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#1839599 - 02/06/12 03:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Something that I was explaining long ago (maybe a year ago) in this thread was that I analyzed snippets of the waveform to see where his eighths landed. And the interesting finding was the the eighths that correspond with the 'let' in trip-e-let landed EXACTLY at the right spot each time. The 1st eighth is dragged to give it that straight feel but it's the swing eighth that doesn't waver.


So where do actual triplets, as opposed to swung eighth notes, line up then? It seems that they'd have to be exact divisions of thirds to have the last third of the triplet line up with what you're saying, but I'm not sure this is true. Maybe the two don't mix?


All I know is I attempt to play triplets and uptempo 16ths as even as I can. But whether or not triplets are played exactly evenly divided is something I can't tell you.

What causes me confusion is triplet quarters. I recall some prior teacher tell me that you have some play with triplet quarters. But I've never tried varying it with some rubato thing.

But my question and research on this was limited to swing eighths.

Does varying triplets affect swing in a good way? That's really the only valid question here. If not, then personal expression could justify anything. If yes, then we better learn to do it the right way. I have to be honest that I have never asked this question of anyone.
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#1841014 - 02/09/12 01:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Talking about blues -- I'm planning on doing Stolen Moments at my gig next week. This tune was a new discovery to me. I love the head. It was called at a jam and the only thing I was told was: minor blues solo. Don't worry about the rest. smile
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#1841168 - 02/09/12 09:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
Stolen Moments is a favorate. We play it as a piano trio. Listen to the Oliver Nelson original (from one of the great albums of all time, The Blues and the Abstract Truth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I777BcgQL9o


And then check out the fabulous Ahmad Jamal version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HClD5wy7K5s

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#1841185 - 02/09/12 10:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
This tune gets called a lot. It's probably a good idea to learn the distinctive intro and voicings, such as those used by Ahmad Jamal here above.
It's great jam tune because it has a powerful melody over delicious chords, but an easy blues to solo over.

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#1841191 - 02/09/12 10:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jjo
And then check out the fabulous Ahmad Jamal version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HClD5wy7K5s


I think the album this is on, "The Awakening", is one of the best piano trio records of all time. If you haven't heard it, check it out. All the tunes are great, and nobody does space and intensity like Ahmad Jamal.

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#1841219 - 02/09/12 11:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Thanks for the new information here. I just listened to the two videos.

Knew nothing about the tune. I didn't even know Bill Evans was involved with the original.

I couldn't believe the space that Ahmad Jamal used. Amazing. That is something to learn from for sure. I would have been afraid to do that.
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#1841260 - 02/09/12 12:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Funny jamal is coming up, I've been listening to live at the pershing for the last 2 weeks.

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#1841276 - 02/09/12 01:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
This tune gets called a lot. It's probably a good idea to learn the distinctive intro and voicings, such as those used by Ahmad Jamal here above.
It's great jam tune because it has a powerful melody over delicious chords, but an easy blues to solo over.



You know what those voicings are? I'm just using 4th voicings on the RH and the intro left hand seems to be just 5-1.

Let me know if there's something specific I have to do. The horns are playing the actual head. (I've got a trumpet and sax).
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#1841304 - 02/09/12 02:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
sounds good

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#1841393 - 02/09/12 05:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
What changes do people use for minor blues? Here's approximately what I use for C- blues:
Cm7 Cm7 Cm7 C7alt
Fm7 Fm7 Cm7 Cm7
Ab7 G7alt Cm7 G7alt

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#1841401 - 02/09/12 05:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
When I think of minor blues, I just play Mr. PC smile

Or even Footprints.

But there's so much possibilities with chromatic chords (like in Stolen Moments), that it's actually a fun form.
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#1841451 - 02/09/12 06:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
When I think of minor blues, I just play Mr. PC smile

Or even Footprints.

But there's so much possibilities with chromatic chords (like in Stolen Moments), that it's actually a fun form.


What do you mean by chromatic chords? Did you mean diatonic?
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#1841471 - 02/09/12 06:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
From the B section:
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#1841477 - 02/09/12 06:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
If you listen to Herbie play Footprints, for example, you will see chromatic movement in the chords.

Cm7-C#m7-Cm7-Bm7 etc...

It just opens up possibilities.

Unfortunately, not enough time to do this on Mr. PC at 240bpm...
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#1841515 - 02/09/12 07:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
I was just playing stolen moments in a big band the other day and was noticing that it has a rather unexpected major 7th chord in it. If you listen closely you can hear it in the 2nd half of the 4th bar. genius

at 17 seconds in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I777BcgQL9o
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#1841567 - 02/09/12 11:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
From the B section:


You're such a Finale 'power user'. wink

Yes, I realize this section is chromatic, but I'm not sure I'd base my accompanying scales or solo on that movement. I think it provides much more harmonic interest to keep on the blues scale, choosing the notes that would fit the chromatic stuff underneath, rather than playing four different blues scales.

I've got to check out the Herbie version to see what JW is talking about.
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#1841581 - 02/09/12 11:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Highly disagree with you on that Scep.

Playing a blues scale is not the only way to around it. Nor is playing a predictable chromatic movement either. First of all this is minor blues and a tune like Footprints for example can be thought of either in a minor blues context or a modal context.

So I know you will be critical if I play a blues and start substituting chords around it. But it's something I learned and can actually be fun when the bass player starts listening to you and takes similar chromatic approaches. It's happened a lot to me now and it's opened up what I play. Sometimes it works even when unexpected.

