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#1347183 - 01/11/10 09:10 PM Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist?
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
Long has been said about CM3 versus 5ths/4ths sequences for tuning ET.

I believe the main advantage of CM3 based sequencies is the "let the piano tell you" approach, in which you have no arbitrary beat rates to be imposed to the intervals you are tuning but instead you let the piano tell you if they should beat faster or slower in order to have a correct octave width.

Is there a sequence, using 5ths/4ths, which gives you the correct tempering of the intervals tuned, without guessing, trial and error issues?

All your inputs are welcome. I am really interested into know how tuners that don't like the CM3 approach do their way into setting ET.
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347192 - 01/11/10 09:23 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2375
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
With the CM3rds you are initially guessing also. You are simply "guessing" and adjusting less intervals before you fill in the gaps. With 4ths and 5ths method it takes experience and lots of practice to effectively get a quick temperament. With the younger generation tending to avoid things that do not bring instant results or gratification, the 4ths and 5ths method is probably becoming relegated to the past.


Edited by Emmery (01/11/10 09:23 PM)
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#1347226 - 01/11/10 09:57 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
Yes , with CM3 you first make an estimate, but then the piano tells you if your estimate was right or not.

Once you have the CM3 set from F3 to A4 you must make another estimate to find the correct size of 4ths, but again the piano tells you if you are wrong and you can correct.

These process takes you three or four intervals to be evaluated before correction is possible. But you can always determine which note to move and how much.

With a 5ths sequence you need to tune 4 fifths before having your first 3rd. And then you have nothing to compare it with.

It is only after nine notes that you have a complete picture but by then you have no clue about the needed corrections and that is where you begin tryal and error guesses.

What I am searching is a sequence in which the piano can express it self saying if the tempering is correct or not.

Experience and lots of practice don't make the point, you should understand what you are doing.
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Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347287 - 01/11/10 11:20 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
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Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
The "Let the piano tell you" approach sets the stack of M3's from C#3 all the way to A4, and particularly helps when there are many wound strings in this range. I use it on every tuning.

I set A4, then A3, then approximate C#4, tune C#3 down from there, and then proceed with the rest of the steps.

I then tune an F3/F4 temperament Braid/White style with fourths and fifths, checking with thirds and sixths: A3 to D4, down to G3, up to C4, etc. I don't move the F3, C#4, or F4 that I've previously set; I use them as "fenceposts", and fill in between them.

So the first step of the stacked M3's is all I need to let the piano tell me.

--Cy--
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#1347342 - 01/12/10 12:38 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
BDB Offline
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I do much the same with the addition of tests from the Travis method, which is contiguous thirds, fourths and fifths between one major third, and contiguous thirds to fill in the rest of the fourths and fifths. The all-important final step is to check everything afterwards. Note that I say I use tests that are based on Travis' method, rather than using his method exactly. Also note that I do not say what note I start with. Once you develop the method and understand the method, none of that stuff matters. You can start anywhere and do things in different orders. The final result is what matters, and that is a result of the final check.
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#1347459 - 01/12/10 08:09 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Long has been said about CM3 versus 5ths/4ths sequences for tuning ET.

I believe the main advantage of CM3 based sequencies is the "let the piano tell you" approach, in which you have no arbitrary beat rates to be imposed to the intervals you are tuning but instead you let the piano tell you if they should beat faster or slower in order to have a correct octave width.

Is there a sequence, using 5ths/4ths, which gives you the correct tempering of the intervals tuned, without guessing, trial and error issues?

All your inputs are welcome. I am really interested into know how tuners that don't like the CM3 approach do their way into setting ET.


Hey, Gadzar:

This can be a great Topic if we can keep from stepping on each other’s toes.

I have a problem with the questions you are asking because they are presupposing some things that I do not believe are true.

First is the idea that only in CM3 tuning does the piano tell you anything. The piano can tell you quite a bit, if you listen, regardless of the sequence. Next is the idea that a piano can be tuned without using arbitrary beat ratess. Sooner or later a fourth or fifth has to be tuned, and its beat is going to be set arbitrarily. Now if we are talking about setting an initial set of CM3s, on a well scaled piano, I can see how this set can be tuned without arbitrary beat rates for a given octave width accurately for the m3s and M6s to eventually be progressive IF the tuner is able to hear a very fine difference in beat rate ratios. But this is still only three out of twelve notes.

