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#1347183 - 01/11/10 09:10 PM Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist?
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Long has been said about CM3 versus 5ths/4ths sequences for tuning ET.

I believe the main advantage of CM3 based sequencies is the "let the piano tell you" approach, in which you have no arbitrary beat rates to be imposed to the intervals you are tuning but instead you let the piano tell you if they should beat faster or slower in order to have a correct octave width.

Is there a sequence, using 5ths/4ths, which gives you the correct tempering of the intervals tuned, without guessing, trial and error issues?

All your inputs are welcome. I am really interested into know how tuners that don't like the CM3 approach do their way into setting ET.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347192 - 01/11/10 09:23 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
With the CM3rds you are initially guessing also. You are simply "guessing" and adjusting less intervals before you fill in the gaps. With 4ths and 5ths method it takes experience and lots of practice to effectively get a quick temperament. With the younger generation tending to avoid things that do not bring instant results or gratification, the 4ths and 5ths method is probably becoming relegated to the past.


Edited by Emmery (01/11/10 09:23 PM)
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#1347226 - 01/11/10 09:57 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Yes , with CM3 you first make an estimate, but then the piano tells you if your estimate was right or not.

Once you have the CM3 set from F3 to A4 you must make another estimate to find the correct size of 4ths, but again the piano tells you if you are wrong and you can correct.

These process takes you three or four intervals to be evaluated before correction is possible. But you can always determine which note to move and how much.

With a 5ths sequence you need to tune 4 fifths before having your first 3rd. And then you have nothing to compare it with.

It is only after nine notes that you have a complete picture but by then you have no clue about the needed corrections and that is where you begin tryal and error guesses.

What I am searching is a sequence in which the piano can express it self saying if the tempering is correct or not.

Experience and lots of practice don't make the point, you should understand what you are doing.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347287 - 01/11/10 11:20 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
The "Let the piano tell you" approach sets the stack of M3's from C#3 all the way to A4, and particularly helps when there are many wound strings in this range. I use it on every tuning.

I set A4, then A3, then approximate C#4, tune C#3 down from there, and then proceed with the rest of the steps.

I then tune an F3/F4 temperament Braid/White style with fourths and fifths, checking with thirds and sixths: A3 to D4, down to G3, up to C4, etc. I don't move the F3, C#4, or F4 that I've previously set; I use them as "fenceposts", and fill in between them.

So the first step of the stacked M3's is all I need to let the piano tell me.

--Cy--
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#1347342 - 01/12/10 12:38 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
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Loc: Oakland
I do much the same with the addition of tests from the Travis method, which is contiguous thirds, fourths and fifths between one major third, and contiguous thirds to fill in the rest of the fourths and fifths. The all-important final step is to check everything afterwards. Note that I say I use tests that are based on Travis' method, rather than using his method exactly. Also note that I do not say what note I start with. Once you develop the method and understand the method, none of that stuff matters. You can start anywhere and do things in different orders. The final result is what matters, and that is a result of the final check.
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#1347459 - 01/12/10 08:09 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Long has been said about CM3 versus 5ths/4ths sequences for tuning ET.

I believe the main advantage of CM3 based sequencies is the "let the piano tell you" approach, in which you have no arbitrary beat rates to be imposed to the intervals you are tuning but instead you let the piano tell you if they should beat faster or slower in order to have a correct octave width.

Is there a sequence, using 5ths/4ths, which gives you the correct tempering of the intervals tuned, without guessing, trial and error issues?

All your inputs are welcome. I am really interested into know how tuners that don't like the CM3 approach do their way into setting ET.


Hey, Gadzar:

This can be a great Topic if we can keep from stepping on each other’s toes.

I have a problem with the questions you are asking because they are presupposing some things that I do not believe are true.

First is the idea that only in CM3 tuning does the piano tell you anything. The piano can tell you quite a bit, if you listen, regardless of the sequence. Next is the idea that a piano can be tuned without using arbitrary beat ratess. Sooner or later a fourth or fifth has to be tuned, and its beat is going to be set arbitrarily. Now if we are talking about setting an initial set of CM3s, on a well scaled piano, I can see how this set can be tuned without arbitrary beat rates for a given octave width accurately for the m3s and M6s to eventually be progressive IF the tuner is able to hear a very fine difference in beat rate ratios. But this is still only three out of twelve notes.

By asking if there is a 5ths/4ths sequence “without guessing, trial and error issues” presupposes that there is any sequence “without guessing, trial and error issues”. I don’t believe there is any such ET sequence.

But there is also a very real question about the accuracy of theoretical beat rates. Is a tuner’s beat memory good enough that the error is significant? And which intervals are more accurate and which are least accurate? And can we somehow know what they should be rather than just theoretically should be and start a tuning on a firm basis that in any case (I believe) will require “guessing and trial and error” for nine notes before the “piano tells you” how it needs to be tuned? I believe this is possible and is how I tune the temperament.

I won’t have time to post a sequence today, but will mention a few things. You cannot go far wrong by having 5ths beat ½ bps and 4ths beat 1 bps. If this is done carefully the beat speed of the resulting m3 or M6 from the first four notes (three intervals) can be used as a reliable guide until nine notes are tuned. And by carefully choosing the sequence the first RBI can be one that is used to best advantage and the ninth note will create a maximum number of checks. In the sequence that I use the first interval is the m3 G3-A#3, which no M3 in the F-F temperament should beat faster than and the ninth note is F#3 and gives an M3 that must beat between two other previously tuned M3s to prove the temperament.

And two other things to ponder: First, there is an advantage of building accumulative errors when wanting an accurate temperament, not just a fast one. Small errors that cannot be noticed singly can be noticed, and corrected, when added together. Second, when starting with a certain octave, as in CM3 tuning, we are not letting “the piano tell us”. But by tuning some SBIs and adjusting things for the best result, then we are.

Hopefully I can post a sequence tomorrow.
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Jeff Deutschle
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#1347634 - 01/12/10 12:16 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
So far the only "let the piano tell" you sequences presented here are based on CM3s.

Emmery says that with experience and a lot of practice you can tune accurate fifths but he gives no "let the piano tell you" sequence.

Tooner says that the piano can tell you many things but he doesn't neither give a sequence.

Maybe I overdid when saying "free of triyal and error" but I think everybody understand what I mean by that, I'll try it again:

Of course we must make some estimations, trial and error, but with a CM3 based sequence it is finally the piano which tells us the correct width of M3s and P4ths to fit the octave we have initially set, I mean sequences like Sanderson-Baldassin, Eric Nikokoroff, Stebbins, etc. M3s and P4ths are not arbitrarily set by the tuner.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
You cannot go far wrong by having 5ths beat ½ bps and 4ths beat 1 bps. If this is done carefully the beat speed of the resulting m3 or M6 from the first four notes (three intervals) can be used as a reliable guide until nine notes are tuned


Here he starts with beat rates of 1/2 and 1 bps. And he has to tune nine notes before the piano tells him if something is wrong, in which case he'll have a bad time trying to figure out what is it and how to correct it. The only clear way then is to admit that the beat rate you estimated of 1/2 and 1 bps is not accurate enough for that piano and you have to retune all of your 5ths/4ths, hoping this time you'll be more lucky.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
If this is done carefully the beat speed of the resulting m3 or M6 from the first four notes (three intervals) can be used as a reliable guide until nine notes are tuned


You have to tune 4 notes before having a 3rd or a 6th and then you have nothing to compare it to. This barely tells us something usefull. We can not say if this third or sixth is tempered correctly to fit the octave we have already tuned.


Edited by Gadzar (01/12/10 12:26 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347657 - 01/12/10 12:40 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Come on now, have some patience. I said hopefully I will post a sequence tomorrow. But maybe I shouldn't bother if you have a closed mind about it. Perhaps what you have stated in the OP is not sincere. Do you really want to know how tuners tune ET with 4ths and 5ths or do you want posts for personal cannon fodder? It seems I have objected to the parameters that you have put on such a sequence for good reason.

Besides, the Sanderson-Baldassin sequence has six notes after the initial set of CM3s that must be adjusted back and forth until the fourths are correct. I do not hear you deriding this sequence. Other sequences that require estimates and refinements may be in good company.

(Oh, see you tomorrow tonight. A van driven by a volunteer will come by to take you to the corner of Third and Sixth about 6:30. smile )
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1347672 - 01/12/10 12:59 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
With the CM3rds you are initially guessing also. You are simply "guessing" and adjusting less intervals before you fill in the gaps. With 4ths and 5ths method it takes experience and lots of practice to effectively get a quick temperament. With the younger generation tending to avoid things that do not bring instant results or gratification, the 4ths and 5ths method is probably becoming relegated to the past.


You know Emmery, I would not say that I have ever been able to get a quick temperament. I suppose I am just picky. But I remember being able to get a good temperament the very first time I tried the BW sequence. The problem I soon had was dealing with jumps in iH, which the BW sequence points out, not covers over. Once I understood what the problem really was and how to deal with it (by reading this Forum!) I was able to be satisfied with the results. To me, that is the power of 4ths and 5ths tuning. It demands high accuracy. If there is an error, whether in tuning or scaling, a 4ths and 5ths temperament will point it out.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1347859 - 01/12/10 04:38 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Jeff, I was speaking generically about it being regulated to the past, not because it doesn't work, but because people feel there is a short cut around it. It is not an easy way to learn to tune temperaments. Still it was taught and learned by many a tuners in the past and yes, you are correct about the accuracy it demands and the lessons that it teaches us.
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#1348079 - 01/12/10 09:13 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
I am sincere. I really want to know how non CM3 sequences work their way to true ET.

Only that I have not yet found a good one!
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Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1348090 - 01/12/10 09:38 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
About Sanderson-Baldassin sequence. Yes there are six notes to tune, after the CM3 set, in order to have correct fourths.

set of CM3 = F3-A3-C#4-F4-A4
six notes (fourths) = A#3, F#3, B3 and G#3, C4, G3

What I love of this sequence is that after these six notes are tuned the piano tells you if fourths are too wide or too narrow and by how much. You know exactly how much and in which direction you have to adjust them. And, again, it was the piano who told you all that. You make an estimate and then you see if it was correct. If not, you exactly know how to correct it.

Up to this point of the sequence, the piano has told you the correct width of 3rds and 4ths and now you have a nice, correct and accurate nine note minitemperament from which you can easyly tune the rest of the temperament octave without any surprises.

In opposition what I've seen in 5th/4th sequences is that you have tuned nine notes and you have little idea on how to improve them.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1348402 - 01/13/10 08:25 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Here is a tidbit while I work on the sequence, it may not be done today after all.

When going around the circle of fifths every note is tuned after twelve steps, of course. So any interval or combinations of intervals can be defined after a certain number of steps. Now, guess how many steps it takes to tune a set of CM3s, or perhaps better to say, an augmented chord? Nine steps.

So if you care to look at it this way, a fourth and fifth tuning also uses a set of CM3s and that can be used to show the errors that any other set of CM3s can show. But since six other notes are also tuned on the way there are a multitude of checks available. These additional checks can be used not only to refine the set of CM3s, but to determine if the set of CM3s would be better tuned with an uneven beat rate ratio. But wait there’s more! (Now how much would you pay? smile ) These additional checks allow “the piano to tell us” the correct relationship between the m3s and M3s, the relationship between the 4ths and 5ths, and even the best octave for the temperament.

No, it isn’t simple. It is not for everyone. But it can be done and some tuners prefer it. I am not sure I want to try to explain all of it, because much of it I understand intuitively as spreading the comma, which is what tuning the temperament really is all about. I will do what I can by describing the order of notes to tune (duh) and the major checks that must be satisfied.
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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1349182 - 01/14/10 04:41 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
One example is the Franz Möhr sequence. The arrow points to the note been tuned:

A4<-Fork
A3<-A4
A3->E4
B3<-E4
B3->F#4
C#4<-F#4

After 4 fiths/fourths tuned we finally have our first M3 (A3-C#4) to check the tempering of our fifths/fourths. Questions arise: how do we know if this M3 is correct? It must have a known beat rate? Maybe 9 bps, or 8 bps? or 8.5 bps? (which would be against the "let the piano tell you" approach). Doesn't this beat rate will change with the iH of the piano been tuned? If we decide this M3 is wrong, how can we adjust our fifths/fourths? Are all of this fifths/fourths wrong or only one of them? or two? or three? too wide? or too narrow?

We continue the sequence:

C#4->G#4
D#4<-G#4

Our second M3 (B3-D#4) is now tuned, but it is not contiguous to the first one. However it can be compared to A3-C#4 which must beat slower. If it is so: good! If not, what should be done? How many of the four notes involved A3, B3, C#4, D#4 are wrong? In what direction? As some of these four notes are the result of several fifths/fourths tuned before how can we adjust those fifths/fourths?

Let's continue:

A#3<-D#4
A#3->F4

Voilà! After 10 notes tuned we are done! We have a set of CM3: A3-C#4-F4-A4. Although a bit incomplete because we don't have F3, but at least now we can adjust C#4 and F4 to have an even progression of beats in the CM3s and from there we can retouch the other 6 tuned notes.

Question:

Why not to tune directly the set of CM3 from the begining?

I mean :

A4<-fork
A3<-A4
A3->C#4
C#4->F4

What is the benefit of tuning all those fifths/fourths in between?




Edited by Gadzar (01/14/10 05:22 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1349186 - 01/14/10 05:33 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
I wonder, maybe the answer to that question is: INERTIA.

According to what Owen Jorgensen says in his book "Tuning", tuners of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries did not used to count beats of the fast beating intervals which were used only as tests listening only at their colour. So, sequences as the Franz Möhr's were mandatory.

Today, thirds and sixths can be tuned directly so there is no need to build them from fifths/fourths, as it is done in meantone temperings.

Techniques have evolved since then!


Edited by Gadzar (01/14/10 05:43 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#1349206 - 01/14/10 07:38 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Here is the sequence I have been using to tune. It probably does not fit the parameters that you asked for, but then I don’t think any sequence that tunes ET does.

For brevity, I will not mention what octave any note is in. This is an F3-F4 temperament. Only the F is repeated and which octave can be determined by context. Nor will the intervals be mentioned, just the notes. Also for brevity, I will not detail which way to correct for intervals. I am sure you know which intervals are wide and which are narrow.

The mention of beat rates is always for approximate, whole number, beat per second. The progression of the beat rates is what is important, but if a particular beat rate is far off from what is expected then the previous note(s) can be checked for errors without going further.

When tuning a fifth, the beat rate is about ½ bps, but what should be listened for is the “color” of the fifths. An even color between fifths is the goal as it indicates that the comma is spread evenly. This should also produce a general progression in the beat rates of the fifths. There is a valuable test for the 6:4 partial match of the fifth that is more objective than listening to color. The m3 should beat about 1 bps faster than the M3 in a minor triad constructed with a fifth.

When tuning a fourth, the beat rate is about 1 bps. There is some “color” to a fourth, but it may be easier to strive for a general progression. Contiguous fourths should beat progressively. The test for a fourth is the well known M3-M6 test. The M6 should beat about 1bps faster than the M3.

Listening to a fourth and a fifth with a common note is another good test. The fourth should always be “busier”. Being able to hear just how much “busier” is helpful.

Of course m3s, M3s, and M6s should beat progressively faster, unless straddling a jump in iH. Then there may be some unprogressiveness.

Regardless of the iH or stretch, the M6 outside M3 inside equal beating test is valid, with the exception of when only the M6 straddles a jump in iH. Then the M6 may beat faster than the M3. The companion m3 – M3 test is also useful, but not usually equal beating. Because of iH G-A# should beat faster than C-E; it should beat about the same as D#-F. Again, if one of these intervals straddles a jump in iH then there will be a difference in the comparison. These tests show whether the fourths and fifths that produced the RBI intervals are tempered the same, not whether they are tempered correctly.

I suppose that describing how I set the temperament is like trying to describe how to ride a bicycle. Once you know how, it makes sense. But it may not make sense until the skill of hearing the tempering (not just hearing the beats) of fourths and fifths is learned. This may require natural aptitude, and might not be possible for everyone.

1. Tune C to a pitch source.

2. Tune Fs to C.

3. Tune A# to Fs

4. Tune G to C. Check G-A#. This is the speed that no M3 should beat faster than, about 11 bps.

5. Tune D to G. Check F-D about 8 bps. Check A#-D about 9 bps.

6. Tune A to D. Check F-A about 7 bps.

7. Tune E to A. Check G-E about 9 bps and C-E about 10 bps and slower than G-A#.

8. Tune B to E. Check G-B beats the same as F-D. Check B-D is faster than A-C.

9. Tune F# to B. Be sure F#-B beats slower than B-E.

This is where a small but consistent error in the width of the fourths and fifths may be discovered because it is the first place where a note that is being tuned is a M3 below a previously tuned note..

Check progression of F#-A# with F-A and G-B. Generally if F#-A# is too fast then the fourths and fifths are too wide. If adjustments are made to any of these notes, or when deciding which of these notes should be adjusted: Check progression of F#-A to G-A#. Check F#-A beats the same as C-E. Check G-B beats the same as F-D. Check progression of F-D to G-E. Check progression of F#-A# to A#-D to C-E. Check progression of A-C to B-D.

Listen to the color of all fifths. Listen to the general progression of fourths. Listen to the difference between fourths and fifths with a common note. Make any and all adjustments necessary before continuing. Then the rest of the notes should fall into place.

If there is a jump in iH, these multitudes of checks should show that the RBIs may need to be unprogressive across the jump. If things do not work at all, especially after making some adjustments, check that all fourths and fifths are tempered wide and narrow, respectively.

10. Tune C# to F#. Be sure A#-C# beats faster than A-C and slower than B-D.

This is the first place that a note is tuned as m3 above an already tuned note and, like F#-G#, can be used to discover a small but consistent error in the tempering of the fourths and fifths.

Check A-C# beats the same as G-E. Check that C#-F beats the same as G-A# and faster than C-E.

11. Tune G# to C#. Check G#-C is progressive with G-B and A-C#. Check G#-F is faster than G-E.

12. Tune D# to G# and A#. Check B-D# is progressive with A#-D and C-E. Check F#-D# is progressive with F-D and G-E. Check F#-D# beats the same as G#-C.

Check progression of all M3s and M6s. Check each note with its fourth(s) and fifth. Listen to all outside M6 inside M3 checks and the companion m3-M3 checks.

All:

I am posting this first thing this morning so that any typos may be noted and corrected while I can still make edits. PROOF READERS ARE WELCOME!


Edited by UnrightTooner (01/14/10 08:58 AM)
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#1349213 - 01/14/10 07:56 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

I won't speak for Mr. Mohr, but I have posted many times why I don't tune with CM3s. Here is a summary:

They are not accurate enough for me.

When small errors are later discovered it leads to both of the notes in the original CM3 that are tuned to the first note of the sequence, but there is no way to tell which or both have an error.

They require that an arbitrary octave width be decided and accurately tuned a number of times. Choosing an arbitrary octave width is telling the piano, not letting the piano tell you. Any error in tuning the octaves will affect the accuracy of the CM3s. And a particular piano may be tuned better without identical octaves.

They do not make the compromise I desire for jumps in iH.

I can hear how the string is rendering better when tuning an SBI because of its slow beat which leads to better stability and, of course, better accuracy in the temperament.

The sound I desire is when all fourths and fifths are smoothly tempered. That is best done by tuning with these intervals, not with RBIs.
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#1349250 - 01/14/10 09:08 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Gadzar:

I won't speak for Mr. Mohr, but I have posted many times why I don't tune with CM3s. Here is a summary:

They are not accurate enough for me.

When small errors are later discovered it leads to both of the notes in the original CM3 that are tuned to the first note of the sequence, but there is no way to tell which or both have an error.

They require that an arbitrary octave width be decided and accurately tuned a number of times. Choosing an arbitrary octave width is telling the piano, not letting the piano tell you. Any error in tuning the octaves will affect the accuracy of the CM3s. And a particular piano may be tuned better without identical octaves.

They do not make the compromise I desire for jumps in iH.

I can hear how the string is rendering better when tuning an SBI because of its slow beat which leads to better stability and, of course, better accuracy in the temperament.

The sound I desire is when all fourths and fifths are smoothly tempered. That is best done by tuning with these intervals, not with RBIs.




Jeff, an elegant solution to this is let the first 4th-5ths gives you the size of that octave, then make your ladder of thirds.

WHen you have smoothly tempered you 4th and 5ths you know what speed the RBI are, but you dont need to do all the sequence to know that.

By evidence if you listen to 4th and 5trhs you know where the limits are, afterthat using the RBI is mostly avery fast method to follow in that progression.

nevermind the exact speed of the FA M3d, for instance, (kind of 6.8 Bps on that model, and 7.1 on that other) it may fall in place that is the only important thing (and not be too slow, or too fast, but with time you get a feel for that too, as for 5ths behaviour.

talking of accuracy, if you need to tighten a little a SBI, you shim a beat in an unison of a RBI, or raise one of the FBI used as checks for your SBI so accuracy is on the RBI side is not it ?.


Edited by Kamin (01/14/10 09:11 AM)
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#1349260 - 01/14/10 09:35 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Isaac:

I understand all that you posted and have already tried it. I still prefer what I do for the reasons I gave. Thanks.
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#1349267 - 01/14/10 09:49 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Offline
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Unright,

I think you didn't understood what I've said about Franz Möhr sequence.