This is why I like minor blues a lot. There's a lot more to learn on my end. But I'm just starting to break down the logic of 1-b3-b5-5-b7 on minor blues. I was playing it a moment ago and was mostly playing extensions. A big no-no to you I'm sure.
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#1841585 - 02/09/12 11:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
I just have to bring this back again because it's such an eye opener. I know he's talking about melody but the real thing that's interesting is what he's playing. If I didn't pay attention to the LH, I would not have any idea that he was playing F Blues.

man, this guy hears things I can't even begin to imagine. This is not your father's Blues Scale...(or 'Chevrolet' as the old commercial goes).

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#1841633 - 02/10/12 01:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


So I know you will be critical if I play a blues and start substituting chords around it.

Why would I?!? I'm only critical of things that don't sound like they make any musical sense.

Originally Posted By: jw

This is why I like minor blues a lot. There's a lot more to learn on my end. But I'm just starting to break down the logic of 1-b3-b5-5-b7 on minor blues. I was playing it a moment ago and was mostly playing extensions. A big no-no to you I'm sure.

Extensions of what exactly? Are you talking about extending a scale or the chord notes from the chromatic passage?
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#1841666 - 02/10/12 03:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
I think we look at music differently. I'm hearing things differently. I'm not able to express it yet but I predict that over the long haul, I will sound different. Though maybe with a clearer intent than today.

You once told me to transcribe myself and so I just examined briefly what I do, and a little revelation occurred. I understood why I was doing things differently. Though not consistently.

I think the idea of horizontal playing is starting to hit my ears but I wasn't completely ready. When I stop questionning myself my intent will be more clear. You may disagree with my musical message though. And that's fine.

But it was in playing minor blues that I felt that I did NOT want to play chord tones.
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#1841675 - 02/10/12 03:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
From the B section:

You're such a Finale 'power user'. wink
Actually this is not me doing my power-finale-thingie, but me doing my power-realbook_I-screenshot-thingie. The tune is in Realbook I. smile
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#1841770 - 02/10/12 09:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
How many here have attended the Aerbesold summer camp?
If attended, how was it?
If not, heard any story?
Anyone here going this year?

Other thoughts?
I need a vacation this summer, I'm between this and golf so far :-)

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#1841792 - 02/10/12 09:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
A friend of mine teaches a week there each year, he says it's great fun, good teachers, great vibes, a mixture of late teens to seniors - well organized.

I would love to go, a bit far to go for a week - maybe take the two weeks . . .
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#1841805 - 02/10/12 10:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Maybe take the opportunity to visit the area (basically, drink Bourbon). Or stop by NYC or something.

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#1842001 - 02/10/12 03:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Hey Knotty, I was comparing Aebersold Workshop to the Port Townsend Centrum one (over by Scep), and the Centrum one requires you to send audition tapes. I wonder if that filters out the crowd differently.

Also it was specifically noted on the Centrum one that piano slots are limited (they turn people away). I guess that makes sense. Only one piano per ensemble while there could be multiple horns, guitars.

These things look like fun vacation things. I wonder if serious players actually consider learning from these.
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#1842023 - 02/10/12 04:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I'm thinking there would be at least a few good players there. At least a good bass player and drummer.

It does sound like a fun vacation. It's 400 people each week. I don't know if they turn down people or no, but 800 is all is quite a good number.

Let me look at that centrum thing.

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#1842025 - 02/10/12 04:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I think the idea of horizontal playing is starting to hit my ears but I wasn't completely ready. When I stop questionning myself my intent will be more clear. You may disagree with my musical message though. And that's fine.

But it was in playing minor blues that I felt that I did NOT want to play chord tones.


I'm interested in what this sounds like. Post something so we can have a more concrete idea about what you're actually doing. From what I read it appears that you are playing the minor blues scale but avoiding any notes that might be chord tones, but I don't think this is what you actually mean.

In any case, Stolen Moments appears to be a modal tune, and not based on a blues scale... I mean just play the melody...it's not a like Work Song or Birks works, etc.
However, since someone (you?) said that you can just use the blues scale to play over the changes I just went with that and suggested that the chromatic changes that occur are not a directive to change the scale that you'd use on top.

But, to be clear, it's much, much, much easier to hear what you have in mind, rather than having you try to write about the process. Post something when you have a chance.
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1842028 - 02/10/12 04:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Hey Knotty, I was comparing Aebersold Workshop to the Port Townsend Centrum ....I wonder if serious players actually consider learning from these.


I recall some years back that there were some real heavy-weight players that go to these things, but I have no idea these days. Back in the day it was a great way to network and have a chance to play with stellar players that all seemed to congregate there.
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1842035 - 02/10/12 04:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I was just playing stolen moments in a big band the other day and was noticing that it has a rather unexpected major 7th chord in it. If you listen closely you can hear it in the 2nd half of the 4th bar. genius

at 17 seconds in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I777BcgQL9o


You know, I often wonder if mistakes sometimes just get left in and then become part of the song. Not saying that the maj doesn't sound good, but I really do wonder if genius was at play, or just some tired sax player was misreading his part and then Nelson going "hey! keep that in!"

I'm give them all a call and check. wink
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#1842069 - 02/10/12 05:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
For those that are interested, here's a nice discussion of the basic minor blues changes and many possible additions and substitutions: http://www.jazzguitar.be/minor_blues.html

The author does a nice job of showing the step my step process by which jazz takes something simple and makes it as complex as possible.

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