By asking if there is a 5ths/4ths sequence “without guessing, trial and error issues” presupposes that there is any sequence “without guessing, trial and error issues”. I don’t believe there is any such ET sequence.

But there is also a very real question about the accuracy of theoretical beat rates. Is a tuner’s beat memory good enough that the error is significant? And which intervals are more accurate and which are least accurate? And can we somehow know what they should be rather than just theoretically should be and start a tuning on a firm basis that in any case (I believe) will require “guessing and trial and error” for nine notes before the “piano tells you” how it needs to be tuned? I believe this is possible and is how I tune the temperament.

I won’t have time to post a sequence today, but will mention a few things. You cannot go far wrong by having 5ths beat ½ bps and 4ths beat 1 bps. If this is done carefully the beat speed of the resulting m3 or M6 from the first four notes (three intervals) can be used as a reliable guide until nine notes are tuned. And by carefully choosing the sequence the first RBI can be one that is used to best advantage and the ninth note will create a maximum number of checks. In the sequence that I use the first interval is the m3 G3-A#3, which no M3 in the F-F temperament should beat faster than and the ninth note is F#3 and gives an M3 that must beat between two other previously tuned M3s to prove the temperament.

And two other things to ponder: First, there is an advantage of building accumulative errors when wanting an accurate temperament, not just a fast one. Small errors that cannot be noticed singly can be noticed, and corrected, when added together. Second, when starting with a certain octave, as in CM3 tuning, we are not letting “the piano tell us”. But by tuning some SBIs and adjusting things for the best result, then we are.

Hopefully I can post a sequence tomorrow.
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#1347634 - 01/12/10 12:16 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
So far the only "let the piano tell" you sequences presented here are based on CM3s.

Emmery says that with experience and a lot of practice you can tune accurate fifths but he gives no "let the piano tell you" sequence.

Tooner says that the piano can tell you many things but he doesn't neither give a sequence.

Maybe I overdid when saying "free of triyal and error" but I think everybody understand what I mean by that, I'll try it again:

Of course we must make some estimations, trial and error, but with a CM3 based sequence it is finally the piano which tells us the correct width of M3s and P4ths to fit the octave we have initially set, I mean sequences like Sanderson-Baldassin, Eric Nikokoroff, Stebbins, etc. M3s and P4ths are not arbitrarily set by the tuner.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
You cannot go far wrong by having 5ths beat ½ bps and 4ths beat 1 bps. If this is done carefully the beat speed of the resulting m3 or M6 from the first four notes (three intervals) can be used as a reliable guide until nine notes are tuned


Here he starts with beat rates of 1/2 and 1 bps. And he has to tune nine notes before the piano tells him if something is wrong, in which case he'll have a bad time trying to figure out what is it and how to correct it. The only clear way then is to admit that the beat rate you estimated of 1/2 and 1 bps is not accurate enough for that piano and you have to retune all of your 5ths/4ths, hoping this time you'll be more lucky.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
If this is done carefully the beat speed of the resulting m3 or M6 from the first four notes (three intervals) can be used as a reliable guide until nine notes are tuned


You have to tune 4 notes before having a 3rd or a 6th and then you have nothing to compare it to. This barely tells us something usefull. We can not say if this third or sixth is tempered correctly to fit the octave we have already tuned.


Edited by Gadzar (01/12/10 12:26 PM)
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347657 - 01/12/10 12:40 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Come on now, have some patience. I said hopefully I will post a sequence tomorrow. But maybe I shouldn't bother if you have a closed mind about it. Perhaps what you have stated in the OP is not sincere. Do you really want to know how tuners tune ET with 4ths and 5ths or do you want posts for personal cannon fodder? It seems I have objected to the parameters that you have put on such a sequence for good reason.