I was illustrating what you said in your previous post. Möhr doesn't use the CM3 setting!

I said: One example (of what you say in your post) is the Franz Möhr sequence....

In your previous post you say:

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
So if you care to look at it this way, a fourth and fifth tuning also uses a set of CM3s


I took Möhr's sequence and applied your point of view about a series of fifths/fourths generating a set of CM3s.

But maybe my english is so poor that I can not explain myself...


Edited by Gadzar (01/14/10 09:50 AM)
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#1349280 - 01/14/10 10:14 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Now that you have posted your sequence (thank you), I can illustrate what I mean directly on it.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
1. Tune C to a pitch source.
2. Tune Fs to C.
3. Tune A# to Fs
4. Tune G to C. Check G-A#. This is the speed that no M3 should beat faster than, about 11 bps.


How do you check G-A#?
You have no other inerval to compare it with!
If you listen 11 bps, or 10.5, or 10 or whatever you hear, how do you know if it is correct or not?
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#1349307 - 01/14/10 11:06 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

I know G-A# is very, very close because I know what tempered fourths and fifths sound like. Then "the piano tells me" what the beat speed of G-A# is for how those fourths and fifths are tempered. Later this will be confirmed or not.

The G-A# is very, very close because of the interrelationships between the Fs, C, A# and G. In a way the resulting intervals are self checking much like a set of CM3s. If, for example, F-C is not tempered enough, C-F will not be tempered enough either unless F-F is too wide. And the relationship between F-A# and A#-F is also the P4-P5 test. The G-C is tempered similar to the other fourths and F-C is compared to A#-F. I think it requires that the tempering be perceived directly, not just the beat rates being compared.

Very, very close is all that can be expected from the first few notes that are tuned, even from CM3s.

I was reviewing BW yesterday. There is, of course, the table of theoretical beat rates. But when the sequence is explained the beat rates are rounded to the nearest whole number and are used to make sure that an SBI was not tempered wide when it should have been narrow, or used to assure a general progression of beat rates.

Contrary to what some may believe (and caused me to think along false lines), the idea is not to tune an RBI and then make fine corrections to the SBIs that formed it. The idea is that the tuner knows what a tempered SBI sounds like and then the progression of the RBIs are used as proof of ET not the absolute beat rates, even though they may have been believed to be always correct. (Which I have doubts about. The variance from theoretical beat rates may have been omitted because there was no explanation for it, and the precise beats rates really don't matter, especially for intervals that are used as checks.)

I do not know Mr. Mohr’s sequence, but perhaps you can see why I chose the order of my sequence to take advantage of which note completes the first augmented chord (CM3s) and the first diminished chord (Cm3s). There may be things about Mr. Mohr’s sequence that are not obvious from looking at just the order of notes. In any case, it worked for him.
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#1349513 - 01/14/10 03:11 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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I don't understand you.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
The idea is that the tuner knows what a tempered SBI sounds like and then the progression of the RBIs are used as proof of ET...


That is a "Tuner knows how" approach, not a "The piano tells you"

In short: you check with an interval, G-A#3, which beat rate is not relevant because you know how to temper fifths?

So what are you checking with G-A#3?


Edited by Gadzar (01/14/10 03:19 PM)
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#1349664 - 01/14/10 06:09 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
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a minor third - but whatever works ....the sequence is certainly useable but give no real size of the octave (seem to me )


Edited by Kamin (01/14/10 06:20 PM)
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#1349806 - 01/14/10 08:39 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I don't understand you.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
The idea is that the tuner knows what a tempered SBI sounds like and then the progression of the RBIs are used as proof of ET...


That is a "Tuner knows how" approach, not a "The piano tells you"

In short: you check with an interval, G-A#3, which beat rate is not relevant because you know how to temper fifths?

So what are you checking with G-A#3?


I have worked with dozens upon dozens of students who have tried and tried to use a 4ths & 5th sequence. They all knew 4ths & 5ths should be tempered but that is about all they knew. They never could even get close to using the fine checks which are necessary to make a 4ths & 5ths sequence work. Using CM3s just seemed to work better for them and many have gone on to pass the exam.

Here is an e-mail I received just today. It is now the 5th person who says they now plan to take the tuning exam using the ET via Marpurg at the PTG convention next summer. He is already a fine and professional technician who learned to tune using an ETD but is also determined to pass the exam and become an RPT. Yes, it is an anecdote but I feel it is a timely anecdote to this topic.

"Hello Bill,

I don't know if you will remember me but I have taken two tuning tutors from you during the last two PTG conventions. Last year was a special one you did for me right before my tuning exam. [I took him outside of my already full schedule without compensation of any kind for it].

As you may remember I failed part one by 4 points because I didn't pay close enough attention to the very edges of my midsection. C3 and B4. I did get a 90 on my temperament sequence. [He had used the "CM3s, then Up a third, down a 5th" sequence which was written and published in 2003].

I am writing you this note to tell you how excited I am by the new articles on Marpurg. I have been trying the sequence and it is a perfect fit for me. I am getting outstanding results using it. I do make a few fine tunings once the sequence is complete but I am sure with my next take of the tuning exam part 1 I will score very near 100 percent on the temperament. The speed with which I can tune my temperament will also allow me more time for the extended mid range.

I am also teaching it to my young apprentice and hope that he will be able to incorporate your ideas into his own temperament journey. [This is very encouraging to me because it is my hope that other technicians will teach the idea too].

Thank you for all your hard work and the articles you are doing in the journal. Please keep me in mind because I intend to take you for that beer we were going to drink at last years convention this next year.

With my warmest regards,

Steven [last name omitted for privacy]
[a city in Texas, omitted again for privacy]"

What I have read from the comments here seems to agree with Rafael's observations: using a 4ths and 5ths temperament successfully requires a high degree of skill. The piano does not tell, the tuner what is right, the tuner tells the piano what is right. If there is an irregular scale, what the tuner tells the piano doesn't work and the conclusion is that the piano cannot be tuned. In turn, that leads to the proclamation that only certain brands and sizes of pianos are worth tuning and all others are beneath the dignity of the technician to to even accept.

That is the case of Franz Mohr, or course, surely one of the finest technicians there ever was. But where does that leave all other technicians who can't be Steinway & Sons chief technician? Where does that leave all the other technicians who tried to take the tuning exam but failed it? What does it say about how close to clinical ET all of the RPTs who passed the exam but only barely within tolerance? What does it say about those who passed with a score of 90 which is considered superior? They still had 4 significant errors between 1.0 and 1.9 cents.

How could all of these possibilities still all be the perfect ET that so many technicians not only aspire to but assume is performed every day, by virtually every piano technician all over the world and always has been? Isn't it possible that at least some of these temperaments which aren't really a perfect ET exhibit the characteristics of reverse well?

Isn't it also possible that the temperaments tuned by those who can't manage to tune a clinically perfect ET actually quite consistently exhibit the characteristics of reverse well? Isn't it possible that this has been done for an entire century or more and that all recipients of it accepted it as a "piano tuning" (presumed to be and accepted as ET)?

If so, what is the reason why a 4ths & 5ths temperament has not worked for so many people? If CM3s are also just guessing, why is it that so many more technicians pass successfully when they use them? Why do their temperaments, even those with errors typically not exhibit the characteristics of reverse well?
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#1350056 - 01/15/10 12:46 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kamin
a minor third - but whatever works ....the sequence is certainly useable but give no real size of the octave (seem to me )



I know he's checking a m3, that's obvious. But what is less obvious is how he's checking it. He says only that this m3 is the fastest interval in the sequence at 11 bps approximately.

When we make a test we always compare two intervals to see if they are equal beating or if one beats a little faster than the other. But here we are comparing G3-A#3 m3 to nothing but an arbitrary figure of 11 bps which may change dependig on the iH of the piano.

So what can we conclude by listening to this m3? It won't tell us if the fifths previously tuned are correctly tempered.


Edited by Gadzar (01/15/10 12:55 AM)
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#1350108 - 01/15/10 01:39 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Thanks Bill.

My English is so poor that I have a lot of pain to express my ideas clearly. But you seem to understand well what I am trying to say.


When learning the CM3 setting, I had a bad time to tune F3. Nobody was able to explain me how to accurately tune F3, until I read your article on tuning the midrange and discovered how the sequence is self-correcting.

The same thing is happening now to me with the correct tempering of fifths/fourths.

Each time I pose the question I receive the same vague inaccurate answer: experience and a lot of practice.

That is why I ask here if there isn't a sequence "experience free" in which the piano tells us how much tempering is correct for a fifth in ET.

All the posters that have participated in this thread say that an experienced tuner can tune correct fifths, but none of them can explain how it is done! And that’s what makes me doubt if they do indeed tune right tempered fifths.

I believe they really don’t. Not at least directly. They have to do a little guessing and then use some other resources to refine them. That’s why they can’t explain beyond “experience and a lot of practice“.


I like the way you, Bill, have putted it: "the tuner tells the piano" vs "the piano tells the tuner".

You give me some light when you say that there are bad scaled pianos for which what "the tuner says" doesn't work. These are the pianos I usually tune (mostly Wurlitzer spinets). I seldom tune fine pianos, so I need a sequence which will work right, even for bad scaled pianos.

I think that's one of the reasons why I prefer now WT over ET. In particular Moore and EBVT III which play well in all keys and sound fine even in small spinets.

I am not saying I can not tune ET in those little beasts, only that I can not do it using a fifths/fourths based sequence. I used to successfully tune ET for almost two years using CM3 based sequences in which the piano tells me what it needs.

I’ve heard Franz Möhr have tuned only Steinway & Sons pianos for many years, no other brand. I believe he even only tuned Ds and Bs, no small pianos. I wonder if he would use the same approach, same sequence and same tests to tune a Betsy Lester spinet.





Edited by Gadzar (01/15/10 03:09 AM)
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#1350121 - 01/15/10 02:08 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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I use the same techniques to tune a Betsy Ross spinet as I use on Steinway D. Tuning is tuning, it is the art of making the intervals sound the way they are supposed to sound.
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#1350148 - 01/15/10 03:17 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: BDB]
Gadzar Offline
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Oh yeah!

It's the same thing: a D and an Estey spinet! The intervals sound the same in both, just the way they are supposed to sound. Particularly in the bass!


Edited by Gadzar (01/15/10 03:18 AM)
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#1350151 - 01/15/10 03:25 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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Well, it is easier on the D. But that is why people like what I do on the difficult pianos.
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#1350157 - 01/15/10 03:38 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: BDB]
Gadzar Offline
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BTW BDB,

You have not said what you do on the difficult (and easyer) pianos.

Do you use a fifths/fourths based sequence?
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#1350171 - 01/15/10 04:01 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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On the more difficult pianos, I tune contiguous thirds, fourths and fifths between one major third, and contiguous thirds to fill in the rest of the fourths and fifths, with the addition of tests from the Travis method. The all-important final step is to check everything afterwards. Note that I say I use tests that are based on Travis' method, rather than using his method exactly. Also note that I do not say what note I start with. Once you develop the method and understand the method, none of that stuff matters. You can start anywhere and do things in different orders. The final result is what matters, and that is a result of the final check.

On the easier pianos, I tune contiguous thirds, fourths and fifths between one major third, and contiguous thirds to fill in the rest of the fourths and fifths, with the addition of tests from the Travis method. The all-important final step is to check everything afterwards. Note that I say I use tests that are based on Travis' method, rather than using his method exactly. Also note that I do not say what note I start with. Once you develop the method and understand the method, none of that stuff matters. You can start anywhere and do things in different orders. The final result is what matters, and that is a result of the final check.

For those who are not familiar with the Travis method, he tuned contiguous thirds, and then a fourth, and contiguous thirds from that, comparing with his original thirds. I feel it is better to fill a third with fourths and fifths, and once you have done this, you can compare the rest of the fourths and fifths with the thirds that you have tuned initially.

Lots and lots of checks, not just in the initial temperament octave, but everywhere you tune, makes for a very well-tuned piano.
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#1350175 - 01/15/10 04:11 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: BDB]
Gadzar Offline
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So there is another CM3s tuner.

I am afraid there is no "let the piano tell you" sequence based on fifths/fourths tempering.
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#1350236 - 01/15/10 07:29 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: BDB]
UnrightTooner Offline
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All:

I can only say what I do and why I do it. I cannot say what others do what they do or why they get the results they do.

If the very first time you tried to set a temperment the sequence worked, most any one would favor that sequence. That is the case with me and BW. I have made just the modification of including F4 and A#3 at the beginning of the sequence.

The sequences that include CM3s all sound wonderful, but do not work as well for me.

To me, setting an octave to start with without listening to its effects on the sound of the fourths and fifths is the tuner telling the piano, not the piano telling the tuner. And setting the octave is always done before tuning fourths and fifths in CM3 sequences.

I cannot explain what properly tempered fourths and fifths sounds like. If you don’t know, it would be best not to try to tune with them.
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#1350254 - 01/15/10 08:18 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

It seems again that you had already decided that what you are asking for does not exist in fourth and fifth tuning. Of course “the piano tells you” for any sequence if a true ET is the result. What else could tell you? The question is: in what part of the sequence is the piano telling you?

Perhaps your thinking is locked into the glib statement of “let the piano tell you” meaning what it was meant to convey in whatever article it came from. Which seems to be that fourth and fifth tuning is about arbitrarily choosing beat rates for intervals which are then used to adjust the fourths and fifths. If you look at fourth and fifth tuning as distributing the comma so that all RBIs are progressive you may see that “the piano tells you” if you are tempering correctly.

In a fourth and fifth tuning (and perhaps all sequences), the ninth note is what proves if things have gone correctly. As I said in an earlier post, “I know G-A# is very, very close because I know what tempered fourths and fifths sound like. Then "the piano tells me" what the beat speed of G-A# is for how those fourths and fifths are tempered. Later this will be confirmed or not.” Comparing F#-A# to F-A and G-B is how “the piano tells me” if the fourths and fifths are correct. And when the fourths and fifths are correct. then the intervals that they create are correct. It is about beat progression, not beat rates. And, yes, it takes nine notes or eight fourths or fifths to get to that point. That requires great accuracy, but I think you have to be able hear the tempering of fourths and fifths, not just their beats.

Let me add some comments so you can understand the value of G-A# in the sequence. A m3 is made from 2 fourths and 1 fifth. A M3 is made from 2 fourths and 2 fifths. A M6 is made from 1 fourth and 2 fifths. If there is a tendency to tune the fifths insufficiently tempered it will show up more in comparing a m3 to a M3 than it will comparing a M6 to an M3. And by checking the one fifth that is used to form the m3 with an octave and a fourth, the m3 can be consider to be tuned with 3 fourths and an octave - the octave that “the piano tells you” is correct because of how the fourths and fifths sound. So now there is a limit for how fast the M3s can beat and will point out any tendency for the fifths to not be tempered enough. This is especially valuable when tuning E. If C-E is not slower than G-A#, then the place to look is in the fifths that form C-E: G-D and A-E. Notice that these are not involved in the tuning of G-A# and, of course, C can be depended upon as it is the starting note. After E is verified by having made sure C-E beats slower than G-A#, the next 2 intervals are fourths and brings us to the ninth note without tuning any more fifths.

I don’t think you will benefit from this post; I can only hope other readers might. I continue to think that the purpose of this Topic is to bash, not understand, fourth and fifth tuning.
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#1353777 - 01/19/10 11:32 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
I cannot explain what properly tempered fourths and fifths sounds like. If you don’t know, it would be best not to try to tune with them.


How can I understand what the "piano is telling me" when tuning a fifth, if even an experienced fifth's tuner like you can not explain how it should sound like?

What you say about a m3 being two fourths and 1 fifth; and a M3 being 2 fourths and 2 fifths sounds interesting however and much less arbitrary than tuning 0.5 bps narrow fifths and 1 bps wide fourths.

If you prefer to tune the octave by tuning the 4th + 5th and 5th + 4th, (instead of tuning it directly by testing 6:3 and 4:2 types), I have no objection: yes, you are tuning a good sounding octave, taking into account partials 2, 3, 4 and 6 of the notes involved.

But the the question is still blowing in the wind: how do we tune fourths and fifths?

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
In a fourth and fifth tuning (and perhaps all sequences), the ninth note is what proves if things have gone correctly. As I said in an earlier post, “I know G-A# is very, very close because I know what tempered fourths and fifths sound like. Then "the piano tells me" what the beat speed of G-A# is for how those fourths and fifths are tempered. Later this will be confirmed or not.” Comparing F#-A# to F-A and G-B is how “the piano tells me” if the fourths and fifths are correct. And when the fourths and fifths are correct. then the intervals that they create are correct.



Yes, if they are correct, but what happens if they happen to not be correct?

You say it takes 10 notes to have an answer, and that is too much to know how to correct them. There are too many intervals to tweak to have a right progression of FBI's.


Edited by Gadzar (01/20/10 12:14 AM)
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#1353811 - 01/20/10 12:21 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Jim Moy Offline
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If I may interject, I believe what Rafael means when he says "let the piano tell you," is something specific, and that is a sequence by which the following occurs:
  • Octave width in the temperament area is chosen ahead of time.
  • Two octaves are tuned, with one or two overlapping M3rds, one of which is initially estimated.
  • The note between the remaining two M3rds is adjusted such that the beat rate of the middle of the three contiguous M3rds is "in-between" the two outer ones.
  • Once the middle M3rd beat rate is discovered, the piano has "told you" how wide it should be, for the given octave widths, and for the iH of the piano in that range.
  • Given the fixed octave widths, the rest of the M3rd beat rates "fall out" naturally when tuned for smoothly increasing beat rates, as do the beat rates of the 4/5ths.
So the question about whether a similar sequence exists for 4/5ths tuners is one of strategy. In the steps I describe above, the octave widths are chosen ahead of time with the assumption that you can make a wise choice (how that happens is another topic), and given that assumption, the rest of the sequence can be performed mechanically, and produce good results.

My impression is that with 4/5ths tuning, the high level strategy is different, that one does not choose octave widths as a high level guide, and therefore such a sequence may not exist, hence Rafael's query.
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#1353842 - 01/20/10 01:22 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Jim Moy]
Thomas Dowell Offline
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Has anyone looked at Virgil Smith's temperment? I'm not sure if it's a 4ths/5ths method, per se, but you work with the A3-A4 octave, guess F3, use 4/5 for the D octave, and then use a fourth for the speed of the a major third. I know it's complicated, but I'm not sure if I'd be breaking any rules by copying a copyrighted work on a public domain. His book is only $7 or something.

I don't personally use this, but I thought it does bridge a few gaps.

Regards.
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#1353924 - 01/20/10 08:02 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Thomas Dowell]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

I can no more tell you what properly tempered 4ths and 5ths sound like than I could tell you what the color blue looks like. But I could point to the sky and tell you that is the color blue. And if you are not color blind, you will know what I mean. And you can listen to a well tuned piano to see what properly tempered 4ths and 5ths sound like. But if you do not recognize the tempering (which is really best discerned while tuning) and only hear beats, then you will not know what I mean.

Jim:

If what you described is what Gadzar is really asking about, then he would recognize that a 4ths and 5ths sequence does the same thing as a CM3 sequence, but in more steps (which adds accuracy). This is why I do not believe that is the purpose of this Topic. And when starting out there is no reason that a 4ths and 5ths sequence cannot be used with a predetermined octave or a predetermined 12th or a predetermined 17th.

Tdowel:

I know that Virgil Smith’s sequence is on the internet already. I believe I saw it on this Forum. If I remember right, it starts with a specific beat rate, or color, for an initial 5th. I think there may be more to this that I thought at first. With a shorter piano this will produce a narrower octave than on a larger piano which is exactly what you want! It was posted recently about a master tuning committee having difficulty in discerning the difference between the 4:2 and 6:3 octave on a particular piano because of low iH. Perhaps a wider than 6:3 would have been best on this piano and could have been obtained through using a predetermined 5th instead of a predetermined octave. Thanks for putting this thought in my head!

[Edit:] Maybe that is just what I am doing but didn't realise it....


Edited by UnrightTooner (01/20/10 08:49 AM)
Edit Reason: added comment
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#1354012 - 01/20/10 10:39 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Thomas Dowell]
Jim Moy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tdowel
...Virgil Smith's temperment ... you work with the A3-A4 octave, guess F3, use 4/5 for the D octave, and then use a fourth for the speed of the a major third...

Yes, I have his book, but have not studied his sequence in much detail (was more interested in his approach and philosophy).

I do not get the impression it is a 4/5th's temperament per-se. More that he uses all the interval checks he thinks appropriate to get the balances he wants. For example, in the part you referenced, his actual text is:

Originally Posted By: Virgil Smith
Tune D3 and D4 to A3 until: a) octave is beatless, b) D3-F3 m3rd beats faster than F3-A3 M3rd, but slower than F3-D4 M6th, c) D3-A3 5th beats slightly slower than A3-D4 4th, and d) F3-A3 M3rd beats slower than F3-D4 M6th.

I'm sure I'll get around to trying the sequence out, but I'm still working on my ET and EBVT aurally, and that's enough for me to wrestle with for now shocked
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#1354044 - 01/20/10 11:45 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

Maybe I am being unnecessarily rough on you. Let me try an apologetic approach.

