost any time who may have been able to tune a true ET. There are a few people today who studied the Braide-White book, tune from either an A or a C fork and really do tune quite a fine sounding ET. But what about all the others?

If anyone rejects the label, "reverse well" (which I did NOT make up), then what label would you put on a temperament where C Major, G Major and F Major are always the worst sounding keys and F# Major, A-flat Major, B Major and D-flat Major always sound the sweetest?

Of course, the imperfect results of using a 4ths & 5ths temperament do not have to be reverse well, they could be a crude form of a well temperament or they could also be a kind of disorganized imperfect form of ET which is what is known as a Quasi ET and that is what most 19th Century tuners did according to Owen Jorgensen.

I might add that when Owen Jorgensen analyzed the EBVT III, he found that it was virtually the same as one of Neidhardt's (17th Century, I think, without looking it up) attempts at tuning ET. The mistake that these early tuners always made was to create equal beating intervals which cannot exist in a true ET.

"Equal" does not mean "equal" so to speak. Also, it was difficult then and still is today for tuners today to temper a 4th or 5th just a "little". Inevitably, the error is made toward the just 5th as John Travis pointed out. These little mistakes result in some kind of arrangement that in the past as well as today cannot be considered a true ET.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1361540 - 01/30/10 10:34 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mexico City
1911 is the 20th Century, as is 1917.

Mathematically, ET was known centuries before 20th. But ET was only tuned in freted instruments, like a guitar, where calculated distances between frets could be fixed in the instrument.

That was not possible in a piano. So it was until 20th century that tuners developped the aural techniques to tune true ET, that is : uniform geometrical progression of beat rates in fast beating intervals. Before that, there were no means to aurally tune the frequencies that were mathematically calculated centuries ago.


For example ET was tuned in pipe organs long before 20th century, because they have the means to calculate exact lengths for the pipes.


Edited by Gadzar (01/30/10 10:46 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1361618 - 01/30/10 01:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

As far as I am concerned the whole unequal temperament argument is like the Emperor’s New Clothes. And I am not afraid to say that they sound out of tune.

And it always occurs that when UTs rear their ugly head around here there is sure to be a bout of Braid Bashing.

You folks enjoy the rest of this Topic which I have been always convinced had the ultimate purpose of Braid Bashing. Just because some folks have difficulty with 4th and 5th tuning does not mean others do. And trying to malign a perfectly good sequence shows the desperate measures that some will go to, to disguise their own perceived inabilities. I am out of here.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1361703 - 01/30/10 03:40 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4192
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

The trouble with anyone doing this is the temperaments could be sabotoaged to make one sound better than the other.


If you already took Gadzar's rendering of ET as acceptable, there would be no reason to sabotage it. Just put the two recordings, one ET, one reverse well side by side in random order and ask people to identify which is which.

Nobody is trying to fool anybody. I already know the entire world has been fooled already.


I have never stated that I accept Raphael’s video of ET as acceptable. I don’t see where anyone else has either.

The only way this kind of a comparison can be achieved is by a “double blind study”. As we are all members of this forum, the temperaments and the videos of them would have to be done by an independent, impartial third party who does not have a vested interest in the final outcome.

I do not see any of us here who suffer from that type of unbiased impartiality.

As a matter of fact I would venture further to state that most technicians will have a preference to tuning one way or the other. So to find someone to complete these temperaments and videos for tests in a fair and independent manner would be difficult indeed.

This is not to question anyone’s integrity here but this is how scientific studies are completed.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1361705 - 01/30/10 03:41 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4192
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

It was until 20th Century that Braid White wrote his method of tuning ET.


In the year 1911 Joseph C. Miller published the frequencies of all the notes in ET as well as the beating frequencies of all the testing intervals. In Miller’s tables, one can observe the truths of the nearly equal-beating pairs of intervals that are used by the finest aural tuners.

Braid-White republished the same tables for his book in 1917.

Owen Jorgensen /Oct.2009


My comments were directed to the fact that Braid White re-printed those tables for his book. He was not the one who wrote them as per Raphael’s claim.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1361707 - 01/30/10 03:49 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21531
Loc: Oakland
Quote:
Mathematically, ET was known centuries before 20th. But ET was only tuned in freted instruments, like a guitar, where calculated distances between frets could be fixed in the instrument.

Guitars have never been equal temperament, unless your tolerances for tuning are extremely lax.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1362238 - 01/31/10 12:43 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

It was until 20th Century that Braid White wrote his method of tuning ET.


In the year 1911 Joseph C. Miller published the frequencies of all the notes in ET as well as the beating frequencies of all the testing intervals. In Miller’s tables, one can observe the truths of the nearly equal-beating pairs of intervals that are used by the finest aural tuners.

