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#1772245 - 10/17/11 02:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scott, I haven't read it completely but just note that I'm not playing Cm7 on the 1st chord. I'm play C maj/min. So I am playing a B natural. That's also the chord I'm playing on the LH.

you mean you play a C-6?
Scott's talking about the C7 in the major 2-5

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#1772253 - 10/17/11 02:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Scott,
I agree with Chris on the volume of the piano.
Anyway you can record this on an acoustic? Would sound better for a demo.
Or plug your keyboard in the mixer directly and mix afterwards. It's a pretty cheap option. Maybe you can borrow a zoom 4 some somebody? That thing is killer for demos. With 4 mics, you can get something really decent very cheap.

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#1772254 - 10/17/11 02:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Knotty - No, I'm not playing C-6. I'm actually playing Cmaj/min. B natural is in the melody. I'm talking about the 1st chord.

EDIT -- oh you mean the wrong note? I haven't looked/listened yet but I just want to be clear on what chord I'm playing on the 1st chord (may not have anything to do with anything...).


Edited by jazzwee (10/17/11 02:23 PM)
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#1772272 - 10/17/11 02:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
That note you're referring to near the beginning is an actual slip...I don't count that since it wasn't intentional.
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#1772273 - 10/17/11 02:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Cmaj/min.
I'm not familiar with this.
I know the other way around
Cmin/Maj7 which is equivalent to Cm6 and would be
C Eb G A or C Eb G B

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#1772277 - 10/17/11 03:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
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Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Thanks everyone for your input about the mix on the demo cuts. I agree that it's not sounding too good. I'm really only marginally concerned about that, but I guess it would be a good idea to talk with the others in the trio and see if we can try to get some better equipment from somewhere.

Jazzwee, the Cm7 or C-Maj7 in the first bar doesn't affect anything I was suggesting. In that case, you can play lines suggesting both harmonies anyway. And with regards to the unintentional slip, I think my point is that you want to try to avoid those things by really studying how you put together lines, instead of trying to always create them on the spot. Doing things like writing out lines over changes to practice, or transcribing others, leads to clearer thinking and control and prevents those kinds of slip ups.

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#1772287 - 10/17/11 03:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
>> Cmaj/min.
I'm not familiar with this.
I know the other way around
Cmin/Maj7 which is equivalent to Cm6 and would be
C Eb G A or C Eb G B




LOL. Yeah the other way around. I was looking for C-(triangle)7.

Anyway, to me Cm6 is not the same as Cmin/maj7.

Cm6 is tonicized -- sure. But the Min/Maj has a specific augmented triad that has a unique sound. Now Cm6, I'm sure can be subbed here but since the melody calls specifically for min/maj, that's what I use.
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#1772296 - 10/17/11 03:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta

Jazzwee, the Cm7 or C-Maj7 in the first bar doesn't affect anything I was suggesting. In that case, you can play lines suggesting both harmonies anyway. And with regards to the unintentional slip, I think my point is that you want to try to avoid those things by really studying how you put together lines, instead of trying to always create them on the spot. Doing things like writing out lines over changes to practice, or transcribing others, leads to clearer thinking and control and prevents those kinds of slip ups.


I hear you. I'm from a different school though. I never work out lines in advance and I know you do because I can tell from your playing that everything is thought out.

Instead I try to have my ear react to the moment. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The slip here though is just technical and not related to the ear. I wasn't going to bother re-recording it since I thought it was clearly unintended (especially on a downbeat).

I believe I mentioned this earlier. The approach that I've been using lately is to listen to the prior line and then do some sort of call and response to it and recall part of the motif.

Surprisingly, I did it a lot on Solar though I wasn't consciously planning it. So perhaps the practice is working.

I think it is a good idea to sit down and work out melodic concepts in advance on every tune. But that's a lot of work. I've done it on some like Stella (maybe that's why it comes easier on that tune).

In the meantime, I feel like my immediate problem areas are more rhythmically related. To me, it exposes my amatuerish sound more than the notes.