In any given CM3 sequence, how many notes, after the initial set of CM3s, must be tuned before any of these additional notes are verified?

What is the total number of notes that have been tuned at that point?

How does this number compare with a 4th and 5th sequence?

You have posted, “You say it takes 10 notes to have an answer, and that is too much to know how to correct them. There are too many intervals to tweak to have a right progression of FBI's.”

How many notes are too many?

Why wouldn’t one know how to correct them?

Can there be too many intervals to tweak if the result is a right progression of FBIs?
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#1354639 - 01/21/10 08:27 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
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All:

I did some checking on a simulator. Setting the 4ths to 1 bps and the 5ths to ½ bps in the temperament gives an appropriate octave width for a given inharmonicity. For a large piano this is between a 6:3 and a 4:2 octave. For a small piano it is a 4:2 octave.

The more arguments I hear against 4th and 5th tuning, the more I am convinced of my choice after further study. But I understand that others will confirm their different choices in consideration of their own personal preferences and experiences.

Still, you can’t go far wrong with 1 bps 4ths and ½ bps 5ths in the temperament. BW was right again, but again for the wrong reason.
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#1354651 - 01/21/10 08:48 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Jeff, I am itching to see how well the student I will tutor on Saturday does with his BW style temperament. He says he has studied it for 5 years now. Quite frankly, I am not very hopeful. I am going to record the numeric values of what he comes up with for discussion. If he does well, fine, I will work with him on what he can do but if the results are what I expect them to be and he has little or no understanding of how to improve upon it, I will take another approach and that will most definitely start with the CM3s.
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#1354654 - 01/21/10 08:56 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Bill:

I hope it will be a good tutoring session for both of you. I know I am in the minority, but that is nothing new.

Do you understand or agree with the beat speeds of SBIs being able to set the proper octave width for a piano's iH?
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#1355048 - 01/21/10 08:00 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Bill:
Do you understand or agree with the beat speeds of SBIs being able to set the proper octave width for a piano's iH?


I am sorry, I do not. That would be an example of the tuner trying to tell the piano what to do and the piano may say, "No, I am doing my own thing."
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#1355119 - 01/21/10 10:33 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Phil D Offline
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I'd like to contribute a little to this discussion, as the way I have been taught to tune may shed a bit of light on the question of the piano telling you how much to temper 4ths and 5ths.

I've learnt to tune a F - E temperament. There are no octaves involved in my temperament whatsoever. I use a C4 523.3 tuning fork, and tune C3 to it using an A#3 equal beating test with the fork and the C3 note. I'm beginning to realise this may be the a large source of inaccuracy in the temperament, but this is not relevant to this discussion. Let's assume that this C3 is tuned accurately.

My basic sequence is tuning F3-C3, then G3-C3, D3-G3 and A3-D3 using predefined beat rates. The 4th is set at 1bps, which (I don't know much about theoretical analysis of iH) seems to hold true for very nearly all pianos. But the salient point here which I think sheds a bit of light on the situation, is the tempering of the 5ths. I learned to use the 6:4 partial match to temper the 5ths, with an initial estimate of 3bps. 3bps is a very easy beat rate to estimate in your head, and also a lot easier to perceive than possibly 1/2 a beat a second, which has a massive margin for error. 3.5bps sounds wrong, as does 2.5, but both produce a similar beat rate on the 3:2 partial match.
After tuning the first four intervals, there is M6 - M3 test to see what is what. The check here is the 8bps M6. 8bps is very easy to count by subdividing the second, and 8 holds true as a beat rate for very nearly all pianos. Our teacher taught us this rate holds true even when there is a jump in iH such as there being a wound string on the F. I've tuned good temperaments on spinets using this method and I support this view.

So on checking the 8bps M6, and comparing for a slightly slower M3, we can see whether our two initial 5ths are correct. The pianos we learnt on were average height uprights, Welmars. On those pianos, if the 6:4 was at 3bps on the 5ths, and the 4ths were at 1bps, the M6th would be 8bps. So any error was obvious. As long as the 4th was at 1bps, I knew if the M6th was slow, the 5ths were too narrow, if the 6th too fast, the 5ths too pure.

But what about on other pianos with different iH?

On smaller pianos with higher iH, this sends the 6:4 partials further up the piano, and so increases their beat rate for a correctly tempered 5th. The way this manifests is by the F3-D3 6th still being too slow when the 4th has been confirmed at 1bps and the 5ths confirmed at 3bps on the 6:4 and both even. This is then addressed by slightly increasing the 6:4 beat rates on the 5ths, evenly. Only a slight change is needed, but this change is obvious against the 3bps pulse, and so easily done.

On larger pianos with lower iH, the converse is true. The 6:4 partials are flatter, and beat slower, so 3bps on the 6:4 partial will produce a fast F3-D3 M6. So the 5ths are widened until the 8bps is achieved.

After these rates are adjusted until the 8bps condition is met, and if the F3-A3 M3 is slightly slower than the M6 then I continue. After this, every new note produces a M3 or a M6 to check with the others.

Next is E3-A3, giving a G3-E3 6th which should be slightly faster than F3-D3 (about 1bps). Then B3-E3, giving our first inside M3 outside M6 check. If this holds we can move forward, if not, there is a systematic error somewhere.

I won't continue with the sequence as I realise it is getting rather verbose. But the point I am trying to get across is that the initial five notes after the fork note C3 let the piano tell us how much iH to allow for.

I believe this works very well using the 6:4 test, because of how low down the 3:2 partial match is on the series. This is also why I think the 1 bps 4th is very accurate. Changes in iH do not move the 4:3 partials enough so that 1bps is no longer accurate, nor do they move the 3:2 enough on the 5th. But a higher iH will push the 6:4 partials up noticeably, and the M6 and M3 checks show this to me. If the checks still tell me something is wrong even though the 5ths now seem to be at the right rate, only then do I look to the 4ths as a source of systematic error.

Of course it is impossible to tune 1bps 4ths completely accurately. There is no need. If every 4th matches the previous ones, and the first checks held, then if the checks continue to hold, the 4ths will be correct. The same with the 5ths. The tempering amount of the 5ths is found using the first few checks. The piano tells me how much to temper them.

After the temperament is set (B-E, B#-F, F#-B, C#-F#, G#-C#, D#-G#, B#-E# confirm) then the temperament itself sets the size of the octave. F4 is tuned to F3 according to what will give the best progression on the RBIs, and the best evenness with the SBIs. Simple as that.

This is how I believe the SBIs are "able to set the proper octave width for a piano's iH?"

This is also a "letting the piano tell you" 4ths & 5ths sequence, as far as I understand the term. It uses the pianos iH to correct your tempering of the 4ths and 5ths.

It does require some counting of beats, and bit of guesswork at the beginning, but only two notes need moving if the first M6 test seems wrong. And then if the M3 test also seems wrong, only 3 notes need moving, if the 4ths are right.
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#1355281 - 01/22/10 03:29 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Phil D]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
that is interesting, a first time to me to see a temperament without an initial octave (while I recall tuning sometime by 3ds and 4ths till the octave comes in, but on pianos i was acquainted with).

Yes may be A#2 should be better to test against C4 but aint less good than checking A440 with the 10th F3 A4.
if you are used to listen at higher partial ranges you may well compare the speed at the good level anyway (C5).

I am unsure to understand however if you are willing to get a "standard" beat rates which should apply to the RBI, or if this can be conceived that their speed will vary depending of the piano, as it is the case with methods that put emphasis on 4ths/5ths.

it seem to me more based toward a standard set of rate, with octaves as a result.

I like to heard that in real time. the tone may be a tad "greasy" , that's interesting (not criticizing there !) makes me think of the pop music piano, but may be I am plain wrong and it is adapted to resonance of the instrument afterthat by stretch. it is precise enough, anyway, good learning temperament.

What is the name of that tempering method ?

The EDT use one partial in the medium range, generally the 3d so they can put you in the ballpark and provide an even progression of 12ths or 5ths, but the RBI will not be as even then. Or you use the 4ths partial, the display is jumpy, and you have a smoother progression of RBI's.

They can be more accurate if they record the partial ladder of each note (during tuning) and recompute the tuning at that moment (Verituner's use that method).

I've always find that the justness of the 1 partial driven EDT give me the impression that the tuning is "holding by the noze" as some zones are purer than others and the display push you in its direction, slightly changing your global hearing and emotions.
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#1355393 - 01/22/10 09:10 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
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N a M:

Yes, that is quite a contribution. I am glad that you are willing to jump in.

The sequence of notes is straight BW (Braid White). The m3-M3 test for the 6:4 5th is additional, although is available by looking at any theoretical beat rate tables, which Dr. White suggests that tuners do.

What the tests and checks you mention for getting F-D correst are really based on is the relationship between the beat rates of M3s compared to M6s (which includes the test for 4:3 fourths) and the relationship between the beat rates of m3s compared to M3s (which includes the test for 6:4 fifths). A 3 bps difference between the m3 and M3 in a 6:4 fifth test seems way, way too much. This would cause F-G# to beat over 1 bps faster than G#-F which is the 6:3 octave test and would also indicate a very narrow 2:1 octave. Maybe you mean something else?

Also, even if F-D always beat 8 bps (which I respectfully disagree with), just how accurately can a person hear a difference between 8.00 bps and what an interval is actually beating? 1/10 bps? ¼ bps? ½ bps? And how accurate must the beat rate be in order to guarantee that the result will be that all M3s and M6s beat progressively, or at least to hope that all RBIs could beat progressively?

Here is how accurate. To guarantee all RBIs beat progressively the error must be less than 0.3 cents which is a difference of 0.15 bps. To hope that all RBIs could beat progressively the error must be less than 1 cent which is a difference of 0.5 bps. And since the theoretical beat rate of F-D is actually 7.92 bps, we are already half way to being unable to guarantee progressive M3s and M6s and one sixth the way to being unable to hope for progressiveness by using 8.00 bps as a standard.

I used to think just as you are thinking, including the value of the M3 inside M6 outside test. But after further study and review of Dr. White’s book, I realize that the difference between actual and theoretical beat rates is really not important after all because it is not the beat rates that are important but the beat rate progressions. Certainly if the beat rates while tuning are discernibly different than theoretical, then there is the opportunity to make corrections before continuing further. But until there is a set of three chromatic M3s (or possibly their m6 inversions) there are not enough notes to prove the progression is correct. On a straight BW sequence this happens on the tenth note when G# is tuned.

But then that is what I prefer about 4th and 5th tuning. It is right or it isn’t. Everything has to be right for the sequence to be right. With up a third, up a third, down a fifth, you can have four augmented chords (sets of CM3s) that are perfectly in tune to themselves and produces perfectly progressive M3s, but not have very progressive M6s or m3s and uneven sounding 4ths and 5ths. I suspect that those that use this method may listen more to the M3s than to M6s and m3s.
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#1355394 - 01/22/10 09:11 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Thanks Mongoose, that was interesting. It explains a thought process of 4ths & 5ths tempering better than I have ever seen it before and I am glad it works for you. You seem to understand what you are doing and you seem to get consistent and correct results and that is all anyone would be after.

Having said that, can you and everyone else see how a person who first learned to tune with an ETD but who now wants to take a tuning exam (where tuning the two central octaves aurally is required) would most likely not be able to follow that logic or learn that sequence very easily?

While I have seen many people pass those exams, I have also seen many failures. I have tried to find out why those people have failed and what other strategy may work better for them. I've also looked at exam master tunings of the same piano done by different committees that had different results and identified the reasons why the results were not closer to each other.

If I want to try to correct an attempt at ET or to bring an ET as close to perfection as humanly possible (such as starting with one technician's best attempt at an initial tuning which is then reviewed for a master tuning), it is always done by comparing the octave sizes of both A3-A4 and F3-F4 and then verifying the CM3s from F3 to A4. Until and unless those intervals are correct, none of the rest of the temperament will be.

It would not matter to me if the initial tuning had been done using 4ths & 5ths or with an ETD. The above points are those I would check and correct first. That would not involve any guessing whatsoever. What is the octave size of A3-A4? Is it a 4:2 or slightly larger? Either is OK within a certain margin. Now, without regard at this point to the CM3s, is the F3-F4 octave of the same or at least very similar type? If not, the temperament cannot be ET. One octave or the other must be changed in size so that they both have at least approximately the same width. If the CM3s don't fit after that, then they must be shifted so that they do.

After that, virtually any known sequence of checks and any combination of checks can be used to make the rest of the intervals fit within that framework. If, on the other hand, taking an extreme example but which I have seen more than a few times, the A3-A4 is wide enough to be a 6:3 octave (or close to it) but the F3-F4 octave is narrow enough to be a 2:1 (or close to it), the CM3s cannot possibly fit. 4ths & 5ths will not fit, all sounding similarly and M3s & M6s could not progress and digress evenly.

To me, this is how "the piano tells you". I cannot imagine the piano telling you in any other way. That expression, by the way is attributed to Jack Stebbins RPT who is the chief instructor at the North Bennett Street School in Boston. He has also been a tuning examiner for some 30 years. He teaches ET tuning using a CM3 approach and also conducts exam master tunings the same way I do. He has presented classes at numerous PTG conventions with that title.

One of the most amusing things I ever read on Pianotech was from a novice who said, "Somewhere, I read something about the piano being able to tell you when the temperament is correct or not. Well, I have been at this about 6 months now and so far, the piano ain't talking!" That was many years ago but I took it upon myself to show that technician just exactly how the piano can tell you when the temperament is correct or not. He quickly learned the method and became an RPT and has been ever since. He had first learned to tune with an ETD, had tried 4ths & 5ths tuning sequences but did very poorly. All it took to put him on the right path was to teach him a few very reliable techniques which work consistently well and he did just fine.
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#1355415 - 01/22/10 09:41 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: UnrightTooner]
Phil D Offline
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Registered: 01/15/10
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Thanks for the encouragement guys, I'm glad not to have been jumped on for putting my oar in! wink

Originally Posted By: kamin
I am unsure to understand however if you are willing to get a "standard" beat rates which should apply to the RBI, or if this can be conceived that their speed will vary depending of the piano, as it is the case with methods that put emphasis on 4ths/5ths.

The standard beat rates are used at the beginning of the temperament to give something to work from. When the sequence is complete and it is time to check through the progression of all the intervals, then I ignore the standard beat rates and concentrate on getting the smooth progressions. When all the intervals progress smoothly, they can be used to give a size for the F3-F4 octaves. The result, if done very well, sounds extremely good and very accurate.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
The sequence of notes is straight BW (Braid White). The m3-M3 test for the 6:4 5th is additional, although is available by looking at any theoretical beat rate tables, which Dr. White suggests that tuners do.

What the tests and checks you mention for getting F-D correst are really based on is the relationship between the beat rates of M3s compared to M6s (which includes the test for 4:3 fourths) and the relationship between the beat rates of m3s compared to M3s (which includes the test for 6:4 fifths). A 3 bps difference between the m3 and M3 in a 6:4 fifth test seems way, way too much. This would cause F-G# to beat over 1 bps faster than G#-F which is the 6:3 octave test and would also indicate a very narrow 2:1 octave. Maybe you mean something else?


I'm actually only vaguely aware of the m3-M3 test for 5ths. I think maybe I missed this part of the course. The 3bps I am referring to is not the difference between the m3 and the M3, it is the beat rate of the 6:4 partial as I hear it ie. the beat rate at C5 for the C3-F3 5th. Could you explain the m3-M3 test for me, and explain how I might make use of it?

As I mention above, none of these beat rates are set in stone by the time the temperament is finished. The emphasis is as you as on the beat rate progressions. The 8bps is, however, a firm basis to start from. We were initially taught to go for 8-9-10 bps rates for the M6s from F, F# and G, and 7-7.5-8-8.5-9 etc for the progression of M3s. But obviously it is ridiculous to think of these in this way, it just gives an idea of how they should progress.


Bill: In posting, I was trying to give my answer to the original poster's topic. I don't know anything about EDTs, and I've never been taught about CM3s. I now wish I had been taught about CM3s and the augmented chord basis for the temperament. The concept of using octaves to set the temperament is also completely new to me, but I can see massive value in it in my first attempts.
I have a very firm grasp of how my BW sequence is supposed to work, getting the beats to progress correctly is the aim. This is what I always aim for, and if I spend enough time doing it, I will achieve it. But using CM3s, I have achieved the same level of accuracy in the same amount of time already, and I haven't practiced it nearly enough for it to come naturally to me like the BW sequence does. In time I feel I will be able to produce a close ET quicker using the methods you describe. That's all I'm going to say on that particular matter, as I'm not interested in going off topic in order to join in the CM3s vs P4P5 turf war!
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#1355450 - 01/22/10 10:34 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Phil D]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Loc: Bradford County, PA
N a M:

My hat is off to you for hearing the beat of the 6:4 partial match directly. I do not, but have not tried all that hard. Instead I hear a “color” to the fifths that I attribute to a blend of the beat rates of the 3:2 and 6:4 partials.

The m3-M3 test does this indirectly. The difference between the beat rate of the m3 and the M3 is the beat rate of the 6:4 partial match. In case you didn’t know, the M3-M6 test for a fourth works the same way. If F-A beats 7 bps and F-D beats 8 bps then the 4:3 partial match of the fourth beats 1 bps. And if the F is raised so that the F-A beats 6 bps and F-D beats 7 bps, the A-D fourth still beats 1 bps. This is not explained in Dr. Whites book.

Still, 3 bps seems awfully fast. Perhaps you are hearing 3 half beats per second, like up-down-up. Theoretically the 6:4 beats twice the speed of the 3:2, but actually beats a little more than double because of iH. So 1-1/2 bps seems more like it and agrees with the actual difference in beat rates of the m3s and M3s. F-G# usually beat the same as B-D# on a real piano. And since M3 progress about ½ bps for each semi-tone, then F-G# would beat about 1-1/2 bps faster than G#-C.

And I understand what you are saying to Bill about the F-F octave just working out correctly even without starting there. I have wondered about how this could always be so when iH can require different octave sizes. I now believe that the beat rate of the fourths and fifths differs very little due to the scaling. There are definitely self-correcting effects of iH on beat rates. I hadn’t realized that they are to the extent that the correct width of the octave for the piano’s scale is one of them.

I know that others disagree. And in all fairness, if someone chose to tune the octave with a definite beat in it, it would be a challenge to use a 4th and 5th sequence. But to find an octave that truly fits the piano, you cannot be far off by having 4ths beat 1 bps and 5ths beat ½ bps.
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#1355962 - 01/23/10 12:53 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
How many notes are too many?


Two of them are too many.

In fact I can tune only one note at a time.

First I make an estimate on this note and proceed to tune other notes which confirm or correct this one note. Once this note is corrected I tune the next one.

Take for example F3 in the CM3 setting. First we estimate F3, then we tune F4 and C#4 to check the progression. If CM3s are not progressing evenly we retune F3, until we have a correct set of CM3s.

After that we tune a note which forms a 4th with one of the tuned notes using the same approach: first we make an estimate, then we tune auxiliary notes that will confirm or reject our estimate, etc…

The procedure is error free or more precisely: self correcting, one step at a time.

If you have to tune 10 notes before you can conclude anything, there are too many possible errors involved.


Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Can there be too many intervals to tweak if the result is a right progression of FBIs?


No, if the result is right there is nothing to tweak, of course, but if the result is an uneven progression then you’ll have a bad time to figure out the culprits.

That is precisely the opposite of what I am searching.

I am looking for a sequence free of guessing, where the piano tells you what it needs.


Edited by Gadzar (01/23/10 12:55 AM)
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#1356027 - 01/23/10 03:19 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Phil D]
Olek Offline
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Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Not a Mongoose
Thanks for the encouragement guys, I'm glad not to have been jumped on for putting my oar in! wink


The standard beat rates are used at the beginning of the temperament to give something to work from. When the sequence is complete and it is time to check through the progression of all the intervals, then I ignore the standard beat rates and concentrate on getting the smooth progressions. When all the intervals progress smoothly, they can be used to give a size for the F3-F4 octaves. The result, if done very well, sounds extremely good and very accurate.


Hello, thanks for the answer. In case you could record some music or some chords on a piano tuned with that method I sure wish to hear it (I have something in mind, just want to see if I am right). SO if you could, would me much appreciated (your tuning or the one of the instructor but please say so (or not !)

Funny you dont relate beat rate ratios with tests. I also wonder if it is told actually in Europe it was not when I learned. Learning to listen to a whole tone is also better than hearing too much at beat's level, I suppose.

Have anice week end !


Edited by Kamin (01/23/10 04:33 AM)
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#1356174 - 01/23/10 10:12 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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"I am looking for a sequence free of guessing, where the piano tells you what it needs."

Rafael, the "Up a third, up a third, down a 5th" sequence on my website is best for that. After the initial CM3s (where, as you know, there is only one estimate which is self correcting), each of the rest of the notes is tuned as a 4th or 5th (more 4ths than 5ths, the 4th is more reliable than the 5th) and is checked by RBI's. The name of the sequence only tells you the next note to be tuned. You do not tune M3s.