Braid-White republished the same tables for his book in 1917.

Owen Jorgensen /Oct.2009


My comments were directed to the fact that Braid White re-printed those tables for his book. He was not the one who wrote them as per Raphael’s claim.


Helmholtz published the same information sometime in the middle of the 19th Century. In 1875, Alexander Ellis translated the book into English but according to Owen Jorgensen in his book, Tuning, page 493, "No one read this book except for a few acousticians, music theorists and university music students".

All one has to do is read the first two chapters in Jorgensen's book, Tuning to understand why, although it was remotely possible, ET was not practiced in the 19th Century. The required information simply was not known. Jorgensen felt that this was important enough information to reveal that he put it right up front on pages 1-7 of a book that would continue for 798 pages. In other words, "Heads up, world, it never happened!"

Now, Braide-White and others did publish information that would have made it possible to tune a true ET but I have long maintained that just because he wrote that book, it does not mean that everyone who read it absorbed and practiced the knowledge completely and perfectly.

The tuning manual from the certain correspondence course reverts to essentially what was known in the 19th Century. Following those instructions to the letter, it is virtually impossible to tune ET! While it may seem offensive to the very few people I have known and witnessed who can use BW's methods successfully to say that most technicians cannot, no offense to them was ever intended. If those people can use the method successfully, there is no reason for them to try to use any other.

Having said that, it does not make a lot of sense to try to teach everyone a method which apparently a large majority fail to learn adequately enough to tune ET. Moreover, why teach a method that for most, does not result in ET but leaves the person believing in something that isn't true? That has and only would lead to more technicians incapable of becoming RPTs and passing off reverse well as ET as I have witnessed now for some 25 years that so many technicians do.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1362734 - 01/31/10 10:42 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2378
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Bill, not every tuner learns in the same way. My experience with those tuners who sought out the best teachers to teach them (in person) got the necessary feedback needed to progress and succeed. I must add, they did so with a high success rate from what I seen. Also, not all excellent tuners make good teachers either.

You probably see a bunch of wanna be tuners get tested that learned the trade reading about it on the john...one of the problems of having an open door policy for testing (as long as you pay the membership and testing fees) without an extensive, stringent screening process that should preceed it.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1362744 - 01/31/10 10:51 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Emmery


You probably see a bunch of wanna be tuners get tested that learned the trade reading about it on the john...one of the problems of having an open door policy for testing (as long as you pay the membership and testing fees) without an extensive, stringent screening process that should preceed it.


Once again, I only see ridicule and mockery of a process which from your very words, you obviously know NOTHING about. It is quite surprising to me how willing you are to broadcast your complete ignorance at maximum bandwidth.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1362750 - 01/31/10 10:56 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21531
Loc: Oakland
I wonder how many of these wannabe tuners read about how wonderful some of these old temperaments are and decide that they should do that instead of learning the basics of tuning.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1362756 - 01/31/10 11:08 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Virtually none of them, BDB, most of them got sucked in to the Braide-White method and produced reverse well as a result.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1362819 - 02/01/10 12:34 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2378
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Once again, I only see ridicule and mockery of a process which from your very words, you obviously know NOTHING about. It is quite surprising to me how willing you are to broadcast your complete ignorance at maximum bandwidth.


I would have welcomed a rebuttal based on some kind of fact...instead I get the usual from you.

I was simply putting two and two together Bill, it says on the PTG site under FAQ's:

" ...It must be emphasized that the Piano Technicians Guild does not have the resources to offer complete schooling in the field of piano technology. Unless fortunate enough to have extended instruction from a private tutor, those entering the trade need to enroll in a good residence-school course or a comprehensive correspondence course in piano technology to gain basic training..."

The words "mandatory", "pre-requisite", "extensive screening process", "References" "trade certificate", "previous education level" ect... are all missing both here and on the membership application. It is more like its "suggested" a person be schooled, certainly not mandated as a necessary requirement. Being asked if you were convicted of a felony also does not reveal ones schooling background and there is no polygraph test...so yes...I stand by what I said. How do you know someone didn't gleen their piano knowledge on the loo with Reblitzs' book in their lap, plop down their money and go and do the test? So when you say they do poorly, maybe its not because they learned from 4ths and 5ths or Braide White or whatever...maybe its because they just didn't learn.

By the way, I'm under the impression Bill that you question my knowledge, level of understanding of things or background from your childish flameouts and accusations. I'm a tested 98th percentile that speaks 3 languages fluently including 6 years of Latin, holds three degrees, two Red Seal Trade Certifications, and an additional Government Trade certification. A person does not attain these things by having the trademark of ignorance.

I know of many techs I respect that decently pull their weight in the trade that are not particularly highly educated, simply because they are good at what they do.