Besides, the Sanderson-Baldassin sequence has six notes after the initial set of CM3s that must be adjusted back and forth until the fourths are correct. I do not hear you deriding this sequence. Other sequences that require estimates and refinements may be in good company.

(Oh, see you tomorrow tonight. A van driven by a volunteer will come by to take you to the corner of Third and Sixth about 6:30. smile )
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Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1347672 - 01/12/10 12:59 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
With the CM3rds you are initially guessing also. You are simply "guessing" and adjusting less intervals before you fill in the gaps. With 4ths and 5ths method it takes experience and lots of practice to effectively get a quick temperament. With the younger generation tending to avoid things that do not bring instant results or gratification, the 4ths and 5ths method is probably becoming relegated to the past.


You know Emmery, I would not say that I have ever been able to get a quick temperament. I suppose I am just picky. But I remember being able to get a good temperament the very first time I tried the BW sequence. The problem I soon had was dealing with jumps in iH, which the BW sequence points out, not covers over. Once I understood what the problem really was and how to deal with it (by reading this Forum!) I was able to be satisfied with the results. To me, that is the power of 4ths and 5ths tuning. It demands high accuracy. If there is an error, whether in tuning or scaling, a 4ths and 5ths temperament will point it out.
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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1347859 - 01/12/10 04:38 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2375
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Jeff, I was speaking generically about it being regulated to the past, not because it doesn't work, but because people feel there is a short cut around it. It is not an easy way to learn to tune temperaments. Still it was taught and learned by many a tuners in the past and yes, you are correct about the accuracy it demands and the lessons that it teaches us.
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#1348079 - 01/12/10 09:13 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
I am sincere. I really want to know how non CM3 sequences work their way to true ET.

Only that I have not yet found a good one!
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Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1348090 - 01/12/10 09:38 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
About Sanderson-Baldassin sequence. Yes there are six notes to tune, after the CM3 set, in order to have correct fourths.

set of CM3 = F3-A3-C#4-F4-A4
six notes (fourths) = A#3, F#3, B3 and G#3, C4, G3

What I love of this sequence is that after these six notes are tuned the piano tells you if fourths are too wide or too narrow and by how much. You know exactly how much and in which direction you have to adjust them. And, again, it was the piano who told you all that. You make an estimate and then you see if it was correct. If not, you exactly know how to correct it.

Up to this point of the sequence, the piano has told you the correct width of 3rds and 4ths and now you have a nice, correct and accurate nine note minitemperament from which you can easyly tune the rest of the temperament octave without any surprises.

In opposition what I've seen in 5th/4th sequences is that you have tuned nine notes and you have little idea on how to improve them.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1348402 - 01/13/10 08:25 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Here is a tidbit while I work on the sequence, it may not be done today after all.

When going around the circle of fifths every note is tuned after twelve steps, of course. So any interval or combinations of intervals can be defined after a certain number of steps. Now, guess how many steps it takes to tune a set of CM3s, or perhaps better to say, an augmented chord? Nine steps.

So if you care to look at it this way, a fourth and fifth tuning also uses a set of CM3s and that can be used to show the errors that any other set of CM3s can show. But since six other notes are also tuned on the way there are a multitude of checks available. These additional checks can be used not only to refine the set of CM3s, but to determine if the set of CM3s would be better tuned with an uneven beat rate ratio. But wait there’s more! (Now how much would you pay? smile ) These additional checks allow “the piano to tell us” the correct relationship between the m3s and M3s, the relationship between the 4ths and 5ths, and even the best octave for the temperament.

No, it isn’t simple. It is not for everyone. But it can be done and some tuners prefer it. I am not sure I want to try to explain all of it, because much of it I understand intuitively as spreading the comma, which is what tuning the temperament really is all about. I will do what I can by describing the order of notes to tune (duh) and the major checks that must be satisfied.
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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1349182 - 01/14/10 04:41 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
One example is the Franz Möhr sequence. The arrow points to the note been tuned:

A4<-Fork
A3<-A4
A3->E4
B3<-E4
B3->F#4
C#4<-F#4

After 4 fiths/fourths tuned we finally have our first M3 (A3-C#4) to check the tempering of our fifths/fourths. Questions arise: how do we know if this M3 is correct? It must have a known beat rate? Maybe 9 bps, or 8 bps? or 8.5 bps? (which would be against the "let the piano tell you" approach). Doesn't this beat rate will change with the iH of the piano been tuned? If we decide this M3 is wrong, how can we adjust our fifths/fourths? Are all of this fifths/fourths wrong or only one of them? or two? or three? too wide? or too narrow?