As the sequence progresses, you get increasing availability of checks. The weakest spot in it is G3, tuned from D4 as a 5th. At that point, there is only the minor third, G3-A#3 to check but it can be compared to the F#3-A3 minor third which is right next to it for similarity. The next note, B3 is tuned from F#3 as a 4th. If the G3-B3 M3 is not quite correct, you only have the B3 itself and the G3 previously tuned to adjust in order to find a smooth chromatic progression of F3-A3, F#3-A#3 and G3-B3.
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#1356364 - 01/23/10 02:23 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
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Loc: Mexico City
Thank you Bill,

I know the sequence "up a third, up a third, down a fifth" in your site. I've studied it some time ago in great detail. I even set you a PM with some questions and doubts I experienced when trying it. But this is a sequence based on CM3 to set the bearings.

What I want in this thread is to discuss if there is a sequence a la Braid-White, not based on CM3s but on a circle of 5ths while being self-correcting.

The great problem I've found on this type of procedures to tune ET is that after tuning four fifths when you finally have a third, there is nothing avialable to know if this third is correctly tempered. Then after other five fifths/fourths tuned you have the complete picture but if something is going wrong there are several possible causes and it's difficult to know what is wrong. So you are forced to a very painful trial and error guessing game to get a correct temperament.

They say that 1 bps wide fourths, 0.5 bps narrow fifths, and 8 bps wide major sixth F3-D4 do the trick, and are universally correct for any piano with any iH. But what I've experienced in my dayly work denies this.

First of all, it is extremely difficult to temper an accurate 0.5 bps narrow fifth, there are two pairs of strong coincident partials sounding simultaneously. Even the tuners that tune this way can not explain how they do it.



And for the 1 bps fourths and 8 bps M6th, I've found that small pianos, spinets, need slower thirds, not of 7 bps in F3-A3 but 6 bps which gives 7 (not 8) bps for the Major sixth F3-D4, with a slow wide fourth but I can not say if it is 1 bps, or 0.8, or 1.1 etc.

And here is the problem: Can we tell the piano how we want to tune it? Would it accept those imposed beat rates?

I personally have found that it doesn't work. Each piano needs different beat rates, so we need a sequence that takes this into consideration and gives us the possibility of finding the correct beat rates in an orderly self correcting procedure.


Edited by Gadzar (01/23/10 02:28 PM)
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#1356368 - 01/23/10 02:28 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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Quote:
And here is the problem: Can we tell the piano how we want to tune it? Would it accept those imposed beat rates?

What choice does it have?
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#1356373 - 01/23/10 02:33 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
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Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: BDB
Quote:
And here is the problem: Can we tell the piano how we want to tune it? Would it accept those imposed beat rates?

What choice does it have?


It can sound bad, for example. Or it can get tuned in a Reverse Well Temperament.

If I tune a small spinet imposing it a F3-A3 M3 beating at 7 bps, I will have too wide octaves, very harsh 10ths, and the overall piano will be too much stretched.
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#1356383 - 01/23/10 02:38 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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That must be because you are not a good piano tuner. Other people can do it.
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#1356399 - 01/23/10 02:49 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
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Loc: Mexico City
And the if I want to avoid this overstretching then I will tune more narrower fifths.

You see, the first fifths I tuned were too wide, giving a too wide F3-A3 M3. Then I must narrow the remaining fifths in order to close the circle and have a correct octave. The result is: Reverse Well Temperament.

In a well temperament the first fifths we tune are narrower, in order to form quiet M3s, as we progress in the circle of fifths they become less narow and some of them are even tuned pure, giving more lively beating thirds in the remote keys.

By imposing a beat rate of 8 bps to the M6 F3-D4 in a small piano with a lot of iH, we are enlargening fifths, those of the simpler keys. And to close the circle we must tune narrower fifths for the remote keys. This is by definition "Reverse Well Temperament".
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#1356404 - 01/23/10 02:56 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: BDB
That must be because you are not a good piano tuner. Other people can do it.


If you want to be offensive, you must accept unpolite answers.

This time I'll let it go, but please don't insist.

If someone dares to qualify me as a bad tuner, he must at least be a good tuner.

Why don´t you put some audio on the internet of a piano you have tuned to show me the good tuner you are?

For my part I offer to show you my piano as I usually tune it in EBVT III or if you want so I can retune it in ET and let you judge if I am a bad tuner.


Edited by Gadzar (01/23/10 03:08 PM)
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#1356461 - 01/23/10 04:42 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
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Loc: France
Rafael, using the usual 5th test it is not really difficult to listen for a beat differnence each 2 seconds.
consider F3 C4
Count how many beats/second you have in the low M6Th

lets say 4 bps
then listen to 2 seconds you will have 8 beats
then you may heave 6 bps in 2 seconds on the 10ths if I am not wrong.

Not more difficult than, that, while I agree it is easier to deal with RBI's. and if you have for instance 0.35 BPS on a 5th the only good way is to use a metronome, compute an accepteable beat rate with a multiplier (for instance counting 1.40 bps (metronome 140) and count 4ticks.

It is indeed easier to have a guess based on the tone of the fifths and refining it with the progression of RBI's.

But I guess I understand what you are looking for.

To me, using the 6:4 relation is probably less precise, I doubt iH is as progressive as that, anyway the iH ranges I have seen recorded on different edt show often strange things (I recall RCT finding negative inharmonicity in the treble of old Pleyels, for instance)
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#1356517 - 01/23/10 06:22 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Rafael, you are, of course, absolutely correct in all of your observations, they are also what I've known for many years and have told my students for many years. BDB has his good days and his bad days. He knows better than what he said in his last few posts.

I just returned from my tutoring session with a student who had been studying the material from a certain correspondence course, the one many people choose as a "cheaper" alternative. I won't mention the name because people have the right to make their own decisions. I got an e-mail from them once and I don't want any more. It asked if I had seen their "new" temperament instructions and I had not, so I did hold out the possibility there would be new information but there was not.

The instructions are identical to those found in the Braide-White book but with all of the details, as far as they go, that Braide-White, to his credit wrote. I'll say this categorically: no one on earth could ever expect to tune ET by following the instructions the way they are written in that manual. No one could ever hope to pass the PTG tuning exam by following those instructions to the letter, not temperament, not midrange nor the outside octaves.

That would not be necessarily true for someone who really read, studied and practiced the more complete material offered in the BW book. However, consider that most who may have studied it never did understand all of it and never learned much if anything beyond the truncated version of what BW teaches found in the correspondence course manual.

No one who studied either the BW book or that manual or any other book or material which presents ET tuning in essentially the same way know anything whatsoever about any other kind of temperament unless they found it in another source. If they know anything at all, it is that there used to be other ways to tune but they have long ago become obsolete and therefore, there is no use for them nor any need to understand what they are.

So, there has been an entire century or more of tuners who believed that whatever they did was ET. Whatever anybody else did was ET. Any piano they ever heard anywhere could only have been tuned in ET. Any other kind of temperament would not work, you can't modulate, so very nearly every piano technician, pianist and music educator must have had that indelibly carved in their minds and most of them still do today.

Now, for you mathematical types, just how could it be true that all tuning is ET everywhere and has been for 100 years or more when the method that most tuners have used was not very well understood by most who tried to learn it, most ignored or never learned any of the details, and virtually all of them knew nothing about any other kind of temperament? I believe that the 90% estimate I have for those who tune by ear and firmly believe they are tuning ET but instead are tuning reverse well is conservative. It is at least that much but probably more.

Reverse well is the most likely result of nearly anyone who would follow the sequence written in that correspondence course manual and also the most likely result of anyone who read the BW book but did not learn the very complex checks and corrections which are absolutely essential for the method to work.

The answer to why so few people say they have never heard of reverse well or why they never heard any piano tuned that way is because reverse well has been accepted as ET for the last 100 years, the very same as WT had been accepted as ET in the 19th Century. It is everywhere but it has always been believed to be ET. All key tonalities are "useful". You can modulate "freely" in reverse well. You can play any and all music that we all know in reverse well and we have all heard pianos in reverse well.

I could not document what my student was actually able to do with what he knew from having followed the instructions in the manual to the best of his ability because he could not even complete a temperament octave without breaking down in complete frustration.

"We will find another way", I told him and I began to teach him how to tune a set of CM3s. Even though he had learned absolutely nothing about how M3s should sound from his manual, he could still clearly and easily hear and understand what I taught him today. I don't mind a slow learner who can only understand a little at a time. They are the best learners. In fact, the faster they may seem to pick up what is being taught, the more easily they may forget it. If it takes a month before he can set the CM3s accurately on his own with no prompting, that will be plenty fast enough because after that, the rest is far easier.

It may seem that most of what I have written above is off topic for this thread but to me it really is not. I told him about the "let the piano tell you concept". He clearly heard and understood how the CM3s do tell the tuner when the arrangement is correct. He clearly had been completely frustrated by following the instructions he had to the letter, as far as he had understood them. The piano did not "tell" him when the temperament was right but it surely did tell him that it was wrong.

He began by earnestly and painstakingly "counting" beats according to the instructions. He tried to tell the piano what to do but the piano replied, "Sorry, you can tune any interval you want to any specific rate you want but that does not mean it is correct. Only I know what is right for me and I will only tell you what you have done is right when you let me tell you and stop trying to force your opinion of what is right on me. Otherwise, you are fighting a losing battle."
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#1356735 - 01/23/10 11:30 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
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Perhaps a topic on piano personification tuning techniques would be appropriate at this point.
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#1356815 - 01/24/10 01:42 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
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Loc: France
What is eventually to be avoided is to talk with the piano in front of the customers !

I may confess I sometime fell the soul of the precedent owner thru the vibrations of the instrument , also !

(Taking medecines, but it wont go !)
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#1356867 - 01/24/10 06:03 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

I want to thank you for starting this Topic. It is wonderful that it has not turned as ugly as some have on the subject.

I would say that regardless of the sequence, if the result is that all 3rds and 6ths are progressive (let me continue to use this as a definition of ET) it is because the tuner listened to what the piano told them.

I do not believe that there is a 4ths and 5ths sequence that is available to you that will produce an ET. You must be able hear the tempering of the 4ths and 5ths directly (or at least be able to discern very slow beat rates) and also “juggle” the many intervals that nine notes produce.

Likewise, I do not believe (with one exception) that there is available to me a CM3 sequence that will produce ET. I must either be able to hear a slight variation in differences of the beat rate ratios of the M3s to set a perfect set of initial CM3s or mentally accept a smoothing routine that has multiple error sources. The one exception is a variation on ET via Marpurg that makes use of the ready made chromatic m3s and M6s for checking the accuracy of the CM3s and just SBIs. It is unfortunate if Bill sees this as an insult to his sequence. I have always meant it as a compliment. I have not, but really should, investigate just what the results of this variation would be across a jump in iH. It may be a compromise that I find acceptable.

But the most important thing that this Topic has done for me is cause me to look at the question of tuning with fixed beat rates again: Is it really advocated by BW, is the problem in the difference between actual and theoretical, is the problem in the ability of the tuner to discern small differences between actual and remembered beat rates, and are there any intervals having theoretical beat rates (perhaps including iH theory) that are correct enough and where the differences between actual and remembered beat rates are discernable enough to produce a reliable RBI that is appropriate to the piano’s scaling?

I am now convinced there are intervals with such theoretical beat rates. Tuning an initial M6 or m3 by using 4ths that beat 1 bps and 5ths that beat ½ bps in the temperament octave will produce a reliable RBI. But that does not mean that this technique is available for everyone.
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#1357090 - 01/24/10 01:32 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
But that does not mean that this technique is available for everyone.


You seem to say the same thing DBD did, except that you are more polite.

Of course there are bad tuners which are not able to do what good tuners can. But this is not the point here.


So now you state that if we can tune precisely tempered 4ths and 5ths at 1 and 0.5 bps then we get correct RBIs.


This approach is absolutely opposed to the "let the piano tell you" concept.

Here the tuner tells the piano that those beat rates of 1 bps and 0.5 bps are universally appropriate, for all pianos of any size and shape.

If you tune this way, then after 4 intervals you have a M3 of the correct size for any piano. And by tuning a fourth plus a fifth from a given note you will get a correct octave. You have no more decisions to make. There is only one correct size of octave! There is only one correct size for a M3. You have defeated iH, which poses the conflict of non aligned nearly coincident partials. There is no more balancing different types of octaves to the better sound. The octave must be tuned as the result of a 1 bps fourth plus a 0.5 bps fifth and all the rest will fall into place as expected. It really seams magic!

But I doubt you can tune real pianos this way! These magic numbers should make their points: Will RBI’s obtained by tuning this way be evenly progressive? Does 3 CM3 add up to the “unique correct octave“?

Can a good tuner really tune 4ths and 5ths directly with enough accuracy to complete the circle? The answer is: NO. All good tuners use RBI’s to correct the tempering of SBIs. Why? Because they can not tune accurate SBIs directly by themselves.
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#1357334 - 01/24/10 08:18 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
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Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Rafael, do you know of a tuner that can complete a temperament with strictly RBI's and then the SBI's fall into place? I doubt it. Everything is checked in the end so what is your point by looking for exclusivity with one or the other?
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#1357547 - 01/25/10 08:03 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

I am using terms like “reliable” and “appropriate”. You are using terms like “precise” and “correct”. I am talking about juggling intervals to produce progressive RBI beat rates, you are talking about carved-in-stone beat rates producing progressive RBIs. You are building a straw man to knock down, and I refuse to help you.

And I do hold fast to my belief that tuning F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps will produce an appropriate octave on any piano. I do not believe that a compromise between 4:2 and 6:3 is an appropriate octave for all pianos.

Your reference to “the tuner telling the piano” is better defined by choosing the octave type before listening to the piano than by using the beat rate of the 4ths and 5ths. These beat rates are affected by iH in a way that produces wider octaves on lower iH pianos and less wide ones on high iH pianos. Choosing a compromise of 4:2 and 6:3 octaves does the opposite! Choosing the octave width according to the piano’s iH is “the piano telling the tuner” and the beat rate of 4ths and 5ths is a tool to do so.

It is not magic unless you do not understand or believe it. It can be demonstrated with math (which is a foolish thing to mock if it is not understood). I am sure that this effect of iH is utilized by Mr. Stopper’s program.

And remember that I admit that some techniques are not available to me, either. It is not a snub on you or anyone else. It is an acknowledgement of differences in ability. As far as what a “good” tuner is, only the customer’s opinion matters.
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#1357629 - 01/25/10 10:56 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I respectfully disagree that choosing an octave size when initiating a temperament is somehow inappropriate. Whatever that choice may be, it will be a different size for each piano depending on what the inharmonicity of the piano is. A 2:1 octave, for example, can never be exactly 1200 cents wide on any piano. It will always be wider. The amount by which it is wider than 1200 cents will vary from piano to piano.

If you create an initial octave by tempering a contiguous 4th and 5th, you may well find an octave that seems usable, that doesn't have an obvious beat but you could perform the same operation several times and each time have a different result, all of which could sound acceptable. The piano's actual inharmonicity has not been discovered, only different combinations of a differently sized 4th & 5th sum that results in an acceptable sounding octave have.

Whatever that result is, all the rest of the 4ths & 5ths have to be estimated after that and the only way to check and control those estimates is with RBI checks. If the tuner does not know these checks or has not learned to perceive and control the fine distinctions between RBI checks, the RBIs will inevitably be uneven and therefore the temperament will not be equal.

The most common error has always been to try to temper the 4ths & 5ths among the white keys a little less than they should be for ET. That tendency was identified long ago by John Travis in his book, Let's Tune Up as the "tendency to err towards the just 5th". No tuner likes the sound of a narrowly tempered 5th, so the process of tuning a 4ths & 5ths temperament along the cycle of 5ths which begins among the white keys, creates overly wide M3s among those keys.

About half way through the sequence, the tuner encounters a dilemma and is forced to overly temper the 4ths & 5ths among the black keys which in turn, creates M3s among those black keys which are not tempered enough and which beat too slowly. That is the exact opposite description of how a WT is tuned. So, the most commonly made error is to tune a backwards version of a WT without realizing it because most tuners do not know anything about what a WT really is or how it is tuned.

The tuner tried his/her best, "counting" beats the entire way. It didn't work out as planned but there seemed to be no solution, only to blame the problem on the piano. The result, time and again, on virtually every piano is reverse well.

Now, of course, I know there are tuners who are more sophisticated than that. They do have an exceptional sense of tuning initial 4ths & 5ths which will work out and when they do arrive at RBI checks, they know what to do with them and how to digress through previously tuned 4ths & 5ths to even them out and the result is an acceptable sounding ET. It has been my observation however, that these people are the exception rather than the rule.

Nobody ever suggested tuning any temperament using strictly RBIs, not Gadzar, not me and nobody who teaches tuning through PTG ever did. What I and all of the other PTG people who teach tuning and who set up exam master tunings do is utilize all intervals, SBI and RBI alike. No interval can be favored over another and have ET be the result.

Nobody is telling any experienced tuner who is used to using a 4ths & 5ths method and can do it successfully to adopt a method that may seem strange and cumbersome. What I and other PTG people do, along with the top schools such as North Bennett, Chicago, Potter, etc., do is teach another kind of strategy that has demonstrated itself to be more successful, much more often than the classic 4ths & 5ths method.

If a tuner learns to tune the CM3s accurately, it does not matter what the size of the initial octave is. It can range from slightly narrow to a full beat per second wide. Whatever choice is made will, of course, affect the entire rest of the tuning. The piano cannot "tell" the tuner which choice is more correct than the other and any choice can be considered valid depending on the circumstances.

However, the piano can indeed "tell" the tuner when the arrangement of the CM3s is correct to within an extremely small margin of error and that is what the phrase, "Let the piano tell you" means. We are not talking about mystical "voices" speaking to us. We are talking about a balance of intervals where the slightest change of any of the notes in that arrangement will either correct or upset the arrangement. Even the most inexperienced tuner can easily perceive when the balance of the CM3s is correct or not. They may have to practice for a while to be able to do it consistently well but the required perception of correct vs incorrect is something that any person with normal hearing can learn with a few minutes of instruction. They instantly develop a keen ear for RBIs when they do.

Once that set of CM3s is established, a tuner could merely tune 4ths & 5ths from each of those pitches and arrive at a fairly acceptable temperament without really knowing how to check and correct the rest of the RBIs. As long as a tuner knows that 4ths are widened and 5ths are narrowed and each of these is a reasonable attempt, the resultant temperament would probably be within an acceptable margin and most probably not exhibit any clearly reverse well characteristics.
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#1357635 - 01/25/10 11:19 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Emmery]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Emmery,

You are absolutely right. It is not me who searches such an exclusivity. It's UnrightTooner who says he can obtain right RBIs on any piano just by tuning 1 bps wide fourths and 0.5 bps fifths.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 11:38 AM)
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#1357660 - 01/25/10 11:49 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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No, he said one particular fourth and one particular fifth. Of course, "1 bps" and "0.5 bps" are not necessarily exact terms.

This whole discussion is pretty silly. Technique does not matter as long as the results are good. Equal temperament is only important in piano tuning inasmuch as it provides a good compromise with the myriad other temperaments that other instruments use. The idea of trying to prove that someone's tunings are bad because their technique is wrong is ridiculous. All it does is discourage someone who is just starting out.

As I said before, the most important thing is the last step: going back and checking your work, making corrections as necessary. That is something I do every note I tune, not just in the temperament octave.

I have been looking for recordings of tunings I have done. I do not tend to record much music. There are restrictions on recordings of live performances which I do not wish to ignore. But maybe I can find something. In the meantime, you can always buy a ticket!
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#1357665 - 01/25/10 11:54 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Bill:

I suppose it depends on how you define the “width” of an octave, by the number of cents wide or by the partial match.

Let me try to restate what I mean. A small piano is better off (in my opinion) being tuned to close to a 4:2 octave, so that the resulting 17ths will not be too wide. And a large piano is better off (in my opinion) being tuned to close to a 6:3 octave so the 12ths will not be too narrow. A compromise between 4:2 and 6:3 octaves is fine for a middle sized piano but not necessarily for a small or a large one. I was not really expecting it, but when I investigated I found that setting the 4ths and 5ths as mentioned will produce an appropriate octave (in my opinion) regardless of the size. It will produce close to a 6:3 octave in larger pianos and close to a 4:2 octave in smaller pianos.

Of course if it is decided to tune narrow partial-match octaves on a large piano or large partial-match octaves on a small piano then the beat speeds of the 4ths and 5ths will be different. I just consider such tuning to be inappropriate.

But in all fairness, a temperament can be set to an octave that may not be the very best size and as octaves are tuned out from there adjustments can be made for a better octave without necessarily retuning the temperament. This leeway is why mindless octaves can be tuned starting with a fairly wide range of initial octave.

Also I believe there are sequences that use only RBIs, although I have no idea whether PTG instructors use them. If I remember right Defenbaugh is one.
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#1357667 - 01/25/10 11:56 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
…are there any intervals having theoretical beat rates (perhaps including iH theory) that are correct enough and where the differences between actual and remembered beat rates are discernable enough to produce a reliable RBI that is appropriate to the piano’s scaling?

I am now convinced there are intervals with such theoretical beat rates. Tuning an initial M6 or m3 by using 4ths that beat 1 bps and 5ths that beat ½ bps in the temperament octave will produce a reliable RBI.


