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When I started tuning pianos I always tuned ET.

I used to have a digital piano that offered different temperaments and I have tried all available but I didn't like any of them.

It offered Pitagorean tuning, 1/4 comma meantone, Kirnberger, Werkmeister, Young and other meantone and well temperaments that sounded fine for simple keys but from horrible to bad tasting in the remote keys.

So for some time I keep the impression that it was old stuff not usefull today, until I read the Lehman article about Bach's temperament which had intrigued me. And I tuned my piano to his temperament to play some Bach pieces I know. I loved it.

So I began to try some other temperaments, designed in our days by some of the more reputed contemporary tuners (Jim Coleman). Finaly I discovered the Moore temperament which is a very mild well but still very expressive and I began to tune it in my client's pianos with a lot of success.

I have also bought the book "Tuning" by Owen Jorgensen and I read it regularly to discover how temperaments have evolved through Centuries. And I tune some of the sequences of that book in my practice piano. I have learned to divide the comma, to tune meantone temperaments and other interesting stuff.

Later I found the EBVT III and I switched from Moore.

Now I tune only EBVT III for my clients and I have learned to do it aurally, aiming to get the pipe organ effect.

Yes, if you search you can always find better out there!

What will you say to a customer that says, "Interesting...now can you put it back to give it a piano effect since thats what I am paying you to do"?

Before tuning EBVT III for the first time, I offer to my client to retune the piano to ET for free if he/she doesn't like it.

I have never had to retune one single piano!

Maybe I am just lucky, maybe EBVT III is good enough, who knows?

Peter started this thread writing:

..."Can someone please tell me why folks are so interested in historical tunings when many out there can't set an equal temperament worth it's name, set a pin, stretch an octave and basically tune a piano that will stay tuned.

Is it the 'next big thing' to distract us away from getting excellent at the basic task in hand...?

I can understand the mystique and the 'Oh goodness me, so you tune historical tunings, you must be SO good' aspects of this....but lets get real here...

There is no doubt that historical tunings play a valuable role in understanding why things were written the way they were and to many ears give a more pleasant rendering of a given piece....but come on you beginners out there...and you 'improvers'....learn to tune solidly first...do that for a long time...internalize the process...then starts to mess with the esoteric stuff."...

Yesterday Gadzar wrote:

..."What Bill said about

"the theories people who have no experience using and enjoying non equal temperaments are boundless"

applies to all of the posters here who claim to always tune ET.

How can they have a serious solid theory about something they never have done?"...

My quiete understanding:

Today Gadzar seems to confirm, though I can not understand how he can be so sure, what Bill says: many tuners tune different from ET...

This is also Peter's point, when he writes: "...why folks are so interested in historical tunings when many out there can't set an equal temperament worth it's name, set a pin, stretch an octave..."...

So, on one point you agree: Not many tuners know how to tune ET.

Then, it seems that Bill, Gadzar and the UT block does know how to tune ET, but they prefere EBVT. So they conclude: there is no point in learning or tuning ET. We were able to tune ET, but EBVT sounds better.

I think Peter's point was not whether ET sounds better or worse than EBVT or UTs.

Peter wrote:...come on you beginners out there...and you 'improvers'....learn to tune solidly first...do that for a long time...internalize the process...then starts to mess with the esoteric stuff."...

And if you were to notice a language problem on my part, please tell me. Otherwise, can we get Peter's point correctly?

My personal points of view:

Through the all process of learning ET tuning, a tuner (myself included) is going "willy-nilly" through various kinds of Unequal tunings.

Only when a tuner can tune ET on 88 keys, he/she is proving to have gained beats and pins control. Then he/she could choose whatever personal-bumpy tuning and even sell it and charge double normal.

Saying: I new, I was able to tune ET but I prefere UT, is no evidence because it is not proveable.

Saying: I new, I was able to tune ET but I prefere UT, is not an argument, is not enough for wanting to push tuners away from ET tuning. Actually, every tuner should be able to master ET, so to be able - if anything - to evaluate and choose on the basis of his/her own conscious preference, and "personal preferences" is what the UT block is talking about, when departing from world-wide spread ET, is not it?