We continue the sequence:

C#4->G#4
D#4<-G#4

Our second M3 (B3-D#4) is now tuned, but it is not contiguous to the first one. However it can be compared to A3-C#4 which must beat slower. If it is so: good! If not, what should be done? How many of the four notes involved A3, B3, C#4, D#4 are wrong? In what direction? As some of these four notes are the result of several fifths/fourths tuned before how can we adjust those fifths/fourths?

Let's continue:

A#3<-D#4
A#3->F4

Voilà! After 10 notes tuned we are done! We have a set of CM3: A3-C#4-F4-A4. Although a bit incomplete because we don't have F3, but at least now we can adjust C#4 and F4 to have an even progression of beats in the CM3s and from there we can retouch the other 6 tuned notes.

Question:

Why not to tune directly the set of CM3 from the begining?

I mean :

A4<-fork
A3<-A4
A3->C#4
C#4->F4

What is the benefit of tuning all those fifths/fourths in between?




Edited by Gadzar (01/14/10 05:22 AM)
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

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http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1349186 - 01/14/10 05:33 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
I wonder, maybe the answer to that question is: INERTIA.

According to what Owen Jorgensen says in his book "Tuning", tuners of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries did not used to count beats of the fast beating intervals which were used only as tests listening only at their colour. So, sequences as the Franz Möhr's were mandatory.

Today, thirds and sixths can be tuned directly so there is no need to build them from fifths/fourths, as it is done in meantone temperings.

Techniques have evolved since then!


Edited by Gadzar (01/14/10 05:43 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#1349206 - 01/14/10 07:38 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Here is the sequence I have been using to tune. It probably does not fit the parameters that you asked for, but then I don’t think any sequence that tunes ET does.

For brevity, I will not mention what octave any note is in. This is an F3-F4 temperament. Only the F is repeated and which octave can be determined by context. Nor will the intervals be mentioned, just the notes. Also for brevity, I will not detail which way to correct for intervals. I am sure you know which intervals are wide and which are narrow.

The mention of beat rates is always for approximate, whole number, beat per second. The progression of the beat rates is what is important, but if a particular beat rate is far off from what is expected then the previous note(s) can be checked for errors without going further.

When tuning a fifth, the beat rate is about ½ bps, but what should be listened for is the “color” of the fifths. An even color between fifths is the goal as it indicates that the comma is spread evenly. This should also produce a general progression in the beat rates of the fifths. There is a valuable test for the 6:4 partial match of the fifth that is more objective than listening to color. The m3 should beat about 1 bps faster than the M3 in a minor triad constructed with a fifth.

When tuning a fourth, the beat rate is about 1 bps. There is some “color” to a fourth, but it may be easier to strive for a general progression. Contiguous fourths should beat progressively. The test for a fourth is the well known M3-M6 test. The M6 should beat about 1bps faster than the M3.

Listening to a fourth and a fifth with a common note is another good test. The fourth should always be “busier”. Being able to hear just how much “busier” is helpful.

Of course m3s, M3s, and M6s should beat progressively faster, unless straddling a jump in iH. Then there may be some unprogressiveness.

Regardless of the iH or stretch, the M6 outside M3 inside equal beating test is valid, with the exception of when only the M6 straddles a jump in iH. Then the M6 may beat faster than the M3. The companion m3 – M3 test is also useful, but not usually equal beating. Because of iH G-A# should beat faster than C-E; it should beat about the same as D#-F. Again, if one of these intervals straddles a jump in iH then there will be a difference in the comparison. These tests show whether the fourths and fifths that produced the RBI intervals are tempered the same, not whether they are tempered correctly.