Maybe I don’t understand English very well, but from what you wrote above I conclude that you believe that 1 bps fourths and 0.5 bps fifths in the temperament octave will produce reliable RBIs, for any piano of any kind of iH, as you are including iH theory in the first paragraph above.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
And I do hold fast to my belief that tuning F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps will produce an appropriate octave on any piano.


Me too!

I repeat what I said previously in this thread: I agree with you, this procedure assures a good octave on any piano with any amount of iH. But…

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
I am now convinced there are intervals with such theoretical beat rates.


Not me!

I disagree that tuning 1 bps fourths and 0.5 bps fifths will create a good ET on any piano. I believe that those figures can not be used on all pianos and that we must adjust these figures to the specific configuration of iH on each individual piano, so a “let the piano tell you” sequence is needed.
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#1357682 - 01/25/10 12:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Phil D Offline
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Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I disagree that tuning 1 bps fourths and 0.5 bps fifths will create a good ET on any piano. I believe that those figures can not be used on all pianos and that we must adjust these figures to the specific configuration of iH on each individual piano, so a “let the piano tell you” sequence is needed.


If a 1bps fourth and 0.5bps fifth sequence is followed, and does not produce smoothly progressing RBIs, then the tempering of the fourths and fifths needs to be changed. I outlined the process by which I arrive at the correct tempering of fifths above. I very, very rarely find I need to adjust my fourths away from 1bps. A "let the piano tell you" sequence is there, it is just the correct application of the BW sequence. What you are looking for is a simpler one, but without tuning enough notes to arrive at sequences of chromatic or contiguous RBIs, there is nothing else to check.

In other words, what you are looking for exists, it is just the correct application of a Braide-White style sequence, using the progression of 3rds and 6ths to tell you of any systematic errors in the tempering of the 4ths and 5ths. I can't think of any other way that you could find the correct width for the 4ths and 5ths without tuning enough notes to obtain sequences of 3rds and 6ths.

The octaves-and-CM3s method requires a lot fewer notes to be tuned before you know that some intervals are correctly tempered. That just seems to be the way it is! smile
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#1357683 - 01/25/10 12:21 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

OK, now I am confused. You agree that F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps will produce an appropriate octave on any piano. But you disagree that these beat speeds will produce a good ET.

I did not say they would produce a good ET. I said they would produce a reliable initial RBI; one that the sequence can be continued with.
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#1357685 - 01/25/10 12:26 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Defebaugh sequence is:

A4<-Fork, unison
A3<-A4, down an octave
F3<-A3, down a M3
F3->D4, up a M6
A#3<-D4, down a M3
A3->C#4, up a M3
G#3<-C#4, down a P4 (this is the only one SBI tuned in the sequence)
G#3->C4, up a M3
F#3<-A#3, down a M3
F#3->D#4, up a M6
B3<-D#4, down a M3
G3<-B3, down a M3
G3->E4, up a M6
G#3->F4, up a M6

So he tunes exclusively RBI's with only one exception: G#3-C#4 fourth.

Though as he alternatively tunes M3s and M6s, he is implicitly tuning the involved fourths: M6=M3+P4

As long as I now there is no “only RBIs” sequence.
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#1357699 - 01/25/10 12:38 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Unright,

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
I said they would produce a reliable initial RBI.


That's exactly what I disagree with.

While you can tune a good sounding octave for any piano with any iH by tuning F3-C4 0.5 bps narrow fifth and C4-F4 1 bps wide fourth, you can not continue that way tuning 1 bps wide fourths and 0.5 bps narrow fifths to obtain a good initial M3 or M6.

All I agree with is the size of the F3-F4 octave, not the size of the P4s and P5s, neither resulting M3s and M6s.

You have to establish the correct size of those intervals by listening to the individual piano's iH in a much complex and complete way (a set of CM3s for example or any other method you can imagine, which I am looking for here).


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 12:44 PM)
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#1357713 - 01/25/10 12:47 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Bill:

I suppose it depends on how you define the “width” of an octave, by the number of cents wide or by the partial match.

Let me try to restate what I mean. A small piano is better off (in my opinion) being tuned to close to a 4:2 octave, so that the resulting 17ths will not be too wide. And a large piano is better off (in my opinion) being tuned to close to a 6:3 octave so the 12ths will not be too narrow..




Hello, in fatc aint as straight. A large piano with low iH will need a very tight (pure) tuning as to avoid extraneous movement of the RBI in the medium.

A high ih instrument does not tolerate much stretch, so we may avoid 6:3 octaves. Besides, the differnece between 6:3 and 2:4 is low, simply it is not practical to use 6:3 it always will tend to stretch too much.

May be on a high iH large piano it is possible, this is a kind of instrument that provide more romm for stretch variants (but it will not tone very nicely with to plain octaves)

There are relatively small pianos with lower iH than usual (in the medium range).

I did not anayze how the SBI are acting , really, on those 2 situations. If you tune by a "nicely sounding SBI", I suppose that you correct that without noticing.

Then when the FBI comes in the pictures we are all under arrest !
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#1357732 - 01/25/10 01:00 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
UnrightTooner,

To me it is easier to tune A3-A4, F3-F4 as a 6:3/4:2 compromise. And here I agree once again with you, in low iH pianos I like to favor 6:3 type, while in high iH pianos I use to favor 4:2 type, I even tune a 4:2/2:1 compromise in small spinets.

But on any kind of piano I could happily tune A3-A4 and F3-F4 octaves the way you suggest! That is:

1. Tune A4 to the fork
2. Temporarily tune E4 to A4 as a 1 bps wide fourth
3. Tune A3 to E4 as a 0.5 bps narrow fifth.
4. Temporarily tune F3 from A3 as a 6-7 bps wide M3.
5. Temporarily tune C4 as a 0.5 bps narrow fifth.
6. Tune F4 as a 1 bps wide fourth.

And now we continue to tune the CM3s as usual. The tuning of C4 and E4 is only temporary to establish the width of F3-F4 and A3-A4 octaves in a proper way, and it will work on any type of piano. C4 and E4 should be retuned later in the sequence at the right spots.

I guess it will give consistent results, but I believe this approach is a little cumbersome as you have to tune and retune two more notes, which will be only temporarily tuned anyway. I prefer to verify octave's width with 6:3 and 4:2 tests.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 01:58 PM)
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#1357760 - 01/25/10 01:32 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
I believe a little precision is needed when speaking on stretch's amounts.

We use to say that a 6:3 octave is more stretched than a 4:2 type octave. And that is true only if we are talking of octaves of the same piano.

Now if we talk about two different pianos, which is more stretched? The answer is no so obvious, it will depend on amounts of iH present in each of the strings involved.

It is possible to have more stretch in a 4:2 octave on a little piano with high iH than in a 6:3 octave on a large grand with low iH.

To remediate this confusion it would be usefull to speak of stretch in terms of "cents wide from pure" intervalls.

In that way a 2 cents wide octave will ever be more stretched than a 1 cent wide octave, no matter the difference between pianos.

In that sense what Kamin says comes to light: A large low inharmonic grand piano accepts very little stretch, in cents, compared to a piano with more iH, as the different types of octaves would be closer to each other. And even if the octave is closer to 6:3 type than to 4:2, it will be less stretched than a 4:2 type octave on a high iH piano.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 01:45 PM)
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#1357781 - 01/25/10 01:54 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Not a Mongoose
In other words, what you are looking for exists, it is just the correct application of a Braide-White style sequence, using the progression of 3rds and 6ths to tell you of any systematic errors in the tempering of the 4ths and 5ths.


I guess you are right. That sequence does it, it is only that it does not satisfy me. I find it cumbersome, inaccurate and error cumulative... I am looking for a simpler one.

And, for what I can see at another thread, I am not alone:

Originally Posted By: Not a Mongoose
My fine tuning has certainly been suffering in the time since I finished my tuning course, with not getting the chance to do any! I came across the concept of contiguous M3s, and have been astounded by the results. The tuning sequence I was taught was based on the Braide-White, and I never really got it to work satisfactorily. Always got confused by the checks and what they were telling me.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 03:03 PM)
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#1357810 - 01/25/10 02:54 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
leomtodd Offline
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Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 82
Loc: Limerick Maine
Well I am confused. I learned using 4ths and 5ths checking 6ths and 3rds major is slightly slower than minor. RBI regular beating intervals?

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#1357814 - 01/25/10 03:00 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: leomtodd]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
RBI=FBI= rapid beating interval = fast beating interval

SBI = slow beating interval
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#1357890 - 01/25/10 04:53 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
I have only a little objection.

Instead of tuning a:

1/2 bps 5th + 1 bps 4th = octave, for example F3-C4, C4-F4

I would tune the 4th in the first place:

1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4

That is because of the partials involved in these intervals
4:3 for the fourth and 3:2 for the fifth. So when making the fourth to beat faster than the fifth we are tuning a wider than pure 4:2 octave.

4:3 faster than 3:2 = wide 4:2

While if we first tune the fifth F-C and then the fourth C-F the partials involved don't tell us anything about what kind of octave we are getting.

3:2 slower than 4:3 = who knows?



Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 04:58 PM)
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#1357958 - 01/25/10 06:14 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I believe a little precision is needed when speaking on stretch's amounts.

We use to say that a 6:3 octave is more stretched than a 4:2 type octave. And that is true only if we are talking of octaves of the same piano.

Now if we talk about two different pianos, which is more stretched? The answer is no so obvious, it will depend on amounts of iH present in each of the strings involved.

It is possible to have more stretch in a 4:2 octave on a little piano with high iH than in a 6:3 octave on a large grand with low iH.

To remediate this confusion it would be usefull to speak of stretch in terms of "cents wide from pure" intervalls.

In that way a 2 cents wide octave will ever be more stretched than a 1 cent wide octave, no matter the difference between pianos.

In that sense what Kamin says comes to light: A large low inharmonic grand piano accepts very little stretch, in cents, compared to a piano with more iH, as the different types of octaves would be closer to each other. And even if the octave is closer to 6:3 type than to 4:2, it will be less stretched than a 4:2 type octave on a high iH piano.


Yes I guess you are right. I mostly talk of the way we tune, not of cts. 6:3 octaves on a Fazioli, concert grand , not at all (for instance)
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#1358028 - 01/25/10 08:01 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
I've never seen a Fazioli concert grand (except in photos). Here concert grands are mostly Ds. And they all have beautifull basses, a pleasure to tune them! All theoretical tuning stuff works to perfection in them.


Edited by Gadzar (01/25/10 08:04 PM)
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#1358200 - 01/26/10 12:01 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I have long been offering alternative strategies to the classic Braide-White method for the reasons I have stated. I have also said that what I have to offer is not really for people who can use that system successfully. It is for aural tuning novices and those who have not been successful with the BW method. Having clearly stated that, the comments to my e-mail keep pouring in and none yet have told me that they prefer the BW method, I have only seen that on here by a few people.

Here a comments from today and yesterday's mail:

Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 4:21 AM
From: Stanley ***** <*****.net.py>
To: billbrpt@charter.net

Subject: Appreciation for recent Journal Article
Size: 4 KB
Dear Bill Bremmer,
I have enjoyed your series of articles on ET via Marprug Sequence.

While I attended the convention last summer in Grand Rapids, I took in 3 classes on tuning by ear. While I was there I bought the Reference Material for the 3 examinations to become a RPT. I'm thoroughly enjoying the material.

But with reference to your article in the December issue of the Journal I must say you presented specific material that is really being useful. Not only what note you tune after the other, but you included the action to take to correct things. The steps 13 to 21 in your article said to flatten this or to sharpen that. Excellent! We've had many articles on tuning but this one had something I needed.

To me that represents excellent teaching techniques.
Congratulations!
Stanley ***** International Associate Member, Paraguay

********************************************************

Date: Monday, January 25, 2010 4:36 PM
From: Jim ***** <*****@yahoo.com>
To: billbrpt@charter.net

Subject: marpurg
Size: 4 KB
Hey Bill,

Just a note to let you know that I've used the Marpurg sequence for about a month now and I find it very helpful. I have always tuned aurally. It adds some more steps but cuts down on the guess work and corrections.. I can't remember the last time I modified my temperament sequence, maybe 15 or 20 years! Thanks, Jim ***** RPT
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#1358272 - 01/26/10 01:41 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I have only a little objection.

Instead of tuning a:

1/2 bps 5th + 1 bps 4th = octave, for example F3-C4, C4-F4

I would tune the 4th in the first place:

1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4

That is because of the partials involved in these intervals
4:3 for the fourth and 3:2 for the fifth. So when making the fourth to beat faster than the fifth we are tuning a wider than pure 4:2 octave.

4:3 faster than 3:2 = wide 4:2

While if we first tune the fifth F-C and then the fourth C-F the partials involved don't tell us anything about what kind of octave we are getting.

3:2 slower than 4:3 = who knows?



"1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4"

These ratios occur on pure duodecimes (twelfths).

Bernhard Stopper
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#1358315 - 01/26/10 03:56 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I've never seen a Fazioli concert grand (except in photos). Here concert grands are mostly Ds. And they all have beautifull basses, a pleasure to tune them! All theoretical tuning stuff works to perfection in them.


Yes as they have moderate iH you can use different stretches it chnge the type of tone. It is not as possible with a low iH piano that scream easely.
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#1358317 - 01/26/10 03:59 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I have only a little objection.

Instead of tuning a:

1/2 bps 5th + 1 bps 4th = octave, for example F3-C4, C4-F4

I would tune the 4th in the first place:

1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4

That is because of the partials involved in these intervals
4:3 for the fourth and 3:2 for the fifth. So when making the fourth to beat faster than the fifth we are tuning a wider than pure 4:2 octave.

4:3 faster than 3:2 = wide 4:2

While if we first tune the fifth F-C and then the fourth C-F the partials involved don't tell us anything about what kind of octave we are getting.

3:2 slower than 4:3 = who knows?



"1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4"

These ratios occur on pure duodecimes (twelfths).

Bernhard Stopper




Hi Bernhard !

The next step is providing a workeable tuning sequence !. It may be easier to rely on 3:1 than on 4:2.

DO you think it is possible to switch from a 3:1 based sequence to an octave srtretch based one at some moment in the piano (treble) ?




Edited by Kamin (01/26/10 04:01 AM)
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#1358336 - 01/26/10 04:59 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Olek]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
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Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I have only a little objection.

Instead of tuning a:

1/2 bps 5th + 1 bps 4th = octave, for example F3-C4, C4-F4

I would tune the 4th in the first place:

1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4

That is because of the partials involved in these intervals
4:3 for the fourth and 3:2 for the fifth. So when making the fourth to beat faster than the fifth we are tuning a wider than pure 4:2 octave.

4:3 faster than 3:2 = wide 4:2

While if we first tune the fifth F-C and then the fourth C-F the partials involved don't tell us anything about what kind of octave we are getting.

3:2 slower than 4:3 = who knows?



"1 bps 4th + 1/2 bps 5th = octave, for example F3-A#3, A#3-F4"

These ratios occur on pure duodecimes (twelfths).

Bernhard Stopper




Hi Bernhard !

The next step is providing a workeable tuning sequence !. It may be easier to rely on 3:1 than on 4:2.

DO you think it is possible to switch from a 3:1 based sequence to an octave srtretch based one at some moment in the piano (treble) ?




ANY sequence starting from whatever octave width and fitting the other intervals into that width will do.

Bernhard Stopper
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#1358341 - 01/26/10 05:14 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
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Yes , but your tuning is including stretch progression for at last 6 notes, my question is that it most probably does not allow to use another type of stretch aftertaht (octave based, or does it ?)
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#1358349 - 01/26/10 05:40 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Olek]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Posts: 219
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Originally Posted By: Kamin
Yes , but your tuning is including stretch progression for at last 6 notes, my question is that it most probably does not allow to use another type of stretch aftertaht (octave based, or does it ?)


What kind of octave stretch are you talking of? Whole tone aural octave types, partial match octave types, frequency ratio octave types?

Many ways lead to Rome....
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#1358353 - 01/26/10 05:57 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
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Italian octaves ! Dont know wich type but a way to keep coherence with the mediums while finding enough stretch in the high treble when feeling the desire for.

We may well stick to some kind of methodology dont we ?
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#1358389 - 01/26/10 07:47 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

Congratulations again on starting a great Topic. Italian octaves, I love it! (My Grandmother would have said EYE-talian octaves…)

Let me make some general comments about 4ths and 5ths. There have been so many posts since I last posted, it is hard to sort out the questions and comments.

First let me talk about the progression of 4ths and 5ths. If we take a piano with iH and tune straight 4:2 octaves the 4ths and 5ths will increase in beat speed through most of the scale, but will less than double in beat speed per octave. Of course each contiguous 4th and 5th will beat at the same speed when the 4th is on the bottom; this is a test, or better yet a definition, of a 4:2 octave. And if the octaves are wider than 4:2 the 5th will be slower and if the octave is narrower the 4ths will beat slower. Also, if the octave partial-type narrows going up the scale (which must happen at some point or the 2:1 match will beat wildly even with straight 4:2 octaves) the 4th will progress slower and the 5ths will progress faster.

OK, your objection is that although starting with F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps is appropriate, tuning any other 4ths and 5ths with these same beat rates is not and will not produce a reliable RBI to continue the sequence. Great, we are getting down to brass tacks. Even though SBIs do not double in beat rate every octave, let’s use harmonic tones as a worse case scenario.

So what would be the error of using the same beat rates? Take a 4th that beats 1 bps and is 2 cents wide. The 4th an octave higher would beat 2 bps. And each 4th in between would beat by the 12th root of 2 faster than the one below it. And if the lower 4th was tuned to beat the same as the upper at 2 bps, the error would be 2 cents. So the error of tuning a 4th at the same speed as the one chromatically below it would be 1/8 of a cent. That is not much at all. Until we are looking at 4ths (or 5ths) that are contiguous, it may not be possible to manipulate the pin well enough, or to discern the difference in beat rates, in order to make the beats progressive. This is the reason I use the term “generally progressive” when referring to 4ths and 5ths.

And this is a worse case scenario. In reality, the beat rate of 4th and 5th do not double each octave. And if the octaves narrow sufficiently the 4ths may seem to all beat at the same speed. I believe this is how the Baldrassin-Sanderson sequence works with their use of a series of 4ths beating at the same rate. Considering the effects of iH and narrowing octaves, the 4ths may very well seem to all beat at the same speed.

So back to the “reliable” RBI. I am not saying perfect. And in cases where two SBIs are contiguous in the temperament, I believe that they should not beat the same. But even then, the errors are small and especially in the use of G-A# as a RBI rate ceiling I hold fast to it being “reliable” for continuing the sequence, not as a beat rate written in stone.

Also, there is a problem with using F-A# beating 1 bps and A#-F beating ½ bps to set an initial octave. This will fix the initial octave as ½ bps wide of a 4:2 octave. You might as well say 1 cent wide of 4:2. It does not allow the same variation due to iH that tuning F-C at ½ bps and C-F at 1 bps will.
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#1358533 - 01/26/10 11:36 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Defebaugh sequence is:

A4<-Fork, unison
A3<-A4, down an octave
F3<-A3, down a M3
F3->D4, up a M6
A#3<-D4, down a M3
A3->C#4, up a M3
G#3<-C#4, down a P4 (this is the only one SBI tuned in the sequence)
G#3->C4, up a M3
F#3<-A#3, down a M3
F#3->D#4, up a M6
B3<-D#4, down a M3
G3<-B3, down a M3
G3->E4, up a M6
G#3->F4, up a M6

So he tunes exclusively RBI's with only one exception: G#3-C#4 fourth.

Though as he alternatively tunes M3s and M6s, he is implicitly tuning the involved fourths: M6=M3+P4

As long as I now there is no “only RBIs” sequence.


If desired, G#3 can be tuned to F3 (instead of C#4) and this m3 should beat no slower (a tiny bit faster) than A#3-D4 which has already been tuned. Then there will be no SBIs to tune.

But I am sure I could come up with an all RBI sequence starting with an initial set of CM3s. After the initial set is tuned, M6s can be tuned with beat rates that fall halfway between the initial set of CM3s to produce a second set of CM3s. Then m3s can be tuned to beat the same as the first set of M3s (because of iH) to produce the third set of CM3s. And the fourth set of CM3s would be tuned with M6s that beat the same as M3s in the second set. At least that is how I imagine it in my head. It would have to cover more than one octave, though.
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#1359144 - 01/27/10 02:49 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Loc: Mexico City
Also the sequence I designed uses only CM3 and Cm3s, but I believe 4ths, 5ths and 8ves must be always checked.
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#1359312 - 01/27/10 11:01 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Loc: Mexico City
BDB,

As I promised, here is my piano tuned in ET.


Equal Temperament


My piano is a studio Petrof model P117K1, 46" tall.

There you can also see other videos where I play:

Moonlight Sonata 1st mvt, Beethoven
Pathetic Sonata 2nd mvt, Beethoven
Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain Medley, David Lanz

I am not a pianist, so please excuse my poor interpretation.


I would be pleased to hear a piano tuned in ET by you. It is not necessary to play music, you can just play runs of intervals as I did in my video, to show the eveness of the temperament and the stretching of intervals.