I really am so gratified that you spent so much time analyzing what I played. I saw some other wrong notes in there that sounded like a rhythmic displacement (unintentional) -- like I was behind the bar line. I'm going to look at it some more. THANK YOU SCOTT!

BTW - I'm envious of how quickly you guys can transcribe and notate. That would have taken me a LONG time.
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#1772375 - 10/17/11 05:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
. . . . .Now Cm6, I'm sure can be subbed here but since the melody calls specifically for min/maj, that's what I use.

I've come to prefer - and use - a Cm6/9 in the LH, but play the maj7 in the RH.
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#1772379 - 10/17/11 05:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
BTW - I'm envious of how quickly you guys can transcribe and notate. That would have taken me a LONG time.
Allow me to mention a new piece of software, developed here in Sweden called Score Cleaner, it's intention is to be THE transcribing tool. For now it's midi in only, but I've been told that in the spring an audio in version will be available. That's right, play a piano through the mike and get it transcribed.
http://www.doremir.com/
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

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#1772385 - 10/17/11 05:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
. . . . .Now Cm6, I'm sure can be subbed here but since the melody calls specifically for min/maj, that's what I use.

I've come to prefer - and use - a Cm6/9 in the LH, but play the maj7 in the RH.


Yeah -- fuller voicing. But a 13 is a valid note in C min/maj so I would play that in the solo.

My point though is that Cm6 by itself (like Cm6 in Footprints or Mr PC) wouldn't suggest a maj7.

Lately though, if the tune stays on Cm7 for a long time, I'll probably cycle through Cmin/maj7, Cm6, Cm11 for some inner voice movement.
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#1772387 - 10/17/11 05:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I hear you. I'm from a different school though. I never work out lines in advance and I know you do because I can tell from your playing that everything is thought out.

Instead I try to have my ear react to the moment. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The slip here though is just technical and not related to the ear. I wasn't going to bother re-recording it since I thought it was clearly unintended (especially on a downbeat).


I would say that I'm in the same school, I'm just not good at it yet smile. I should clarify that the only time that I work out specifically what I'm going to play is during the heads of some tunes, which I do only because I have trouble with the melody. I always try to have my ear react to the moment when improvising. I think the challenge is developing enough ability to execute what you hear without ever missing. Of course, since I can't do that, I will rely on thinking about what works when what I hear isn't clear enough to play for sure. I would say that the ear and technic are the same thing if you are improvising. I've found that by practicing written lines and transcriptions I've gotten better at identifying and executing what I hear in the moment. I think that with continued work, it will get easier to accurately execute what is heard in the moment, and I think it should transfer to playing melodies too. It just takes alot more awareness and control when improvising around a melody I think.


Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I really am so gratified that you spent so much time analyzing what I played. I saw some other wrong notes in there that sounded like a rhythmic displacement (unintentional) -- like I was behind the bar line. I'm going to look at it some more. THANK YOU SCOTT!

BTW - I'm envious of how quickly you guys can transcribe and notate. That would have taken me a LONG time.


No problem, it took a little while... maybe 30 minutes or so, but I'm not doing much today, so better that than sitting around doing nothing! Hope it helps.

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#1772394 - 10/17/11 05:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
BTW Scott, I've looked at the other wrong notes and either I'm just slightly behind (which is a rhythmic problem) or it was not on the downbeat, in which case, it's not a wrong note in my mind.

So I'm not hearing a clear demarcation of the bar as I go faster. Something I wasn't aware of before. Clearly your analysis helps a lot thumb

I love this kind of deep analysis. It's easier to say "sounds good" and move on but it's when we do stuff like this that I find something specific to practice. I really appreciate it.
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#1772404 - 10/17/11 05:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta


I think the challenge is developing enough ability to execute what you hear without ever missing. Of course, since I can't do that, I will rely on thinking about what works when what I hear isn't clear enough to play for sure. I would say that the ear and technic are the same thing if you are improvising.