My moanings:

Too many Topics turn into EBVT featuring, with consequent debasement of any other issue, what makes impossible talking more in depth. As for Stopper, I suggest to start an EBVT dedicated Topic, there is no need to turn some personal directioning into spam.

Also, I get the feeling that, when a point is made - like the "bumpy tunings and personal preferences" Vs "geometric proportions in nature" - the point is either ignored or assumed as the nth war reason. Stop war. No crusade.

a.c.

Actually, every tuner should be able to master ET, so to be able - if anything - to evaluate and choose on the basis of his/her own conscious preference, and "personal preferences" is what the UT block is talking about, when departing from world-wide spread ET, is not it?

And I add: the preference for any kind of tuning, ET or whatever non equal T., should be matured in complete consciousness.

Today, after more than 2000 years of compulsory non equal tunings, any tuner can (and should) learn also a smooth progressive ET tuning, so being able to face any professional request, be it the most modern ET evolution (including pure fifths ET or pure 12ths ET) or the latest interpretation of "in tune imperfection", harmoniousness, colour, energy, power and whatever else. This is my personal idea of correct schooling, fear and honest teaching and broad learning.

A pro tech, today, must be able to tune ET first, he/she must be conscious that he/she can actually tune ET, so that he/she can answer 99.999 % requests, without cheating, but actually enjoying the nth chance they get to fully satisfy their customers.

And I would never dear to ask the pianist how would he/she like a "personally preferred" Victorian tuning before the concert...it would be panic for sure.

In my opinion, EBVT, other non equal T., call it UT, Historical, Irregular or what, can represent the tuner's found of knowledge and expertise, better to be familiar, the more the better. ET is today's must, the temperament world widely expected, and it is better to acknowledge this, the sooner the better.

a.c.
.

Thank you, Rafael. Emmery enjoyed telling you once again that you are tuning the piano wrong. The customer will go to the piano and play chromatic M3s and declare, "Ay Carrumba! These thirds are all uneven!" Then, he/she will perform octave tests and say, "These octaves are all of different sizes!" "I did not ask for my piano to be turned into a pipe organ, I want perfect ET and pure octaves!" Then he/she will start playing music and declare, "This piece sounds DULL!" "Now, this piece sounds HORRIBLY out of tune!". "I want every chord to sound the same!" "I want complete freedom of modulation!". "I am going to SUE you!". "If I find out you belong to PTG, I am going to call the home office and have you KICKED OUT!"

Yes, Emmery KNOWS about those unequal temperaments. From time to time, he has sat down, put muting strips in his piano, opened a book and followed the instructions for tuning the Dorkmeister IX, X and XI. He played the topsy-turvy intervals. He heard the wolves howling. He tried to play some music but it the horrible sounds absolutely made his SKIN CRAWL! So, he promptly tuned his piano BACK! BACK! BACK! to ET!, wiped his brow, shook his head and wondered how ANYBODY could ever think they could get away with passing off a sloppy temperament like any one of the thousands there are in those old books as a piano tuning. "There ought to be a LAW!" Nobody but nobody around where HE lives EVER asked for their piano to be tuned like THAT! When people pay good money to have their piano tuned, they expect STANDARD TUNING! (You know, like when they order coffee, they expect coffee, not Mocha Java Chocolata Ya Ya).

The EBVT III was developed by listening and research. The unique combination of equal beating intervals and a mild progression and alignment with the cycle of 5ths combined with equal beating octaves and 5ths give the piano a voice that is inherently more pleasing and musically satisfying to virtually every one of my customers. Rafael is not the only other technician who has discovered likewise.

Alfredo has said that he views the piano tuned in ET like a sphere. Fair enough. The cycle of 5ths could also be seen as such, after all, it is a circle. If you want to look at a map of the world in its true perspective, you look at a globe. To me, ET is like the flat projection of what should be a sphere onto a flat surface. It gives everything a distorted perspective but in one sense, it seems more logical. A cycle of 5ths based temperament gives back to music what ET takes away.