Edited by Gadzar (01/27/10 11:10 AM)
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#1359346 - 01/27/10 11:47 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

Here is an all RBI sequence I worked up just to see what could be done. Notice that, except for A4 while tuning the CM3 ladder, all the notes are in the temperament octave. I ran it though a simulator with a Yamaha U1 and 4:2 octaves. The result was that all RBIs were progressive, the 4ths were from 0.6 to 1.1 bps and the 5ths were from 0.6 to 0.8 bps. It makes use of an effect of iH that causes m3s to beat about ½ bps faster than they theoretically would relative to M3s in the temperament octave. I do not think this would work with harmonic tones. I did not bother figuring what checks to use, and the results would of course be somewhat different with other octave types or a different piano.

Here are the resulting offsets in cents:

F3 -1.3
F#3 -1.2
G3 -1.5
G#3 -1.4
A3 -1.4
A#3 -1.1
B3 -1.3
C4 -1.1
C#4 -1.0
D4 -1.1
D#4 -0.7
E4 -0.8
F4 -0.5

Tune a ladder of CM3s from F3 to A4.

Tune D4 to F3 to beat between F3-A3 and A3-C#4

Tune G#3 to F3 to beat between A3-C#4 and C#4-F4

Tune A#3 to D4 to beat the same as G#3-F4

Tune G3 to A#3 to beat the same as C#4-F4

Tune B3 to G3 to beat the same as F3-D4

Tune D#4 to B3 to beat the same as F3-G#3

Tune E4 to G3 to beat the same as A3-C#4

Tune C4 to G#3 to beat between G3-B3 and A3-C#4

Tune F#3 to A#3 to beat between F3-A3 and G3-B3




Now I am not saying that anyone, especially me, could actually get these results from this sequence on an actual piano. Hope you find this amusing, if nothing else. laugh
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#1359364 - 01/27/10 12:11 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Tooner,

As I have no U1 to try this sequence, I can not use the offsets you give, all I can do is guessing about how it would sound by the instructions you give to temper each tuned interval. Theoretically it seems to be correct, it is very similar to how I actually tune ET (CM3/Cm3). It gives a lot of available checks and it is self correcting, not error cumulative, etc. A good one, I guess.

Maybe if you tune a real piano using this sequence an give us a recording of it, we can all hear how it sounds like.


Edited by Gadzar (01/27/10 12:19 PM)
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#1359374 - 01/27/10 12:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

Sorry, it is unlikely that I will even try it. I do not like tuning with RBIs and do poorly at it. Nor do I have any recording equipment. But the sequence should work with any acoustical piano with an appropriate octave, just a little differently, but that is what checks and final checks are for.
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#1359798 - 01/27/10 09:08 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City

Here is the sequence I use to tune ET. It is an all RBI sequence, but that is not relevant at all. The goal is not to avoid tuning SBIs but "letting the piano tell you" what the tempering of M3s, m3s, P4s and P5s must be in order to fit in the temperament octave.

Contiguous Major-minor Thirds Temperament.

Summary

1. A4<-Fork
2. A3<-A4
3. F3<-A3
4. F3->F4
5. A3->C#4
6. F3->G#3
7. G#3->G#4
8. D4<-F4
9. G#3->B3
10. F#3<-A3
11. F#3->F#4
12. A3->C4
13. C4->D#4
14. A#3<-C#4
15. G3<-A#3
16. G3->G4
17. C#4->E4

In this sequence there are no absolute figures to be tuned, but all the beat rates are self-established in a way that 3 CM3s and 4 Cm3s fit in the octave (build up the octave).

If anyone is interested, the details and checks of the sequence are given here:

Modern tuning theory from a mathematical perspective
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#1360025 - 01/28/10 05:27 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I guess there is a sequence, but the piano does not tell you it only do its own thing to the less resistance path.




Edited by Kamin (01/28/10 07:10 AM)
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#1360035 - 01/28/10 06:53 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Mark R. Offline
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Gadzar,

With the outside-M6-inside-M3 test (e.g. playing C3-A3, then D3-F#3), what exactly do you listen for? Do you compare the beat rate of the M6 with that of the M3, and is the idea that they should be the same?
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#1360127 - 01/28/10 10:36 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Mark R.]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Mark,

Yes, the idea is to have almost the same beat rate in the M6 and M3. Theoretically the M6 should beat approximately 0.2 bps faster than the M3. But in practice this difference is barely noticeable. In the video this is not perceived anyway.

Here are the theoretical beat rates:

F3-D4/G3-B3 = 7.9/7.8 bps
F#3-D#4/G#3-C4 = 8.4/8.2 bps
G3-E4/A3-C#4 = 8.9/8.7 bps
G#3-F4/A#3-D4 = 9.4/9.2 bps
A3-F#4/B3-D#4 = 10.0/9.8 bps
A#3-G4/C4-E4 = 10.6/10.4 bps
B3- G#4/C#4-F4 = 11.2/11.0 bps
C4-A4/D4-F#4 = 11.9/11.7 bps



Edited by Gadzar (01/28/10 10:55 AM)
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#1360160 - 01/28/10 11:32 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
I guess BDB is not going to answer me.

So I invite all posters in this forum to comment on my video of the ET I just tuned in my piano.

My piano is a studio Petrof, P117K1, 46” tall (1.17 mtrs).

Please focus on the temperament evenness and the stretch of the tuning, I know some unisons are a bit off and piano needs voicing.

Equal Temperament

I am not a pianist but I play some easy pieces of music.

Here they are:

Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain Medley, David Lanz

Pathetic Sonata, 2nd mvt., Beethoven

Moonlight Sonata, 1st mvt., Beethoven.
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#1360181 - 01/28/10 12:40 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

You asked, otherwise I would not mention it. And since I am not your customer, my opinion does not mean anything.

The D3, F#3 and A#3 are all just a tad sharp, the F#3 more than the other two. Since these notes are all in the same set of CM3s it is hardly noticeable with the chromatic M3 test. But if you listen carefully to other tests it shows up, especially the 17th - 12th comparison. The M6 outside M3 inside tests were a little quick for me to lock into the beat rates.
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#1360509 - 01/28/10 09:38 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Thanks Tooner.

Let's see:

C3 and C#3 are on the bass bridge. Wound bichords.

D3 is the first note on the treble bridge, it is also a wound bichord unison. D#3 is too a wound bichord.

Plain trichords start with E3. So it is the region where jumps in iH are to be expected and some compromises must be done. At that respect I always give priority to RBIs over SBIs.

After reading your comment I've checked these notes and there is a smooth uniform progression of M3s, and the fifth D3-A3 is indeed a little busy compared to its chromatic neighbours, but I guess I tuned it that way because I worked using M3s.

The other two notes F#3 and A#3 present almost the same problem: correct progression of M3s with not so clean SBIs.

You have a good ear! The quality of the recording is poor. In fact I hear many more things at the piano than are present in the video.

For the M6 inside M3 tests, yes, they were too quick. I didn't noticed that until I watched the video. At the piano the beat rates are much more discernible. It is as if the vibrations felt with our fingers were helping the ear.


Edited by Gadzar (01/28/10 10:03 PM)
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#1360647 - 01/29/10 01:53 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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If you really want to hear a tuning I did, you can try downloading files.me.com/bdboakland/17qdqz.mp3 . It is a very old recording, over 20 years old I think, not particularly well recorded, and the performers just stopped in to try out some music, so the tuning might have been kind of old. But it is a decent piece for demonstrating a temperament.

Interestingly enough, the piano, an 1896 or so Steinway A, which I hoped might end its days in some quiet home situation, is now in a recording studio, which means you may have heard it and my tuning without knowing what it is.
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#1360659 - 01/29/10 03:06 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I guess BDB is not going to answer me.

So I invite all posters in this forum to comment on my video of the ET I just tuned in my piano.

My piano is a studio Petrof, P117K1, 46” tall (1.17 mtrs).

Please focus on the temperament evenness and the stretch of the tuning, I know some unisons are a bit off and piano needs voicing.

Equal Temperament

I am not a pianist but I play some easy pieces of music.

Here they are:

Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain Medley, David Lanz

Pathetic Sonata, 2nd mvt., Beethoven

Moonlight Sonata, 1st mvt., Beethoven.




Good job Raphaêl ! I did not analyze why but the Ed 5th is larger, it reproduce afterthat in the basses.

I feel the tempering is better from F3 to F4 than in the lower octave where the progression of thirds raise a bit too fast.

Also may be I hear beats of high partials in the bass chords which tone well but I feel like if they could have more tonal value (probably more tight would be better ? , sorry if it does not make sense)

Recording the 17ths would tell

probably due to the recording but I like a bit more air in the tone but also octaves. All in all it is a very good job (I suppose in the recipe for tuning exam as PTG ask (?).

I'll post you privately.

Thanks for sharing I hope others will make comments as well.

If all tuners would tune at that precision level that would yet be nice !

voice a bit the C's (professionals pianists are ashamed it when I show them that the C of their pianos are more used than other notes !!)



Edited by Kamin (01/29/10 03:09 AM)
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#1360662 - 01/29/10 03:17 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
If you really want to hear a tuning I did, you can try downloading files.me.com/bdboakland/17qdqz.mp3 . It is a very old recording, over 20 years old I think, not particularly well recorded, and the performers just stopped in to try out some music, so the tuning might have been kind of old. But it is a decent piece for demonstrating a temperament.

Interestingly enough, the piano, an 1896 or so Steinway A, which I hoped might end its days in some quiet home situation, is now in a recording studio, which means you may have heard it and my tuning without knowing what it is.


Thanks so much,

Indeed the recording quality is not good but the unisons are tight , to me they are not open.

The pianists seem to enjoy the piano which is certainly good.

I cant say about justness but it is not chocking to me, only the tone, and unisons.

Sorry have no time to listen closely.

The Bach is nice !
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#1360704 - 01/29/10 07:18 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
If you really want to hear a tuning I did, you can try downloading files.me.com/bdboakland/17qdqz.mp3 . It is a very old recording, over 20 years old I think, not particularly well recorded, and the performers just stopped in to try out some music, so the tuning might have been kind of old. But it is a decent piece for demonstrating a temperament.

Interestingly enough, the piano, an 1896 or so Steinway A, which I hoped might end its days in some quiet home situation, is now in a recording studio, which means you may have heard it and my tuning without knowing what it is.


Listening to a piano that was tuned 20 years ago should show how stable the tuning was!
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#1360728 - 01/29/10 08:59 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Rafael, I cannot believe that people are picking apart certain intervals of your tuning as if that would really make a difference in how anyone would perceive music from a piano you tuned in ET. I abandoned tuning pianos in ET over 20 years ago, have tuned more than 20,000 pianos with intervals which differ substantially from ET each and every time, have collected my fees, paid my bills, earned my living and keep those customers year after year.

If intervals of a certain size were really a requirement, I think I would have heard something about that by now. Yet, I still have people on here telling me, warning me, in fact, that what I have done for the past 20 years cannot be done, will not work and would be rejected by any pianist or performing artist as soon as they touch the piano. Obviously, that is not true.

I would much rather hear the three pieces you offered in the EBVT III as you have learned to tune it. It would be thrilling to hear you play the long, C Major arpeggio across the piano so that we can all hear the "pipe organ" effect!

My own offerings are still in the works but will probably be delayed until the end of February now as Grandpianoman has not yet received the new damper tray that he needs for his piano. I'll make both sound files and You Tube videos.

Don't be afraid to do it, Rafael. You can expect that a few people on here will say the same things they've always said, that it sounds terrible, nobody ever asked them for that, ET only, etc. but you already know as I do where the real music comes from. My own opinion of the way the music sounded on your recordings is that ET ruined it. It took all of the life and expression that the music, as it was written away and left only intervals to listen to.

Why should we care what those who afraid to find where the true beauty of piano music is found try to tell us when we already know better than that and have experienced it time after time? You do not need to prove that you can tune ET. There is really only one reason that piano technicians try to suppress the exploration of any kind of tuning which they consider to be non-standard: it is the deep seated fear that they cannot do the same thing, don't want to learn anything new but some day will be asked to do it. All they can do is condemn such practices in hopes that no one will ever ask them to do something they don't know how to do and do not want to learn.
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#1360734 - 01/29/10 09:14 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Gadzar Offline
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Bill,

Before the recording my piano was tuned to EBVT III, I tuned it in ET just to show BDB how I tune ET.

Now that it is detuned, I mean tuned in ET, I wonder if I can tune it in reverse well and make some tests.

And after showing the reverse well, retune it in EBVT III and record again the same 3 pieces, getting a way to compare the results. But, as I am a bad player, I'm afraid that would be not worth.

I'll have to find some free time, and a little courage, to make the tunings and recordings. It takes more than two hours to upload those videos in youtube.

Can someone tell me how can I do better quality recordings? What equipment do I need? At present I am using a video camera which produces .mpg files but I don't like the results, mainly the audio is horrible. And furthermore there is no need of the video, audio files suffice.


Edited by Gadzar (01/29/10 09:22 AM)
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#1360742 - 01/29/10 09:30 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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BDB, I've heard your file.

The piano sounds good. I can not distinguish a temperament by listening to a unique isolated piece without comparing it to another temperament. But I've found no disonances in the harmonies, I guess this means ET.

I am with Kamin, I don't know what he exaclty means by "tight" but I didn't like the sound of some unisons.

For the stretch I believe the bass matches perfectly the tenor and treble.
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#1360749 - 01/29/10 09:42 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kamin
Good job Raphaêl ! I did not analyze why but the Ed 5th is larger, it reproduce afterthat in the basses.


(Thanks Kamin, I am glad you think I did a good job, your opinion is very important to me as you are a very fine tuner.)

I don't understand what you say about "Ed 5th is larger", can you please explain more on this? What is Ed 5th? Maybe is there a typo?
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#1360750 - 01/29/10 09:44 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Bill:

Gadzar asked for a critique: "Please focus on the temperament evenness and the stretch of the tuning..." And you use the replies as an excuse to go OT about unequal temperaments!


Edited by UnrightTooner (01/29/10 10:04 AM)
Edit Reason: deleted insult
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#1360761 - 01/29/10 09:57 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Tooner,

I've appreciated your observations: Critiques always give us the opportunity to learn something if we are open minded.

I also appreciated Bill’s observations. He commented on the tuning I did and on the results I’ve got. He focused more on the musical results than on the quality of intervals. I can also learn a lot from this.
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#1360763 - 01/29/10 10:01 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

Yes, you're right. Kumbya...
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#1360794 - 01/29/10 10:33 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Good job Raphaêl ! I did not analyze why but the Ed 5th is larger, it reproduce afterthat in the basses.


(Thanks Kamin, I am glad you think I did a good job, your opinion is very important to me as you are a very fine tuner.)

I don't understand what you say about "Ed 5th is larger", can you please explain more on this? What is Ed 5th? Maybe is there a typo?


I did not have time to listen closely, I'll try later. The Eb Bb 5th is larger probably, I find the Eb out of range a tiny little and find the same in the bass so I traced it to the temperament.

as you stated wound wire..


But You may listen to 5ths they are the musician interval by excellence, as said before we in any case have to check all intervals, at a moment or another (better then in the temperament zone, indeed).
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#1360796 - 01/29/10 10:35 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar
BDB, I've heard your file.

The piano sounds good. I can not distinguish a temperament by listening to a unique isolated piece without comparing it to another temperament. But I've found no disonances in the harmonies, I guess this means ET.

I am with Kamin, I don't know what he exaclty means by "tight" but I didn't like the sound of some unisons.

For the stretch I believe the bass matches perfectly the tenor and treble.


tight : close , not enough air, or light, or whatever very immaterial concept you can come with (while I am sure there is a acoustical explanation which is pretty simple, probably ...)

2 parts in tone : strenght/timing of the stabilisation,(called "attack") and spread of the partial halo.

We tune from those both directions, listening with ears and fingers, checking for the energy spread and its use, and checking as well for the coupling of partials.

With only those 2 concepts you can tune a whole range of unisons.

One of the nicest thing that add energy is the "charging" of upper part of the system : tuning pin and the little wire segment under it. (patented concept !) done with the test blow at the speed of light, it manage to put the system in the best position for an open tone.




Edited by Kamin (01/29/10 10:42 AM)
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#1360882 - 01/29/10 12:42 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Bill,

Now that it is detuned, I mean tuned in ET, I wonder if I can tune it in reverse well and make some tests.

And after showing the reverse well, retune it in EBVT III and record again the same 3 pieces, getting a way to compare the results. But, as I am a bad player, I'm afraid that would be not worth.



Yes, Rafael, do it! Transpose each of the values for the EBVT III up one half step, example, C= the value for C#, C#=D, D=D#, etc. and use the Verituner or whichever ETD.

Ask people to guess which is reverse well and which is ET. I bet that more than half of the guesses will be wrong. It will show that the really bad sound is actually ET and that even a backwards version of a WT actually sounds better than ET does.
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#1360909 - 01/29/10 01:11 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Ask people to guess which is reverse well and which is ET. I bet that more than half of the guesses will be wrong. It will show that the really bad sound is actually ET and that even a backwards version of a WT actually sounds better than ET does.

You should do this, Mr. Bremmer, rather than asking someone else to do it, particularly someone without your experience.
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#1360915 - 01/29/10 01:18 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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The trouble with anyone doing this is the temperaments could be sabotoaged to make one sound better than the other.
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#1360921 - 01/29/10 01:21 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
BDB Offline
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Yes, and very few people would know the difference. Temperaments are not the first thing people listen to. After all, most instruments use different temperaments when they are played normally. Stringed instruments use different temperaments from wind instruments, and neither of them are the same as pianos.
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#1360924 - 01/29/10 01:28 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Wouldn't it be interesting if people preferred a well temperament transposed up a semitone, or better yet 6 semitones, (I choose not to use the made-up term for this) to a traditional well temperament?

But this is gong down a path other than the subject of this Topic. A new Topic would be appropriate.
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#1360933 - 01/29/10 01:39 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
Yes, and very few people would know the difference. Temperaments are not the first thing people listen to. After all, most instruments use different temperaments when they are played normally. Stringed instruments use different temperaments from wind instruments, and neither of them are the same as pianos.


Very astute BDB. I was hoping for this to come out here.
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#1360934 - 01/29/10 01:41 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: UnrightTooner]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Wouldn't it be interesting if people preferred a well temperament transposed up a semitone, or better yet 6 semitones, (I choose not to use the made-up term for this) to a traditional well temperament?

But this is gong down a path other than the subject of this Topic. A new Topic would be appropriate.


Now this would surprise a lot of members here, and this is the type of thing that should be attempted...
New topic Jeff??
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#1360940 - 01/29/10 01:50 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Not me. I am not all that interested. But I do wonder sometimes how the Bb trumpet, as the lead voice in North American music education, might effect what people expect to hear. The Bb chord (in the power range) is in just intonation while the C chord has a major third that is 2 cents wider than ET.
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#1360944 - 01/29/10 01:53 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Well, here it is: Reverse Well Temperament.

This is the Anton Bemetzrieder Reverse Well Temperament of 1808.

It is a strong colored Well Temperament identical to the Vallotti-Young transposed down one semitone.

In this Reverse Well temperament six fifths are pure and the other six fifths are equally tempered, twice as tempered than in Equal Temperament.

The aural procedure to tune this temperament is to tune pure all fifths between white keys and to tune tempered all fifths that involve one or more black keys.

Pure fifths = C-G, D-A, E-B, F-C, G-D, A-E
Tempered fifths = C#-G#, D#-A#, F#-C#, G#-D#, A#-F, B-F#

When testing this temperament it may be possible to find that a theoretical pure fifth is in fact a little tempered to the wide side. Also a theoretical tempered fifth may sound almost pure. Why? Because iH of the strings tends to bring wider than theoretical intervals. Though Major thirds in this temperament behave as theoretically expected. That is M3 of the simpler keys sound harsh and M3s of the remote keys sound more harmonious.

In the video I made a mistake when saying that thirds sound horrible. What I mean is that some of them sound horrible. Some of them in fact sound better than in ET.

The color of the Keys is also inverted. Simpler keys sound busy and remote keys sound harmonious. So in this temperament pieces in the remote keys will sound better than in ET but music written in the simpler keys will sound harsh. So what says UnrightTooner of people liking more Reverse Well would be no surprise. It will depend on how strong is the coloration of the keys. And what keys are most used by this person.

Reverse Well
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#1360946 - 01/29/10 01:58 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

What exactly did Anton Bemetzrieder call his temperament?
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#1360982 - 01/29/10 02:47 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
[quote=Bill Bremmer RPT]

You should do this, Mr. Bremmer, rather than asking someone else to do it, particularly someone without your experience.


Well, he already did it and did a fine job! I only wish some music had been played (although the You Tube video stalled before the end, so I don't know what may have been there). I have heard many pianos which have sounded more or less like this although most are not so precisely done. This had the pure 4ths and 5ths perfectly pure and the tempered 4ths & 5ths all tempered twice as much as in ET and all the same. Since reverse well is virtually never deliberately done, they are usually not quite as regularly structured.