I would say that this kind of perfection is not to be found among the likes of most of us on this thread. IMHO, it may be found only at the world class levels. Most people subscribe to the rule that "there is no wrong note in jazz. But you and I are the same then in setting a higher goal. I don't want to sound too rigid either, when I play. So I only want to be conscious of this in practice, not in performance. Too many things to think about live...
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#1772642 - 10/18/11 03:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
How about a fun and atypical version of Autumn Leaves? From last night's jam session. Let's just say it's in honor of Roger Williams.

Autumn Leaves
http://www.box.net/shared/cao2b53lxb00mycj1me4
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#1772724 - 10/18/11 08:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
does the harmonica solo? I thought he sounded really good.

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#1772890 - 10/18/11 01:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
We had a good trumpet player last night. He didn't know the head well but then he figured it out. Young kid.

Footprints
http://www.box.net/shared/t0714xckp21ukkynip93



Originally Posted By: knotty
does the harmonica solo? I thought he sounded really good.


LOL - if you listened to the recording you will hear him solo.
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#1772920 - 10/18/11 01:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I only heard him play the head at the top and somewhere in the middle. Which I thought was played well.

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#1772934 - 10/18/11 02:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: knotty
I only heard him play the head... somewhere in the middle. Which I thought was played well.


I think that was his solo. cool

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#1772937 - 10/18/11 02:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
We had a good trumpet player last night. He didn't know the head well but then he figured it out. Young kid.

Footprints
http://www.box.net/shared/t0714xckp21ukkynip93




Sounds good! You should get him in on some gigs... it would be good for him.

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#1772948 - 10/18/11 02:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
I asked the trumpet kid to play with me on Saturday. I wasn't planning on taking more sit-ins after the last gig (where I had to erase the others from the recordings), but this kid sounded good. Must be like 21 years old.

I also asked the Autumn Leaves singer to join my band in future gigs. Listen to this (just the singer -- forget the instruments) There's a particular style to jazz singing that's not the same as regular singing. No vibrato and good at scatting.

Flash Bang Alakazam
http://www.box.net/shared/xv04nvbqqt6254jt8dqr

It's really fun meeting new talented people at these jams.
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#1772950 - 10/18/11 02:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Originally Posted By: knotty
I only heard him play the head... somewhere in the middle. Which I thought was played well.


I think that was his solo. cool



LOL - I wasn't even paying attention. I guess he stuck pretty close to the melody. That guy plays jazz piano too so he was double dipping at the jam (he got to play lots of times).
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#1772979 - 10/18/11 03:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
I just posted a version of Bouncing with Bud up on youtube if anyone wants to check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR5Y6KNY9zA

Extra points if someone gets the quote
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#1773042 - 10/18/11 05:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
too late.. someone else already got the quote. Nice playing beeboss!!

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#1773064 - 10/18/11 06:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Thanks Knotty
the quote was obviously too easy
I'll make it more difficult next time
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#1773072 - 10/18/11 06:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Where was it? I don't know that tune so it wasn't easy for me.

Really nice playing by the way... as usual!

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#1773097 - 10/18/11 06:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I just posted a version of Bouncing with Bud up on youtube if anyone wants to check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR5Y6KNY9zA

Extra points if someone gets the quote


Really nice Beeboss! That head is scary. Maybe one of the more difficult heads I've seen.

Didn't know the tune you were quoting, so no chance....
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#1773121 - 10/18/11 07:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Thanks guys

the quote was from Buds Bubble ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpKcJvRgLH4

also known as Crazeology ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdW8G68Bhco
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#1773338 - 10/19/11 04:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Wicked playing BB!

Crazeology is in RealBook 2
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#1774760 - 10/21/11 04:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Someone remind me -- I've got tickets to Keith Jarrett Trio next week (Wed). YAY!

Last time I had KJ tickets, I forgot about the concert until the following day...

I've been listening to those KJ albums suggested earlier. Great stuff.
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