I suppose that describing how I set the temperament is like trying to describe how to ride a bicycle. Once you know how, it makes sense. But it may not make sense until the skill of hearing the tempering (not just hearing the beats) of fourths and fifths is learned. This may require natural aptitude, and might not be possible for everyone.

1. Tune C to a pitch source.

2. Tune Fs to C.

3. Tune A# to Fs

4. Tune G to C. Check G-A#. This is the speed that no M3 should beat faster than, about 11 bps.

5. Tune D to G. Check F-D about 8 bps. Check A#-D about 9 bps.

6. Tune A to D. Check F-A about 7 bps.

7. Tune E to A. Check G-E about 9 bps and C-E about 10 bps and slower than G-A#.

8. Tune B to E. Check G-B beats the same as F-D. Check B-D is faster than A-C.

9. Tune F# to B. Be sure F#-B beats slower than B-E.

This is where a small but consistent error in the width of the fourths and fifths may be discovered because it is the first place where a note that is being tuned is a M3 below a previously tuned note..

Check progression of F#-A# with F-A and G-B. Generally if F#-A# is too fast then the fourths and fifths are too wide. If adjustments are made to any of these notes, or when deciding which of these notes should be adjusted: Check progression of F#-A to G-A#. Check F#-A beats the same as C-E. Check G-B beats the same as F-D. Check progression of F-D to G-E. Check progression of F#-A# to A#-D to C-E. Check progression of A-C to B-D.

Listen to the color of all fifths. Listen to the general progression of fourths. Listen to the difference between fourths and fifths with a common note. Make any and all adjustments necessary before continuing. Then the rest of the notes should fall into place.

If there is a jump in iH, these multitudes of checks should show that the RBIs may need to be unprogressive across the jump. If things do not work at all, especially after making some adjustments, check that all fourths and fifths are tempered wide and narrow, respectively.

10. Tune C# to F#. Be sure A#-C# beats faster than A-C and slower than B-D.

This is the first place that a note is tuned as m3 above an already tuned note and, like F#-G#, can be used to discover a small but consistent error in the tempering of the fourths and fifths.

Check A-C# beats the same as G-E. Check that C#-F beats the same as G-A# and faster than C-E.

11. Tune G# to C#. Check G#-C is progressive with G-B and A-C#. Check G#-F is faster than G-E.

12. Tune D# to G# and A#. Check B-D# is progressive with A#-D and C-E. Check F#-D# is progressive with F-D and G-E. Check F#-D# beats the same as G#-C.

Check progression of all M3s and M6s. Check each note with its fourth(s) and fifth. Listen to all outside M6 inside M3 checks and the companion m3-M3 checks.

All:

I am posting this first thing this morning so that any typos may be noted and corrected while I can still make edits. PROOF READERS ARE WELCOME!


Edited by UnrightTooner (01/14/10 08:58 AM)
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#1349213 - 01/14/10 07:56 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

I won't speak for Mr. Mohr, but I have posted many times why I don't tune with CM3s. Here is a summary:

They are not accurate enough for me.

When small errors are later discovered it leads to both of the notes in the original CM3 that are tuned to the first note of the sequence, but there is no way to tell which or both have an error.

They require that an arbitrary octave width be decided and accurately tuned a number of times. Choosing an arbitrary octave width is telling the piano, not letting the piano tell you. Any error in tuning the octaves will affect the accuracy of the CM3s. And a particular piano may be tuned better without identical octaves.

They do not make the compromise I desire for jumps in iH.

I can hear how the string is rendering better when tuning an SBI because of its slow beat which leads to better stability and, of course, better accuracy in the temperament.

The sound I desire is when all fourths and fifths are smoothly tempered. That is best done by tuning with these intervals, not with RBIs.
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Jeff Deutschle
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#1349250 - 01/14/10 09:08 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7556
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Gadzar:

I won't speak for Mr. Mohr, but I have posted many times why I don't tune with CM3s. Here is a summary:

They are not accurate enough for me.

When small errors are later discovered it leads to both of the notes in the original CM3 that are tuned to the first note of the sequence, but there is no way to tell which or both have an error.