That is why I recommended tuning the EBVT III electronically but transposing all the values up 1/2 step (down 1/2 step would work too). The EBVT III is an irregular Victorian style WT. "Irregular" only means that the tempering of the 4ths and 5ths varies from one to another. A reverse EBVT III but without the carefully constructed octaves would be a better representation of what I usually come across. Even that would be more precisely constructed than the usual results of erroneous tempering found by 4ths & 5ths tuners for whom the piano did not "tell" the tuner when the tempering was correct (on topic).
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#1360991 - 01/29/10 02:57 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Gadzar:

What exactly did Anton Bemetzrieder call his temperament?



There is a long section on this in Owen Jorgensen's book, Tuning. He Bemetzreider did not have a name for what he did, only several attempts at what by his description of what he was trying to accomplish would be called ET today. He also berated the methods of other tuners of his time saying that they were too wrapped up in theory and did not follow what was obvious to a musically trained ear.
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#1360996 - 01/29/10 03:00 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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He beilieved he was tuning Equal Temperament.

It is known as a Pytagorean Temperament used as a substitute from Equal Temperament.

Pytagorean because he tunes pure fifths. Substitute from Equal Temperament because he tempers 6 fifths at 1/6 of a comma aiming to make it "disappear".

He was aware that in just intonation there is a difference betwen flats and sharps i.e. Eb and D#. He called this a "differential coma".

In his own words:

"the differential comas disappear under the hammer of the tuner, and both chromatic and diatonic half tones become equal, the one loosing what the other gaines".

He wrote:

"Tune the fifths for the flats and sharps not quite so full as your ear can bear them, you will make differential comas disappear, without any further tempering. C and F flats will coincide with B and E, and B and E sharps will coincide with F and C".

He used an F fork to start with.

If you do the mathematics of these tuning instructions you'll come to the Vallotti-Young Well Temperament, transposed one half tone down.



Edited by Gadzar (01/29/10 03:29 PM)
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#1360997 - 01/29/10 03:01 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

The trouble with anyone doing this is the temperaments could be sabotoaged to make one sound better than the other.


If you already took Gadzar's rendering of ET as acceptable, there would be no reason to sabotage it. Just put the two recordings, one ET, one reverse well side by side in random order and ask people to identify which is which.

Nobody is trying to fool anybody. I already know the entire world has been fooled already.
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#1361002 - 01/29/10 03:09 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Here is Bach's Prelude N° 1, in C Major, from the Well Tempered Clavier, with the piano still tuned in Reverse Well.

The prelude loses all its musical meaning. The harmonies create tension where they must release it and visceversa.

Prelude N°1 in C Major. Bach. Reverse Well.



Edited by Gadzar (01/29/10 03:36 PM)
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#1361011 - 01/29/10 03:18 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Inlanding Offline
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Hi Rafael, Bill, and all...

As a novice wanna-be tuner/tech, I have been following this thread with great interest.

Ultimately, is it the musicality of the instrument's tuning as a whole the concern, or exactly which temperament is pressing against the bridge?

Here is a recording of my attempt at trying to acheive an equal temperament. My main checks are m3, M3, M6, M10ths, 17ths. I tune the fourths slightly wider than the fifths are narrow (too old school?). As I do the checks up the scale it is clear that some of the intervals 6ths/10ths/17ths do not increase equally. Does this uncategorically mean it is not equal, or can this be expected due to the scale of the piano, inharmonicity, etc?

I suspect it is not even close to being equal, even though playing in the key of C Major is equally as musical as playing in any other key. What should I be listening for with this? True, some minor/major keys ring more than others, etc. Yes, consistency is key, I know...it is a work in progress. wink

Bach's Prelude in C Major BWV 846

Glen
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#1361032 - 01/29/10 03:44 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Inlanding]
Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted By: Inlanding
Ultimately, is it the musicality of the instrument's tuning as a whole the concern, or exactly which temperament is pressing against the bridge?


Musicality of course! But it is attained through temperament.

Nice tuning. Good unisons. What kind of piano are you playing? How did you do the recording?
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#1361036 - 01/29/10 03:51 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Offline
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Here is: Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain Medley. By David Lanz. Played in Reverse Well Temperament.

As it is written in the key of A flat Major, it may sound better in Reverse Well than in Equal Temperament. I personally believe that it lacks character, it is too mellow, too much harmonious.

Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain. David Lanz. Reverse Well Temperament.






Edited by Gadzar (01/29/10 04:05 PM)
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#1361078 - 01/29/10 04:47 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Here is Bach's Prelude N° 1, in C Major, from the Well Tempered Clavier, with the piano still tuned in Reverse Well.

The prelude loses all its musical meaning. The harmonies create tension where they must release it and visceversa.

Prelude N°1 in C Major. Bach. Reverse Well.



Beautiful example, Rafael! That is approximately the way most people are used to hearing it. The harmony is so confused, you really don't know why you're modulating, you just are and for most people, that is all ET means to them. This was ET to Bemetzrieder, why not to everybody else for the entire 20th Century?
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#1361080 - 01/29/10 04:49 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
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Excellent tone, Inlanding, I like it !
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#1361090 - 01/29/10 04:57 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Here is: Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain Medley. By David Lanz. Played in Reverse Well Temperament.

As it is written in the key of A flat Major, it may sound better in Reverse Well than in Equal Temperament. I personally believe that it lacks character, it is too mellow, too much harmonious.

Behind the Waterfall & Desert Rain. David Lanz. Reverse Well Temperament.

There are a lot of people who play a lot of music among mostly the black keys, Debussy, Chopin, etc. and Jazz who have long accepted reverse well tunings by the tuners who habitually tune that way.

As Piqué once suggested, there are people who do NOT hire me because they know I am known for the way I tune the piano and I fully accept that. There are some who proudly profess their loyalty to a certain tuner in town who of course, says he only tunes in ET but what he really does is a fairly strong reverse well. His clients talk about the "sweetness" of his reverse well tunings and are firmly convinced that they are ET. Most of them are the Jazz, late Romantic and Impressionist era players who have become accustomed to the sound. There is even a concert by George Winston that was recorded here in Madison in reverse well.



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#1361101 - 01/29/10 05:14 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence exist? [Re: Gadzar]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
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Hi,
I use both methods interchangeably when the situation calls for it. M3s definately offer a higher level of precision than 4ths/5ths and that's why they are favoured by many aural tuners. Having said that, tuning using only 4ths/5ths uses M3s and M6s when using check notes, so it is hard to find a technique that is purely 4ths/5ths.
I imagine some technicians preference to using 4ths/5ths may be due to the challenge of being able to hear the coincidental partial (CP) beating clearly. I give courses to students and technicians learning to tune and repair pianos or improve their skills and this is the approach I use to help them hear thirds (and their CPs) better

1. Ghost the coincidental partial. (play interval with no sound. Strike C.P. loudly and listen) Only works if CP is close to freq. of harmonics of each interval note.

2. Turn and move head slowly, all around. This changes the filtering characteristics of the ear canal and filters different frequencies depending on angle. Also, frequencies are more alive at different spots in the room. This technique actually can filter out completely the CP you are trying to hear or actenuate it depending on head angle and position. Just think of Rockwell's painting of The Tuner.

3. Focus the ear like a radio. Gently play the CP a number of times and listen carefully to its frequency. Think of attenuating your ear to that frequency. Then play the interval mf and see if it helps. Use the techniques in #2 to help as well.

Having said that, tuning using only 4ths/5ths does in fact let the piano tell you if, after tuning the whole temperament, you "temper" all the intervals to give the same quality of rolling 5ths and noisy 4ths. It should only fit for that piano if the sizes are those that fit with that piano. But good precision is harder to get than with 3rds in my opinion. Some people say there is no such thing as ET anyway; there is always a variation, perfectly even 3rds are impossible to attain. But we can get very close. Others say perfect ET is over-rated anyway; many professional concert pianists are not able to tell if the thirds are not increasing evenly throughout the temperament. It can become quite the philosophical question.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, Mech.Eng.
Mr. Tuner Piano Service and Techncian's School
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#1361112 - 01/29/10 05:29 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Olek]
Inlanding Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Inlanding
Ultimately, is it the musicality of the instrument's tuning as a whole the concern, or exactly which temperament is pressing against the bridge?


Musicality of course! But it is attained through temperament.

Nice tuning. Good unisons. What kind of piano are you playing? How did you do the recording?


Thanks, Rafael. Thanks to Bill, Issac, and Kent, I am slowly, but surely getting the hang of it, working on consistency, with proper unisons the key. The piano is a remarkably fine condition 1917 Steinway O, the NY Steinway hammers are about 20 years old, unplayed until the last year, the treble strings are original, only the wound strings have been replaced (6 months ago).

As for recording, it is a borrowed Olympus digital recorder. Placement is key - I think I finally found a good placement for it. I am looking at which recorder to purchase for my own.


Originally Posted By: Kamin
Excellent tone, Inlanding, I like it !


Thanks, Issac. Improvements are being made, time and practice are the key elements. Thanks for all your help!



Enjoy the weekend, gentlemen.

Glen
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#1361128 - 01/29/10 05:47 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Mark:

Welcome Aboard!

All:

I made a large error in this earlier post:

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Not me. I am not all that interested. But I do wonder sometimes how the Bb trumpet, as the lead voice in North American music education, might effect what people expect to hear. The Bb chord (in the power range) is in just intonation while the C chord has a major third that is 2 cents wider than ET.


Actually the major third in the (concert) C major chord of a Bb trumpet, in the power range, would be 16 cents wider than ET.
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#1361327 - 01/29/10 11:21 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: UnrightTooner]
Gadzar Offline
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Loc: Mexico City
Today, while tuning the Bemetzrieder Temperament I wonder how difficult it was to the tuners of 19th Century to tune a piano.

They didn't know anything about iH. So I see them trying to tune a pure octave, a pure fifth and finding that the resulting fourth was not so pure! Why? because of iH, we now know that but at the time they didn't.

For them tuning was an art. For us it is only knowledge and technique.


Edited by Gadzar (01/29/10 11:22 PM)
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#1361333 - 01/29/10 11:40 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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There is nothing in the way that I tune that could not have been done by a 19th century tuner.
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#1361369 - 01/30/10 01:01 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Gadzar Offline
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Loc: Mexico City
So you make 19th century tunings? (just kidding)

At that time they didn't know how to tune true ET! The best they could do was Quasi Equal Temperaments.

It was until 20th Century that Braid White wrote his method of tuning ET.

In 19th century tuners did not tuned fast beating intervals, i.e. thirds, sixths, tenths, 17ths. Nor they heared at them. At least not as we now do it estimating beat rates, they only judged their "color".

How do I know what they did? Because of Owen H. Jorgensen's big red book:


Tuning
The Perfection of 18th Century Temperament
The Lost Art of 19th Century Temperament
And
The Science of Equal Temperament




Edited by Gadzar (01/30/10 01:10 AM)
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#1361374 - 01/30/10 01:11 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
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Nonsense! Nobody knows for certain what was done, but they could have tuned equal temperament at any time.
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#1361493 - 01/30/10 08:42 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gadzar

It was until 20th Century that Braid White wrote his method of tuning ET.


In the year 1911 Joseph C. Miller published the frequencies of all the notes in ET as well as the beating frequencies of all the testing intervals. In Miller’s tables, one can observe the truths of the nearly equal-beating pairs of intervals that are used by the finest aural tuners.

Braid-White republished the same tables for his book in 1917.

Owen Jorgensen /Oct.2009
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#1361509 - 01/30/10 09:36 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
leomtodd Offline
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I hear the difference in both of the Bach preludes but I am new and confused but I don't know about what I like the one that inlanding did better than the reverse well temperment.Would reverse mean expanded 5ths and contracted fourths. I am up to 60 pianos tuned each one sounds better to me but my mentor is 4 hours away and haven't found another one closer. so i rely on me to hear. I practice every day on my piano at school.

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#1361521 - 01/30/10 10:02 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

It was until 20th Century that Braid White wrote his method of tuning ET.


In the year 1911 Joseph C. Miller published the frequencies of all the notes in ET as well as the beating frequencies of all the testing intervals. In Miller’s tables, one can observe the truths of the nearly equal-beating pairs of intervals that are used by the finest aural tuners.

Braid-White republished the same tables for his book in 1917.

Owen Jorgensen /Oct.2009


And throughout the 20th Century and now 10 years into the 21st Century, none of these beat frequencies ever helped the people who still tune in reverse well. The ET via Marpurg sequence permits a tuner who does not have the skills or perception to manage the myriad of RBI checks that it takes to tune a true ET. While the strategy was meant for novices, I have already received a report from an RPT who now uses it and is tuning a better sounding temperament than he ever could before using only the skills that a 17th through 19th Century tuner would have known.

There has been other documentation of other 19th Century schemes that could possibly, just possibly have resulted in what we would accept as ET today. Just because someone wrote a book or other kind of publication, it does not mean that all people who tuned pianos or other kinds of keyboards read that publication, much less were able to put successfully the principles into practice.

Therefore, yes, there could have been a few people, here or there at almost any time who may have been able to tune a true ET. There are a few people today who studied the Braide-White book, tune from either an A or a C fork and really do tune quite a fine sounding ET. But what about all the others?

If anyone rejects the label, "reverse well" (which I did NOT make up), then what label would you put on a temperament where C Major, G Major and F Major are always the worst sounding keys and F# Major, A-flat Major, B Major and D-flat Major always sound the sweetest?

Of course, the imperfect results of using a 4ths & 5ths temperament do not have to be reverse well, they could be a crude form of a well temperament or they could also be a kind of disorganized imperfect form of ET which is what is known as a Quasi ET and that is what most 19th Century tuners did according to Owen Jorgensen.

I might add that when Owen Jorgensen analyzed the EBVT III, he found that it was virtually the same as one of Neidhardt's (17th Century, I think, without looking it up) attempts at tuning ET. The mistake that these early tuners always made was to create equal beating intervals which cannot exist in a true ET.

"Equal" does not mean "equal" so to speak. Also, it was difficult then and still is today for tuners today to temper a 4th or 5th just a "little". Inevitably, the error is made toward the just 5th as John Travis pointed out. These little mistakes result in some kind of arrangement that in the past as well as today cannot be considered a true ET.
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#1361540 - 01/30/10 10:34 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Gadzar Offline
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Loc: Mexico City
1911 is the 20th Century, as is 1917.

Mathematically, ET was known centuries before 20th. But ET was only tuned in freted instruments, like a guitar, where calculated distances between frets could be fixed in the instrument.

That was not possible in a piano. So it was until 20th century that tuners developped the aural techniques to tune true ET, that is : uniform geometrical progression of beat rates in fast beating intervals. Before that, there were no means to aurally tune the frequencies that were mathematically calculated centuries ago.


For example ET was tuned in pipe organs long before 20th century, because they have the means to calculate exact lengths for the pipes.


Edited by Gadzar (01/30/10 10:46 AM)
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#1361618 - 01/30/10 01:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
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All:

As far as I am concerned the whole unequal temperament argument is like the Emperor’s New Clothes. And I am not afraid to say that they sound out of tune.

And it always occurs that when UTs rear their ugly head around here there is sure to be a bout of Braid Bashing.

You folks enjoy the rest of this Topic which I have been always convinced had the ultimate purpose of Braid Bashing. Just because some folks have difficulty with 4th and 5th tuning does not mean others do. And trying to malign a perfectly good sequence shows the desperate measures that some will go to, to disguise their own perceived inabilities. I am out of here.
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#1361703 - 01/30/10 03:40 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

The trouble with anyone doing this is the temperaments could be sabotoaged to make one sound better than the other.


If you already took Gadzar's rendering of ET as acceptable, there would be no reason to sabotage it. Just put the two recordings, one ET, one reverse well side by side in random order and ask people to identify which is which.

Nobody is trying to fool anybody. I already know the entire world has been fooled already.


I have never stated that I accept Raphael’s video of ET as acceptable. I don’t see where anyone else has either.

The only way this kind of a comparison can be achieved is by a “double blind study”. As we are all members of this forum, the temperaments and the videos of them would have to be done by an independent, impartial third party who does not have a vested interest in the final outcome.

I do not see any of us here who suffer from that type of unbiased impartiality.

As a matter of fact I would venture further to state that most technicians will have a preference to tuning one way or the other. So to find someone to complete these temperaments and videos for tests in a fair and independent manner would be difficult indeed.

This is not to question anyone’s integrity here but this is how scientific studies are completed.
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#1361705 - 01/30/10 03:41 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

It was until 20th Century that Braid White wrote his method of tuning ET.


In the year 1911 Joseph C. Miller published the frequencies of all the notes in ET as well as the beating frequencies of all the testing intervals. In Miller’s tables, one can observe the truths of the nearly equal-beating pairs of intervals that are used by the finest aural tuners.

Braid-White republished the same tables for his book in 1917.

Owen Jorgensen /Oct.2009


My comments were directed to the fact that Braid White re-printed those tables for his book. He was not the one who wrote them as per Raphael’s claim.
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#1361707 - 01/30/10 03:49 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
BDB Offline
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Quote:
Mathematically, ET was known centuries before 20th. But ET was only tuned in freted instruments, like a guitar, where calculated distances between frets could be fixed in the instrument.

Guitars have never been equal temperament, unless your tolerances for tuning are extremely lax.
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#1362238 - 01/31/10 12:43 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

It was until 20th Century that Braid White wrote his method of tuning ET.


In the year 1911 Joseph C. Miller published the frequencies of all the notes in ET as well as the beating frequencies of all the testing intervals. In Miller’s tables, one can observe the truths of the nearly equal-beating pairs of intervals that are used by the finest aural tuners.

Braid-White republished the same tables for his book in 1917.

Owen Jorgensen /Oct.2009


My comments were directed to the fact that Braid White re-printed those tables for his book. He was not the one who wrote them as per Raphael’s claim.


Helmholtz published the same information sometime in the middle of the 19th Century. In 1875, Alexander Ellis translated the book into English but according to Owen Jorgensen in his book, Tuning, page 493, "No one read this book except for a few acousticians, music theorists and university music students".

All one has to do is read the first two chapters in Jorgensen's book, Tuning to understand why, although it was remotely possible, ET was not practiced in the 19th Century. The required information simply was not known. Jorgensen felt that this was important enough information to reveal that he put it right up front on pages 1-7 of a book that would continue for 798 pages. In other words, "Heads up, world, it never happened!"

Now, Braide-White and others did publish information that would have made it possible to tune a true ET but I have long maintained that just because he wrote that book, it does not mean that everyone who read it absorbed and practiced the knowledge completely and perfectly.

The tuning manual from the certain correspondence course reverts to essentially what was known in the 19th Century. Following those instructions to the letter, it is virtually impossible to tune ET! While it may seem offensive to the very few people I have known and witnessed who can use BW's methods successfully to say that most technicians cannot, no offense to them was ever intended. If those people can use the method successfully, there is no reason for them to try to use any other.

Having said that, it does not make a lot of sense to try to teach everyone a method which apparently a large majority fail to learn adequately enough to tune ET. Moreover, why teach a method that for most, does not result in ET but leaves the person believing in something that isn't true? That has and only would lead to more technicians incapable of becoming RPTs and passing off reverse well as ET as I have witnessed now for some 25 years that so many technicians do.
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#1362734 - 01/31/10 10:42 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
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Bill, not every tuner learns in the same way. My experience with those tuners who sought out the best teachers to teach them (in person) got the necessary feedback needed to progress and succeed. I must add, they did so with a high success rate from what I seen. Also, not all excellent tuners make good teachers either.

You probably see a bunch of wanna be tuners get tested that learned the trade reading about it on the john...one of the problems of having an open door policy for testing (as long as you pay the membership and testing fees) without an extensive, stringent screening process that should preceed it.
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#1362744 - 01/31/10 10:51 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery


You probably see a bunch of wanna be tuners get tested that learned the trade reading about it on the john...one of the problems of having an open door policy for testing (as long as you pay the membership and testing fees) without an extensive, stringent screening process that should preceed it.


Once again, I only see ridicule and mockery of a process which from your very words, you obviously know NOTHING about. It is quite surprising to me how willing you are to broadcast your complete ignorance at maximum bandwidth.
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#1362750 - 01/31/10 10:56 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
BDB Offline
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I wonder how many of these wannabe tuners read about how wonderful some of these old temperaments are and decide that they should do that instead of learning the basics of tuning.
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#1362756 - 01/31/10 11:08 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Virtually none of them, BDB, most of them got sucked in to the Braide-White method and produced reverse well as a result.
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#1362819 - 02/01/10 12:34 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Once again, I only see ridicule and mockery of a process which from your very words, you obviously know NOTHING about. It is quite surprising to me how willing you are to broadcast your complete ignorance at maximum bandwidth.


I would have welcomed a rebuttal based on some kind of fact...instead I get the usual from you.

I was simply putting two and two together Bill, it says on the PTG site under FAQ's:

" ...It must be emphasized that the Piano Technicians Guild does not have the resources to offer complete schooling in the field of piano technology. Unless fortunate enough to have extended instruction from a private tutor, those entering the trade need to enroll in a good residence-school course or a comprehensive correspondence course in piano technology to gain basic training..."