Would it be too much to ask from you to stop using inflamatory words "ignorant" or saying that I don't understand anything, simply because I don't tune like you, agree with your opinions, or belong in the organization you like to thump us with.

These forums don't always deal with fact, often just opinions, so don't act like a child when someone jumps up and down on the back steps because they think the porch light is flickering. Those with self acknowledged "extremist" views should be used to it or at least learned that it comes with the territory.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1362959 - 02/01/10 04:42 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
LOL, I really got your goat, didn't I? As I see it, you are still broadcasting to the world what you don't know and I am not going to try to educate you about it. When you have spent 19 years as one of PTG's tuning examiners as I have, you might then start talking a bit differently. When you actually have some experience using non-equal temperaments in actual practice for 25 years as I have, you might also have a cooler head about it. Otherwise, it only seems to me that you've just been hit on the head again by your own boomerang again while you had your eyes closed.

My only suggestion to you is to join PTG and take the exams and find out where you really do stand in the crowd and my guess would not be any where near the front of it. If you have any ambition at all to move forward, the first thing you should do would be to open your mind. Otherwise, you're going to continue to scream at me about how I am all wrong but I will never listen. As I have always noticed, the reasoning the few oddball technicians there are who refuse to join PTG and take the exams have is always completely irrational. They are ALWAYS afraid to find out what they don't know and you are the the most self absorbed example of it. What I have read from you both public and private is about as extremely irrational as it gets.

I actually respect your knowledge and opinions about a lot of what you write. If, however, you continue to choose to attack me on topics which you have no knowledge or experience, you will find that you have wasted an enormous amount of time and energy to gain nothing and only further isolate yourself.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1363031 - 02/01/10 08:28 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2378
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Bill, I'm finished discussing anything with you and will join the majority of folks in here in simply ignoring you. I don't come here to be incessantly pestered by a self appointed PTG Billy Mays. Your ramblings are better suited for a late-nite infomercial. Neither am I going to adapt a 2 steps backwards/1 step forward temperament tuning method or choice because I do fine with my modified Braide White method; my schooling, my past tutors, my peers, my customers and my ETD confirm that it does not need to be turned into the equivilent of a circus side show temperament to turn heads.

I would be an idiot to pay money to an organization and run the risk of being tested by an examiner that does not believe in, or practice in their work, what they thump on the public. I learned long ago, don't stand in front of a goat, behind a mule, or anywhere around a fool.

As for isolation, I have yet to be kicked from any forum or had the reins yanked on me for my contributions. Not from the forum owners, nor from my peers. I know this is not true for you.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1363081 - 02/01/10 09:53 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I do fine with my modified Braide White method

I have yet to know anyone who could tune a passable ET without using information acquired somewhere else than that book.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1363121 - 02/01/10 10:36 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4192
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I do fine with my modified Braide White method

I have yet to know anyone who could tune a passable ET without using information acquired somewhere else than that book.


"A man only hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest......"
The Boxer, Simon and Garfunkel

With all due respect to your years of service there Mr. Bremmer, I think there is enough evidence within these pages that show your preference for unequal temperaments.

Moreover many of the statements you have made on the issue of temperaments seriously bring into question your ability to remain impartial as an examiner in my view.

I am continually surprised actually that the organization of which you are so enamoured with has not realized this conflict of interest/oversight on their part.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1363539 - 02/01/10 07:12 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I suggest both of you get together (and have anybody else you want join in too), write a nice, formal letter to the PTG Home Office, expressing your concerns and see what happens.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1363824 - 02/02/10 03:45 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2013
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Beautiful example, Rafael! That is approximately the way most people are used to hearing it.


Well, then I'm not one of "most people". If I asked my tuner for a tuning (implicitly ET), and received my piano with a C4-E4 and F4-A4 M3s that sounded this wide, I'd politely request him to start again, or leave without payment.

I've played on many pianos tuned (presumably) to ET by many tuners, and have never heard anything like this.

For my part, as a non-tuner and in all humility, I can confirm neither that ET tuning almost invariably leads to Reverse Well, nor that "most people" are used to hearing it.

Just my 2 Cents.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1363934 - 02/02/10 09:43 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Mark R.]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mexico City
In fact this is a Well Temperament called Bemetzrieder Temperament Number Two, which was designed to sound good in the remote keys, contrary to other Well Temperaments and that's why it is classified as a Reverse Well.

I took it as an example to show how a Reverse Well may sound in the simpler keys.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1363986 - 02/02/10 10:51 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2013
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Yes, Gadzar, I understand where your example comes from.

What I don't understand, is Bill's insisting that
1) most tuners' attempts at an ET end up sounding like (or similar to) your example, and
2) that most people are used to hearing something like this.