No negative, ill-informed, inexperienced comments here or from any technicians anywhere ever dissuaded or influenced me in any way and they are not likely to do that now or in the future. Tear your hair out, bang your head against the wall about it if you will but I really don't care what you think about the way I tune the piano unless you agree with me. I don't care what your idea of how to tune a piano is. I have my own and I am sticking with it, period.

This is the type of statement that sets this place on edge. I and many others do not understand why you have to have a new enemy every week in this place.
Character assassination is not necessary to get your point across here.
Why does there always have to be a new bogeyman for you?

This is just fine with everyone here and we all understand your position. We have heard your position on this multiple times.
You do it your way. The trouble is all of this chatter from you makes it appear that you do not want to let us do it our way.

Let me add my personal view of (any) ET, that they are all cycle of fifths based, Bill. And they give something, what UTs take away. How we are weighting this or that, is a matter personal taste. Some like singers or string players vibrating and find this to be a magic tone, some detest it (like Mozart has for example) and it reminds them on old women funeral choir.

Oh, now I get it, Dan, the rules and proper etiquette state that it just fine to mock and ridicule anyone who uses a non-ET as in, "What will you say to a customer that says, "Interesting...now can you put it back to give it a piano effect since thats what I am paying you to do"?". It's OK to call such a person fool, an idiot or whatever you want. But what is not OK is for me to return the favor. Now I get it.

We've also heard Emmery's position on this several times. But yes, that is OK for him to say what he believes while mocking and ridiculing Rafael because you agree with Emmery. He can say it anyway he wants as many times as he wants. But what is not OK is to point out that the hysteria here is coming from the ET only crowd. that is against the rules. Now, I get it.

I did no such thing, I ASKED him what he would say if a customer wanted their piano to sound like a piano...not an organ. He answered me with a reasonable answer. I get calls from people to tune a piano...not to make them sound like some other instrument. What this has to do with PTG or god knows what you want to make out of it has me stumped.

Start looking at the words you are reading Bill and stop your imagination from inserting your own stories between the lines. I have never called the PTG for anything nor would I expect them to do anything about it if I did. Neither have I complained like a baby to the forum bouncers about anyones behavior here.

A therapist can help some people...on the other hand some people need a team.

Bill, I said: comparing non equal temperaments to ET (I should say my ET version, since it seems that there is more than one) is like comparing a potato to a sphere.

But if I had to give out an immage, I would compare ET to a horn, as smooth as a horn, as proportioned and spiraliform as a horn, as resonant and musical as a horn. Alternatively, to a shell.

http://www.furious.com/perfect/shells.html

You know, 5ths do not go in circles, but in spirales (check in web, Dave Benson's (Lecturer): Music, A Mathematical Offer) and yes, ET is logics and maths too, one of the sons of Renaissance, look at nature and learn, and the ouverture of early modern period. Also, Logics, maths (proportions) and music are in a very close relationship, you surely know.

Then Stopper is quite right there: 5th (in cycle) is the interval that gains all 12 semitones, and amongst the few other intervals that can do that, it is the most powerful, being the 3rd partial. Any gimmick with a 5th (this counts for all intervals) will unhinge the whole sound system. In my words, when we leave out precise beats proportions, we loose the synergistics of the whole set.

Then, the point is not what temperament you Bill Bremmer are allowed to tune.

The point is: what temperament should pro tuners be able to tune. My answer is: ET first (possibly agreeing on what ET is); well known and spread out HT second (you never know, you may get a specific request); any other non equal temperament model, as easy, original, musical, harmonious, powerful, energetic, non-clinical, non-sterile, perfect-imperfect as much as one can feel it, only last.

Best regards, a.c.

Emmery's question was a legitimate question and was asked and answered by the fellow he posed the question to.

By reading part of this posting I have quoted, who is doing the mocking and ridiculing?

It seems to be virtually impossible to have any sort of reasonable debate about any issue at all with you Bill.

Complete and total nonsense.

In fact I didn't appreciate Emery's question. It is not a legitimate question about what I do if a customer doesn't like EBVT III, which is the question I've answered.

Emery's question goes far beyond that but I prefer not to make an issue of it and to rest calm.

I know how to tune ET and some UT aurally. And with my ETD I can tune almost 200 different temperaments.

So I can tune every piano I service, no matter what clients ask me to tune.