The words "mandatory", "pre-requisite", "extensive screening process", "References" "trade certificate", "previous education level" ect... are all missing both here and on the membership application. It is more like its "suggested" a person be schooled, certainly not mandated as a necessary requirement. Being asked if you were convicted of a felony also does not reveal ones schooling background and there is no polygraph test...so yes...I stand by what I said. How do you know someone didn't gleen their piano knowledge on the loo with Reblitzs' book in their lap, plop down their money and go and do the test? So when you say they do poorly, maybe its not because they learned from 4ths and 5ths or Braide White or whatever...maybe its because they just didn't learn.

By the way, I'm under the impression Bill that you question my knowledge, level of understanding of things or background from your childish flameouts and accusations. I'm a tested 98th percentile that speaks 3 languages fluently including 6 years of Latin, holds three degrees, two Red Seal Trade Certifications, and an additional Government Trade certification. A person does not attain these things by having the trademark of ignorance.

I know of many techs I respect that decently pull their weight in the trade that are not particularly highly educated, simply because they are good at what they do.

Would it be too much to ask from you to stop using inflamatory words "ignorant" or saying that I don't understand anything, simply because I don't tune like you, agree with your opinions, or belong in the organization you like to thump us with.

These forums don't always deal with fact, often just opinions, so don't act like a child when someone jumps up and down on the back steps because they think the porch light is flickering. Those with self acknowledged "extremist" views should be used to it or at least learned that it comes with the territory.
_________________________
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Niagara Region

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#1362959 - 02/01/10 04:42 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
LOL, I really got your goat, didn't I? As I see it, you are still broadcasting to the world what you don't know and I am not going to try to educate you about it. When you have spent 19 years as one of PTG's tuning examiners as I have, you might then start talking a bit differently. When you actually have some experience using non-equal temperaments in actual practice for 25 years as I have, you might also have a cooler head about it. Otherwise, it only seems to me that you've just been hit on the head again by your own boomerang again while you had your eyes closed.

My only suggestion to you is to join PTG and take the exams and find out where you really do stand in the crowd and my guess would not be any where near the front of it. If you have any ambition at all to move forward, the first thing you should do would be to open your mind. Otherwise, you're going to continue to scream at me about how I am all wrong but I will never listen. As I have always noticed, the reasoning the few oddball technicians there are who refuse to join PTG and take the exams have is always completely irrational. They are ALWAYS afraid to find out what they don't know and you are the the most self absorbed example of it. What I have read from you both public and private is about as extremely irrational as it gets.

I actually respect your knowledge and opinions about a lot of what you write. If, however, you continue to choose to attack me on topics which you have no knowledge or experience, you will find that you have wasted an enormous amount of time and energy to gain nothing and only further isolate yourself.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1363031 - 02/01/10 08:28 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Bill, I'm finished discussing anything with you and will join the majority of folks in here in simply ignoring you. I don't come here to be incessantly pestered by a self appointed PTG Billy Mays. Your ramblings are better suited for a late-nite infomercial. Neither am I going to adapt a 2 steps backwards/1 step forward temperament tuning method or choice because I do fine with my modified Braide White method; my schooling, my past tutors, my peers, my customers and my ETD confirm that it does not need to be turned into the equivilent of a circus side show temperament to turn heads.

I would be an idiot to pay money to an organization and run the risk of being tested by an examiner that does not believe in, or practice in their work, what they thump on the public. I learned long ago, don't stand in front of a goat, behind a mule, or anywhere around a fool.

As for isolation, I have yet to be kicked from any forum or had the reins yanked on me for my contributions. Not from the forum owners, nor from my peers. I know this is not true for you.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1363081 - 02/01/10 09:53 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I do fine with my modified Braide White method

I have yet to know anyone who could tune a passable ET without using information acquired somewhere else than that book.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1363121 - 02/01/10 10:36 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4231
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I do fine with my modified Braide White method

I have yet to know anyone who could tune a passable ET without using information acquired somewhere else than that book.


"A man only hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest......"
The Boxer, Simon and Garfunkel

With all due respect to your years of service there Mr. Bremmer, I think there is enough evidence within these pages that show your preference for unequal temperaments.

Moreover many of the statements you have made on the issue of temperaments seriously bring into question your ability to remain impartial as an examiner in my view.

I am continually surprised actually that the organization of which you are so enamoured with has not realized this conflict of interest/oversight on their part.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1363539 - 02/01/10 07:12 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I suggest both of you get together (and have anybody else you want join in too), write a nice, formal letter to the PTG Home Office, expressing your concerns and see what happens.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1363824 - 02/02/10 03:45 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Beautiful example, Rafael! That is approximately the way most people are used to hearing it.


Well, then I'm not one of "most people". If I asked my tuner for a tuning (implicitly ET), and received my piano with a C4-E4 and F4-A4 M3s that sounded this wide, I'd politely request him to start again, or leave without payment.

I've played on many pianos tuned (presumably) to ET by many tuners, and have never heard anything like this.

For my part, as a non-tuner and in all humility, I can confirm neither that ET tuning almost invariably leads to Reverse Well, nor that "most people" are used to hearing it.

Just my 2 Cents.
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#1363934 - 02/02/10 09:43 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Mark R.]
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
In fact this is a Well Temperament called Bemetzrieder Temperament Number Two, which was designed to sound good in the remote keys, contrary to other Well Temperaments and that's why it is classified as a Reverse Well.

I took it as an example to show how a Reverse Well may sound in the simpler keys.
_________________________
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Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1363986 - 02/02/10 10:51 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Gadzar]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Yes, Gadzar, I understand where your example comes from.

What I don't understand, is Bill's insisting that
1) most tuners' attempts at an ET end up sounding like (or similar to) your example, and
2) that most people are used to hearing something like this.

From my experience (again: I'm no tuner, but have played on many instruments - and being a church accompanist, mainly chorales in the closer keys!) I have simply not heard most pianos actually being tuned purer in the remote keys and more tempered in the closer keys.

If anything, the opposite is true: one of my favourite Christmas carols is in B minor. (J.S. Bach: "Ich steh' an Deiner Krippen hier.") The second last note is A#4 (on an F# chord), the last is B4 (on a B minor chord, or B major if played with a Tierce di Piccardi). I have often cringed at the large F#4-A#4 and B3-D#4 M3s - on many a piano I've played.

So if anything, it seems that most pianos I've played on, are tuned in a slight well temperament - even though I'm sure that the owners never requested this.

Somehow I doubt that South African tuners work SO differently from American tuners (seeing that many of them are actually RPTs).

So where does Bill's assertion come from that Reverse Well is actually the order of the day, that on most pianos, C major actually sounds worse than any other key?

I'm wondering whether anybody else on this forum could confirm Bill's assertion.
_________________________
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LinkedIn profile
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#1364017 - 02/02/10 12:00 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Mark R.]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1744
Loc: Colorado
Hi Mark,
Here is an audio file from earlier of my intention to tune in Equal Temperament.

Because I am still learning to tune by ear, my interest in Equal Temperament is greater than it is for the dozens of other temperaments.

My guess is the feedback I receive from the store where I do floor tunings and from my current customers is that they fully appreciate the musicality of the tunings and request that I come back. They even offer to make referrals.

This piano can be played in all keys equally well, and some keys sound a bit more harmonious than others, but under no circumstance do any intervals or key signature or modulations produce any dissonances such that they are disagreeable (musicality). I just make sure that the 4ths are slightly wider than the 5ths are narrow, then let 3ds, 6ths, 10ths, 17ths guide me the rest of the way up and down the register. I think it is a matter of style and what an expericed tuner uses as their methodology for acheiving a good tuning.

Because I have yet to acquire a computer tuning program, (maybe I will try tunelab at this stage of the game) it is not clear how many cents +/- some of the intervals are, etc, so let's just call this a quasi-equal or nearly-equal temperament. It might not be concert-level-grade, but a close mic reveals any and all glaring flaws.

The work-in-progress continues.

Bach's Prelude in C Major BWV 846

Glen
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#1364259 - 02/02/10 07:17 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Inlanding]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here is an example I found on YouTube of someone playing in reverse well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c8LDWqBrGs&feature=related

If I find others, I will post them.
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364260 - 02/02/10 07:20 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here is the same music in even worse reverse well with bad unisons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weJWa4xWzC4&feature=related
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364261 - 02/02/10 07:22 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Amazing but all you have to do is look down the list and there it is! Again the same music, better unisons but even more reverse, reverse well!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvrGWHij10&feature=related
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364267 - 02/02/10 07:29 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here's how a lot of people learn to play on the way pianos are tuned for them. Just hammer it out! Is this music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfUXn3UKPZY&feature=related
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364269 - 02/02/10 07:31 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21916
Loc: Oakland
How can you distinguish whether those are in "reverse well" as opposed to, say, having artifacts from the recording or playback process?
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#1364277 - 02/02/10 07:42 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
OK, now that you don't ever want to hear the Pachelbel Canon again in your whole life, here is another example of how people in North America have learned to accept reverse well as "beauty":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=occ17uDt4xM&feature=related
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364282 - 02/02/10 07:55 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
How can you distinguish whether those are in "reverse well" as opposed to, say, having artifacts from the recording or playback process?


Well, good question BDB. I listen for how strident the intervals are. There are other examples of the Pachelbel Canon that aren't as bad. The ones played on electronic keyboards in ET sound so much less strident.

The example Rafael put up was very deliberately done. A reverse Vallotti-Young. Most of what I witness is not so deliberate and organized but the harmony is still backwards. C Major is always the worst sounding key. That is what does it for me. When I hear that, it is reverse well.

In a lot of these videos, you do hear other faults like bad unisons and screaming octaves but at the core of each of the ones that I find tonight, I will hear that C Major is the most strident sounding key. I know I can find it as long as I care to search for it.

By the way, I first started looking for a George Winston Christmas concert that I know was recorded in Madison, WI in reverse well but none of the You Tube videos had it. The search did, however lead to what I know is out there. I am bound to find more. If I find somebody playing among the black keys in unusually mild harmony, I will post that too.
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364297 - 02/02/10 08:22 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here is an example, I think anyway, of Debussy being played in reverse well. It is mostly among the black keys and you can hear some contrasts in the modulations. The harmony seems unusually mild but it is clouded by bad unisons. However, you do see that the pianist enjoys it anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lypur?blend=8&ob=4&rclk=cti#p/a/2AE947BB96238628/1/SbaLOJv888A
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Bill Bremmer RPT
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#1364308 - 02/02/10 08:35 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here is a young pianist who clearly enjoys playing in reverse well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQzRAaXxjek

The key contrasts are all there. A-flat sounds the best, G and C Major the most strident. It is painful to listen to, yes but I also clearly heard D-flat sound more harmonious than D.

Can anyone hear how with the backwards harmony, all keys just seem to be indistinguishable even though there is contrast? That is how people have learned to accept reverse well as being ET. Nothing sounds right. It is all just cacophony from an obviously talented young pianist. How I would love to hear this same music played in the EBVT III!
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#1364320 - 02/02/10 09:00 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here is an example of a very mildly contrasting well temperament instead of reverse well. The upper octaves are bad and the unisons throughout are not good but you can clearly hear the contrast in the keys and it is correct for well temperament. In spite of the poor octaves and unisons, I can actually listen to this piano without experiencing a sense of revulsion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8gUNGi3530&feature=related

Note that I have found good sounding pianos on YouTube which were apparently well-tuned in ET but I have not posted them. I have only posted what I heard was not ET so far and there is plenty of that. It was surprising to find this one example of a true mild well temperament.
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www.billbremmer.com

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#1364328 - 02/02/10 09:11 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Back to reverse well: Here the young pianist plays in the key of C Major and it sounds worse than the dominant G Major and subdominant F Major. Notice as he ends in the home key of C Major how strident it sounds. The contrasts are mild yes but each sounds harsher than they should in ET. You can hear that regardless of the bad unisons and octaves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv6Brwm230E&feature=related
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364333 - 02/02/10 09:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here, for my final offering, (I really have heard quite enough!) is Mozart played in reverse well. It is the same young artist as the last. He must have had the piano tuned since last time because it does sound better. However, key contrast can still be heard and it is backwards.

I hope this all proves my point but if it doesn't, I surely can find some more examples of how America is tuned in reverse well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rZX4z-sCGA&NR=1&feature=fvwp
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364507 - 02/03/10 02:01 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Germany
Bill,

i am finding that the examples you have posted are pianos of amateurs gone regularly out of tune, doing hobby home recordings. I doubt that they are a result of an intended or unintended reverse well tuning process.

Bernhard Stopper




Edited by Bernhard Stopper (02/03/10 02:16 AM)
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#1364568 - 02/03/10 04:17 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Bill you should be ashamed to make us loose our time.

Do you consider those recordings as samples of the way pianos are tuner in your country ?

I am well persuaded that there are videos of tuned pianos availeable (dont tell me you did not hear the same as Bernhard)

most often I have find videos of freshed tuning pianos which had the treble way too flat, the basses too low and lack of global resonance.
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#1364663 - 02/03/10 09:38 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Kamin & Bernhard, yes the pianos are out of tune in other ways besides being reverse well but each one I selected exhibits reverse well as the foundation except the one that I found which actually is well tempered. The third one I listed has good unisons but is clearly reverse well.

So, I am told by virtually everyone that they never heard of such a thing as reverse well. Rafael tunes a piano deliberately in reverse well and Mark from South Africa says he never heard anything like that. Indeed, reverse well is usually not so clearly defined. After all, it is done by mistake, not by design. Yes, there are such amateur and professional videos of people playing the piano where the piano sounds good or reasonably good. But what would be the point of showing that? I am told that reverse well does not exist. All I had to do was look at a few videos to find it. THERE IT IS! One after the other! And the response I get is still that reverse well cannot exist either intentionally or unintentionally.

So, my answer to you, Kamin is yes, this is the way pianos are often tuned in this country and elsewhere. You saw it, you heard it. Quite obviously, whoever tuned the temperament in reverse well never heard of reverse well but believed what they were doing is ET. Quite obviously, the people who played these pianos also never heard of reverse well and believed what they were playing to be ET. If what I showed you was not yet enough evidence of that, I can surely find more of it. It was quite painful and irritating for me to listen to as I am sure that it was for you.

If you still have any doubts, go back to the third example which has good unisons and octaves. Listen to how wide and strident the intervals are. It is NOT ET! But this is the way the piano was tuned and the person playing it has accepted the tuning as normal. He wished for the whole world to hear him play what he believes to be the beautiful music that he plays. Don't even try to tell me that you do not hear what I hear. It is reverse well and it is not that much different from the reverse well that Rafael posted.
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#1364747 - 02/03/10 11:50 AM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4231
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT


So, my answer to you, Kamin is yes, this is the way pianos are often tuned in this country and elsewhere. You saw it, you heard it. Quite obviously, whoever tuned the temperament in reverse well never heard of reverse well but believed what they were doing is ET. Quite obviously, the people who played these pianos also never heard of reverse well and believed what they were playing to be ET. If what I showed you was not yet enough evidence of that, I can surely find more of it. It was quite painful and irritating for me to listen to as I am sure that it was for you.


If you are referring to the videos you have posted earlier you have offered no substantive proof to back up your claims, with the exception of your own opinion.
You offer no proof that this is the way all pianos are tuned in North America.
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#1364771 - 02/03/10 12:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 588
Loc: Atlanta, GA
What would help me in understanding all of this is a good recording of scales, played slowly, first in a good ET, and then in a reverse well, on similar pianos with the same mic'ing. I do hear the harshness of the pianos in the videos, but trying to listen for the specific problems with the intervals is difficult, given the constant change of notes, the bad audio, and the problems with the unisons.

I do understand that a reverse well is accidental, and thus there will be no perfect reverse well, and that its variations will be almost infinite. But a slow scale in a few keys in both temperaments would be valuable--a methodical comparison. Ideally, it would be good to hear the same scales for an EBVT tuning, too.

If anyone could record these slow scales, we would have a valuable resource for comparison and discussion.

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#1364875 - 02/03/10 02:18 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Jake Jackson]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1105
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Jake Jackson
What would help me in understanding all of this is a good recording of scales, played slowly, first in a good ET, and then in a reverse well, on similar pianos with the same mic'ing. I do hear the harshness of the pianos in the videos, but trying to listen for the specific problems with the intervals is difficult, given the constant change of notes, the bad audio, and the problems with the unisons.

I do understand that a reverse well is accidental, and thus there will be no perfect reverse well, and that its variations will be almost infinite. But a slow scale in a few keys in both temperaments would be valuable--a methodical comparison. Ideally, it would be good to hear the same scales for an EBVT tuning, too.

If anyone could record these slow scales, we would have a valuable resource for comparison and discussion.


I've been following links from the RollingBall Site and came across this...

http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/js/acc.htm

Someone was kind enough to write a Java applet which might be of some use.



Edited by daniokeeper (02/03/10 06:35 PM)
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#1364923 - 02/03/10 03:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks a lot for posting that Joe. I had just a little time to play with it. I will see if it is possible to insert the EBVT III figures into it.

Jake, simply listening to scales probably wouldn't tell you much of anything, no even the difference between 1/4 comma meantone on one end of the spectrum and ET on the other. The difference lies in the harmony.

I will create a new post tonight about what reverse well is as I had promised to do before. Actually, the question was asked and answered long ago, so I can simply post a link to that.

I will also look for some examples of good piano tuning and put them with the bad, so that what I am getting at can be more easily perceived.

You would obviously know that a piano with bad unisons and octaves would sound bad. Every piano goes out of tune eventually and what we notice first is that unisons go bad, then octaves. Some people actually like slightly imperfect unisons. There is always debate about how much to stretch the octaves. If there is not enough stretch, the piano sounds "flat" to some people but if you stretch the octaves too much, the piano sounds strained or "cold", lacking warmth.

On the issue of temperament, what I have always encountered is this unwavering belief in ET and the belief that everyone tunes ET. Virtually anything else would be unacceptable. Yet, there is no provision for, no pondering whatsoever of what the effects may be if the temperament is not executed as intended, only the belief that if the temperament is purposefully unequal, it cannot work. So, if that is true, then a temperament that is unintentionally not equal, it also could not work. Fair enough?

Well, I have long noticed that many technicians do not really tune ET, even though that is what they believe they are doing and I have said why it happens and why they don't realize what is wrong and I will lay that all out again tonight. What I have also seen, however, is that just as people play on out of tune pianos and still enjoy them, people play on pianos with erroneously constructed temperaments and enjoy them too.

The fact that you have heard the harshness means that you already understand why reverse well sounds bad. It is bad. It is out of tune. An out of tune piano can have bad unisons, bad octaves and a bad temperament. I will try to find other examples like the third one I found where the unisons and octaves are good but the temperament is reverse well.

I have a lot of experience looking specifically for the reverse well error, so I do often find it. Not every time, of course. If someone tunes with an ETD, it would not likely happen. If they tune by ear and they really know how to construct an ET, it is not there then either but I do find it more often than most people would ever imagine possible.

Some of the videos I posted have the piano quite badly out of tune (at least from our perspective as piano technicians). None of us would care to listen to music played on them. But what I could clearly hear in the ones I selected was not only bad unisons and octaves but also reverse well temperament. Now, if anyone thinks it is possible for a temperament originally constructed in ET to somehow decay and morph into reverse well, that would explain why I often find pianos in reverse well but I do not think that is possible. There is one piano that has bad unisons but the temperament is actually truly well tempered.

For the piano to exhibit the reverse well characteristics, the temperament had to be reverse well from the outset. For so many pianos to have that characteristic, there has to be a reason for it. Why would so many tuners make the same kind of error and not know about it? I believe I have long known the answer to that question and I have explained it many times. Owen Jorgensen's book, Tuning also documents how and why it happened early in the 19th Century. The reasons it happens today are different. I know what they are but unfortunately, there are some people who take great offense to the explanation.

That is unfortunate because no offense to any particular individual was ever intended. I have only sought to identify a problem and provide a solution for it. Some have said quite explicitly that I was and am in the wrong for doing that but I am not concerned at all about what they may think and I will continue to teach novice and experienced technicians how to avoid the reverse well error regardless of whether they want to learn to tune any non-equal temperament or not.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1364927 - 02/03/10 03:23 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21916
Loc: Oakland
Quote:
Every piano goes out of tune eventually and what we notice first is that unisons go bad, then octaves.

That depends. Octaves go out of tune from changes in humidity affecting the soundboard, and that can happen before the unisons go.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1365014 - 02/03/10 05:19 PM Re: Does a "Let the piano tell you" ET 5ths/4ths sequence ex [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
Quote:
Every piano goes out of tune eventually and what we notice first is that unisons go bad, then octaves.

That depends. Octaves go out of tune from changes in humidity affecting the soundboard, and that can happen before the unisons go.


Thanks BDB, I would not argue with that. I wonder how you think an ET would deteriorate? If the low tenor goes flat, would that not just stretch all the intervals out? Conversely, if the low tenor goes sharp, would that not compress all of the intervals? Is there any reason to think that the M3s would become uneven as they are in a WT or RW? If not, does that not mean that even in the instance of a somewhat deteriorated tuning, if the M3s are uneven, that they must have been uneven in the first place? (Just hypothetically speaking).

I suspect that at this point, you may still be unconvinced that I can find more clear examples of RW. But if it was as easy to find them as I discovered last night, it won't be difficult to find them at all. I do want to try to avoid pianos that are just plain out of tune if I can. I want people to hear that there are people playing pianos in RW and that it is fairly common.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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