From my experience (again: I'm no tuner, but have played on many instruments - and being a church accompanist, mainly chorales in the closer keys!) I have simply not heard most pianos actually being tuned purer in the remote keys and more tempered in the closer keys.

If anything, the opposite is true: one of my favourite Christmas carols is in B minor. (J.S. Bach: "Ich steh' an Deiner Krippen hier.") The second last note is A#4 (on an F# chord), the last is B4 (on a B minor chord, or B major if played with a Tierce di Piccardi). I have often cringed at the large F#4-A#4 and B3-D#4 M3s - on many a piano I've played.

So if anything, it seems that most pianos I've played on, are tuned in a slight well temperament - even though I'm sure that the owners never requested this.

Somehow I doubt that South African tuners work SO differently from American tuners (seeing that many of them are actually RPTs).

So where does Bill's assertion come from that Reverse Well is actually the order of the day, that on most pianos, C major actually sounds worse than any other key?

I'm wondering whether anybody else on this forum could confirm Bill's assertion.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1364017 - 02/02/10 12:00 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Mark R.]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1650
Loc: Colorado
Hi Mark,
Here is an audio file from earlier of my intention to tune in Equal Temperament.

Because I am still learning to tune by ear, my interest in Equal Temperament is greater than it is for the dozens of other temperaments.

My guess is the feedback I receive from the store where I do floor tunings and from my current customers is that they fully appreciate the musicality of the tunings and request that I come back. They even offer to make referrals.

This piano can be played in all keys equally well, and some keys sound a bit more harmonious than others, but under no circumstance do any intervals or key signature or modulations produce any dissonances such that they are disagreeable (musicality). I just make sure that the 4ths are slightly wider than the 5ths are narrow, then let 3ds, 6ths, 10ths, 17ths guide me the rest of the way up and down the register. I think it is a matter of style and what an expericed tuner uses as their methodology for acheiving a good tuning.

Because I have yet to acquire a computer tuning program, (maybe I will try tunelab at this stage of the game) it is not clear how many cents +/- some of the intervals are, etc, so let's just call this a quasi-equal or nearly-equal temperament. It might not be concert-level-grade, but a close mic reveals any and all glaring flaws.

The work-in-progress continues.

Bach's Prelude in C Major BWV 846

Glen
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A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1364259 - 02/02/10 07:17 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Inlanding]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here is an example I found on YouTube of someone playing in reverse well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c8LDWqBrGs&feature=related

If I find others, I will post them.
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364260 - 02/02/10 07:20 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here is the same music in even worse reverse well with bad unisons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weJWa4xWzC4&feature=related
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364261 - 02/02/10 07:22 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Amazing but all you have to do is look down the list and there it is! Again the same music, better unisons but even more reverse, reverse well!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvrGWHij10&feature=related
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364267 - 02/02/10 07:29 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here's how a lot of people learn to play on the way pianos are tuned for them. Just hammer it out! Is this music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfUXn3UKPZY&feature=related
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364269 - 02/02/10 07:31 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21531
Loc: Oakland
How can you distinguish whether those are in "reverse well" as opposed to, say, having artifacts from the recording or playback process?
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Semipro Tech

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#1364277 - 02/02/10 07:42 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
OK, now that you don't ever want to hear the Pachelbel Canon again in your whole life, here is another example of how people in North America have learned to accept reverse well as "beauty":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=occ17uDt4xM&feature=related
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364282 - 02/02/10 07:55 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
How can you distinguish whether those are in "reverse well" as opposed to, say, having artifacts from the recording or playback process?


Well, good question BDB. I listen for how strident the intervals are. There are other examples of the Pachelbel Canon that aren't as bad. The ones played on electronic keyboards in ET sound so much less strident.

The example Rafael put up was very deliberately done. A reverse Vallotti-Young. Most of what I witness is not so deliberate and organized but the harmony is still backwards. C Major is always the worst sounding key. That is what does it for me. When I hear that, it is reverse well.

In a lot of these videos, you do hear other faults like bad unisons and screaming octaves but at the core of each of the ones that I find tonight, I will hear that C Major is the most strident sounding key. I know I can find it as long as I care to search for it.

By the way, I first started looking for a George Winston Christmas concert that I know was recorded in Madison, WI in reverse well but none of the You Tube videos had it. The search did, however lead to what I know is out there. I am bound to find more. If I find somebody playing among the black keys in unusually mild harmony, I will post that too.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364297 - 02/02/10 08:22 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here is an example, I think anyway, of Debussy being played in reverse well. It is mostly among the black keys and you can hear some contrasts in the modulations. The harmony seems unusually mild but it is clouded by bad unisons. However, you do see that the pianist enjoys it anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lypur?blend=8&ob=4&rclk=cti#p/a/2AE947BB96238628/1/SbaLOJv888A
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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