They require that an arbitrary octave width be decided and accurately tuned a number of times. Choosing an arbitrary octave width is telling the piano, not letting the piano tell you. Any error in tuning the octaves will affect the accuracy of the CM3s. And a particular piano may be tuned better without identical octaves.

They do not make the compromise I desire for jumps in iH.

I can hear how the string is rendering better when tuning an SBI because of its slow beat which leads to better stability and, of course, better accuracy in the temperament.

The sound I desire is when all fourths and fifths are smoothly tempered. That is best done by tuning with these intervals, not with RBIs.




Jeff, an elegant solution to this is let the first 4th-5ths gives you the size of that octave, then make your ladder of thirds.

WHen you have smoothly tempered you 4th and 5ths you know what speed the RBI are, but you dont need to do all the sequence to know that.

By evidence if you listen to 4th and 5trhs you know where the limits are, afterthat using the RBI is mostly avery fast method to follow in that progression.

nevermind the exact speed of the FA M3d, for instance, (kind of 6.8 Bps on that model, and 7.1 on that other) it may fall in place that is the only important thing (and not be too slow, or too fast, but with time you get a feel for that too, as for 5ths behaviour.

talking of accuracy, if you need to tighten a little a SBI, you shim a beat in an unison of a RBI, or raise one of the FBI used as checks for your SBI so accuracy is on the RBI side is not it ?.


Edited by Kamin (01/14/10 09:11 AM)
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#1349260 - 01/14/10 09:35 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Isaac:

I understand all that you posted and have already tried it. I still prefer what I do for the reasons I gave. Thanks.
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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1349267 - 01/14/10 09:49 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
Unright,

I think you didn't understood what I've said about Franz Möhr sequence.

I was illustrating what you said in your previous post. Möhr doesn't use the CM3 setting!

I said: One example (of what you say in your post) is the Franz Möhr sequence....

In your previous post you say:

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
So if you care to look at it this way, a fourth and fifth tuning also uses a set of CM3s


I took Möhr's sequence and applied your point of view about a series of fifths/fourths generating a set of CM3s.

But maybe my english is so poor that I can not explain myself...


Edited by Gadzar (01/14/10 09:50 AM)
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

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#1349280 - 01/14/10 10:14 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
Now that you have posted your sequence (thank you), I can illustrate what I mean directly on it.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
1. Tune C to a pitch source.
2. Tune Fs to C.
3. Tune A# to Fs
4. Tune G to C. Check G-A#. This is the speed that no M3 should beat faster than, about 11 bps.


How do you check G-A#?
You have no other inerval to compare it with!
If you listen 11 bps, or 10.5, or 10 or whatever you hear, how do you know if it is correct or not?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1349307 - 01/14/10 11:06 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

I know G-A# is very, very close because I know what tempered fourths and fifths sound like. Then "the piano tells me" what the beat speed of G-A# is for how those fourths and fifths are tempered. Later this will be confirmed or not.

The G-A# is very, very close because of the interrelationships between the Fs, C, A# and G. In a way the resulting intervals are self checking much like a set of CM3s. If, for example, F-C is not tempered enough, C-F will not be tempered enough either unless F-F is too wide. And the relationship between F-A# and A#-F is also the P4-P5 test. The G-C is tempered similar to the other fourths and F-C is compared to A#-F. I think it requires that the tempering be perceived directly, not just the beat rates being compared.

Very, very close is all that can be expected from the first few notes that are tuned, even from CM3s.

I was reviewing BW yesterday. There is, of course, the table of theoretical beat rates. But when the sequence is explained the beat rates are rounded to the nearest whole number and are used to make sure that an SBI was not tempered wide when it should have been narrow, or used to assure a general progression of beat rates.

Contrary to what some may believe (and caused me to think along false lines), the idea is not to tune an RBI and then make fine corrections to the SBIs that formed it. The idea is that the tuner knows what a tempered SBI sounds like and then the progression of the RBIs are used as proof of ET not the absolute beat rates, even though they may have been believed to be always correct. (Which I have doubts about. The variance from theoretical beat rates may have been omitted because there was no explanation for it, and the precise beats rates really don't matter, especially for intervals that are used as checks.)