I am not touched by biased questions as Emery's. I am confident of my skills and I don't need to prove anything here in this forum.

I believe that here there are some that feel unsure of what they do and they pretend to reassure themselfs by locking to what they think is universally accepted (ET).

That explains why some tuners here do not tune anything but ET. And I am sure there are numerous tuners here that even don't know how to tune a temperament other than ET. I am sure they not even know what Meantone is not to say they don't know how to tune it.

And to their knowledge: it (meantone) is the most used system in the history of music.

But, if you read the first post of this thread, Peter's oppinion is against waisting our time learning to tune these old systems and we better invest our time into practice solid hammer technique and tuning stability.

For me it is crucial to learn those unequal temperaments if one aspires to become a better tuner.

What kind of tuner are you if you don´t know what a Pitagorean comma is, or a Diatonic Comma, or what 1/7 comma meantone means, and how it is tuned or what well irregular temperament means?

Emery, what are you going to answer if a client ask you such questions?

Maybe: "You see, I only tune ET, I know nothing about commas and unequal intervals, only smooth progressions of beats..."

Dan and Emmery,

Both of you know that Emmery's post was intended to mock and ridicule. Both of your rebuttals to my response was more of the same. If you want to get into a mock and ridicule contest over the use of non-equal temperaments in genernal practice, I can mock and ridicule far better than either of you because I happen to know what I'm talking about in that regard and neither of you do.

Neither of you know what we even mean by the "pipe organ effect". It is only another example of people who are completely ignorant condemning something in which they have no knowledge or experience, only the fear that one day, they will be asked to do it. Ignorance is Strength.

The hysterical scenario I wrote is only a composite of some of the ridiculous comments I have heard for the last 20 years but all of which have recently surfaced here. One thing I have noticed is the ET only, anti PTG crowd on here keeps coming up with them consistently. When you stop making those comments, I will stop showing how ridiculous they really are.

Whatever you say, you won't influence what I or any other non-ET tuner does in the least. You won't get me banned from writing about non-ET's on this forum either. Pick other subjects to write about and leave those of which you have no knowledge or experience to those who do and have interest in them. You are fighting a battle you already lost long ago.

Gazar, I spent much time learning about all the above mentioned terms, I even spent time tuning UT and historical temperaments on my own and my ETD has a bunch of them loaded in also. I can speak to any client intelligently about them if asked...however....IN 25 YEARS OF TUNING I HAVE NEVER BEEN ASKED.
I am not arguing with you over your quest to be a more rounded technician in these respects...do you spend as much time learning about the human ear, acoustics, piano history, wood refinishing or anything else on the fringes of our every day tuning work?

I didn't mean to offend you with my question but I don't know why you would be miffed by it Gazar? If you want to be the best historic temperament tuner out there knock yourself out...I would even have some respect for you for doing so. I just wouldn't pay you a dime to tune my piano in a way that I wouldn't like, and I wouldn't like an EBVT lll tuning for the style and type of music I play. I play in all keys and my ear is sensitive to iregularities that fall outside the norm that 99% of us are used to.

I realize that what we prefer in regards to temperaments can be a matter of taste but the guy who pays the piper calls the tune. Even if your tunings were SPECTACULAR compared to every one elses, there is an old business saying..."Only a fool sells gold when everyone is lining up for silver".

B.B "..One thing I have noticed is the ET only, anti PTG crowd on here keeps coming up with them consistently..."

Wow...so which is it...does E.T. cause us to be Anti PTG, or do you think that if someones anti-PTG they mysteriously become ET only. We certainly couldn't have a brain or sense of taste, or freedom to belong where we want...that would be well...human I guess.

Emery,

In these 25 years, have you ever been explicitly asked to tune ET?

I have never been asked to tune ET. I am always asked to tune the piano, period. Neither I've ever been asked to tune any other kind of temperament.

In the first meeting with a client it is me who suggests to tune EBVT III.

To answer your question Gazar, no I have not been explicitly asked to tune ET. Then again, when I take my one car in to the garage to have the white wall tires put on it I don't explicitly tell them to have them facing outwards, but somehow they always end up that way and we are all happy.