I do not know Mr. Mohr’s sequence, but perhaps you can see why I chose the order of my sequence to take advantage of which note completes the first augmented chord (CM3s) and the first diminished chord (Cm3s). There may be things about Mr. Mohr’s sequence that are not obvious from looking at just the order of notes. In any case, it worked for him.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1349513 - 01/14/10 03:11 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
I don't understand you.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
The idea is that the tuner knows what a tempered SBI sounds like and then the progression of the RBIs are used as proof of ET...


That is a "Tuner knows how" approach, not a "The piano tells you"

In short: you check with an interval, G-A#3, which beat rate is not relevant because you know how to temper fifths?

So what are you checking with G-A#3?


Edited by Gadzar (01/14/10 03:19 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1349664 - 01/14/10 06:09 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7556
Loc: France
a minor third - but whatever works ....the sequence is certainly useable but give no real size of the octave (seem to me )


Edited by Kamin (01/14/10 06:20 PM)
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#1349806 - 01/14/10 08:39 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I don't understand you.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
The idea is that the tuner knows what a tempered SBI sounds like and then the progression of the RBIs are used as proof of ET...


That is a "Tuner knows how" approach, not a "The piano tells you"

In short: you check with an interval, G-A#3, which beat rate is not relevant because you know how to temper fifths?

So what are you checking with G-A#3?


I have worked with dozens upon dozens of students who have tried and tried to use a 4ths & 5th sequence. They all knew 4ths & 5ths should be tempered but that is about all they knew. They never could even get close to using the fine checks which are necessary to make a 4ths & 5ths sequence work. Using CM3s just seemed to work better for them and many have gone on to pass the exam.

Here is an e-mail I received just today. It is now the 5th person who says they now plan to take the tuning exam using the ET via Marpurg at the PTG convention next summer. He is already a fine and professional technician who learned to tune using an ETD but is also determined to pass the exam and become an RPT. Yes, it is an anecdote but I feel it is a timely anecdote to this topic.

"Hello Bill,

I don't know if you will remember me but I have taken two tuning tutors from you during the last two PTG conventions. Last year was a special one you did for me right before my tuning exam. [I took him outside of my already full schedule without compensation of any kind for it].

As you may remember I failed part one by 4 points because I didn't pay close enough attention to the very edges of my midsection. C3 and B4. I did get a 90 on my temperament sequence. [He had used the "CM3s, then Up a third, down a 5th" sequence which was written and published in 2003].

I am writing you this note to tell you how excited I am by the new articles on Marpurg. I have been trying the sequence and it is a perfect fit for me. I am getting outstanding results using it. I do make a few fine tunings once the sequence is complete but I am sure with my next take of the tuning exam part 1 I will score very near 100 percent on the temperament. The speed with which I can tune my temperament will also allow me more time for the extended mid range.

I am also teaching it to my young apprentice and hope that he will be able to incorporate your ideas into his own temperament journey. [This is very encouraging to me because it is my hope that other technicians will teach the idea too].

Thank you for all your hard work and the articles you are doing in the journal. Please keep me in mind because I intend to take you for that beer we were going to drink at last years convention this next year.

With my warmest regards,

Steven [last name omitted for privacy]
[a city in Texas, omitted again for privacy]"

What I have read from the comments here seems to agree with Rafael's observations: using a 4ths and 5ths temperament successfully requires a high degree of skill. The piano does not tell, the tuner what is right, the tuner tells the piano what is right. If there is an irregular scale, what the tuner tells the piano doesn't work and the conclusion is that the piano cannot be tuned. In turn, that leads to the proclamation that only certain brands and sizes of pianos are worth tuning and all others are beneath the dignity of the technician to to even accept.

That is the case of Franz Mohr, or course, surely one of the finest technicians there ever was. But where does that leave all other technicians who can't be Steinway & Sons chief technician? Where does that leave all the other technicians who tried to take the tuning exam but failed it? What does it say about how close to clinical ET all of the RPTs who passed the exam but only barely within tolerance? What does it say about those who passed with a score of 90 which is considered superior? They still had 4 significant errors between 1.0 and 1.9 cents.

How could all of these possibilities still all be the perfect ET that so many technicians not only aspire to but assume is performed every day, by virtually every piano technician all over the world and always has been? Isn't it possible that at least some of these temperaments which aren't really a perfect ET exhibit the characteristics of reverse well?

Isn't it also possible that the temperaments tuned by those who can't manage to tune a clinically perfect ET actually quite consistently exhibit the characteristics of reverse well? Isn't it possible that this has been done for an entire century or more and that all recipients of it accepted it as a "piano tuning" (presumed to be and accepted as ET)?

If so, what is the reason why a 4ths & 5ths temperament has not worked for so many people? If CM3s are also just guessing, why is it that so many more technicians pass successfully when they use them? Why do their temperaments, even those with errors typically not exhibit the characteristics of reverse well?
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#1350056 - 01/15/10 12:46 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Kamin
a minor third - but whatever works ....the sequence is certainly useable but give no real size of the octave (seem to me )



I know he's checking a m3, that's obvious. But what is less obvious is how he's checking it. He says only that this m3 is the fastest interval in the sequence at 11 bps approximately.

When we make a test we always compare two intervals to see if they are equal beating or if one beats a little faster than the other. But here we are comparing G3-A#3 m3 to nothing but an arbitrary figure of 11 bps which may change dependig on the iH of the piano.

So what can we conclude by listening to this m3? It won't tell us if the fifths previously tuned are correctly tempered.


Edited by Gadzar (01/15/10 12:55 AM)
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Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1350108 - 01/15/10 01:39 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
Thanks Bill.

My English is so poor that I have a lot of pain to express my ideas clearly. But you seem to understand well what I am trying to say.


When learning the CM3 setting, I had a bad time to tune F3. Nobody was able to explain me how to accurately tune F3, until I read your article on tuning the midrange and discovered how the sequence is self-correcting.

The same thing is happening now to me with the correct tempering of fifths/fourths.

Each time I pose the question I receive the same vague inaccurate answer: experience and a lot of practice.

That is why I ask here if there isn't a sequence "experience free" in which the piano tells us how much tempering is correct for a fifth in ET.

All the posters that have participated in this thread say that an experienced tuner can tune correct fifths, but none of them can explain how it is done! And that’s what makes me doubt if they do indeed tune right tempered fifths.

I believe they really don’t. Not at least directly. They have to do a little guessing and then use some other resources to refine them. That’s why they can’t explain beyond “experience and a lot of practice“.


I like the way you, Bill, have putted it: "the tuner tells the piano" vs "the piano tells the tuner".

You give me some light when you say that there are bad scaled pianos for which what "the tuner says" doesn't work. These are the pianos I usually tune (mostly Wurlitzer spinets). I seldom tune fine pianos, so I need a sequence which will work right, even for bad scaled pianos.

I think that's one of the reasons why I prefer now WT over ET. In particular Moore and EBVT III which play well in all keys and sound fine even in small spinets.

I am not saying I can not tune ET in those little beasts, only that I can not do it using a fifths/fourths based sequence. I used to successfully tune ET for almost two years using CM3 based sequences in which the piano tells me what it needs.

I’ve heard Franz Möhr have tuned only Steinway & Sons pianos for many years, no other brand. I believe he even only tuned Ds and Bs, no small pianos. I wonder if he would use the same approach, same sequence and same tests to tune a Betsy Lester spinet.





Edited by Gadzar (01/15/10 03:09 AM)
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1350121 - 01/15/10 02:08 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
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I use the same techniques to tune a Betsy Ross spinet as I use on Steinway D. Tuning is tuning, it is the art of making the intervals sound the way they are supposed to sound.
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#1350148 - 01/15/10 03:17 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: BDB]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1734
Loc: Mexico City
Oh yeah!

It's the same thing: a D and an Estey spinet! The intervals sound the same in both, just the way they are supposed to sound. Particularly in the bass!


Edited by Gadzar (01/15/10 03:18 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1350151 - 01/15/10 03:25 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
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Well, it is easier on the D. But that is why people like what I do on the difficult pianos.
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