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Beeboss, such a lovely touch. I'm so envious...

Btw: there's lyrics to Very Early in the Bill Evans book. It's not a bad tune for vocalists.

Excellent Beebee, I bookmarked your Blackberry Winter for further listening.

Thanks Jazz+, glad you liked it

Beeboss: I'm an Alec Wilder fan, and Blackberry Winter is one of his best. Your rendition was excellent.

Thanks jjo

I had my teacher listen to some our gig tunes and he said my problem on the swing tunes was that the drummer was not setting the proper swing groove and it was affecting everyone.

He said the drummer should accent more 2/4 when we do swing tunes.

Thoughts?

I'm uncomfortable trying to explain to the drummer that his doing too much anticipation of the 8ths instead of just the standard ding-a-ding.

I'm not a drummer and the last time I made a comment like that to a drummer at the jam session, he just blew up and ignored me. I pay my current drummer so I suppose this is not the same as a jam session.

My view is that generally you get the best out of musicians when you don't tell them what to play. If you don't like his playing then get another drummer. But be careful as nobody likes being sacked.

I would follow Dave's advice and do a trio. Then you've removed all the other factors that make it easy not to swing.

Not to bring my own stories but a couple of weeks ago, we played a large hotel lobby. I was simply hired for this and did not pick the band. But worst, the organizer invited folks to play. Including, of all musicians out there, a theramin player! Wait, not one, 2 theramin players.
Humbly, they chose "not to play" because "they were not really jazz instruments". My a$$ they didn't play. The whole time they had their evil machines on low volume. The constant buzzing and confusing harmony made it impossible to get a groove. Add to that, the shape of that room was such that it was difficult for the drummer to hear me or the bass (no monitors). It was fun, and we have a really cool crowd, but honestly, we did not play good.

The point: All participants in a band affect the swing.

If bass+ drums can't practice by themselves, then the 3 of you should meet.
If it still doesn't work, move people around.
I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but over here, if you pay, you quickly get really really good musicians.
I mean you would be surprised how much one of McBride's drummers might cost... Perhaps your teacher can recommend a good combo.
For the same price as the all those guys, you might be able to afford his 2 guys ...

And then, guaranteed, you're gonna swing like heck.
Just think how good you sound when you play along to some Horace Silver or Wynton Kelly. It's all about that rhythm section.

>> If you don't like his playing then get another drummer. But be careful as nobody likes being sacked.
+1 on both statements. You can't afford the bad reputation. It's a lot of people out there, you don't have to play with those you don't like. I would not try to tell someone how to play their own instruments.

Or you could get one of these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tYQRpl9NbM

One of my favorite tunes that as been on my *to learn* list for the longest time. I've often played it behind vocalists but never really worked on it.

Really enjoyed it David ! You brought out some really nice inner voicings on the tune and as usual, you have that refined lyrical, singing touch which is so important for a tune like this. And then the vamp at the end was cool.

Bravo !!

LOL - we're keyboardists. We can play the drums and bass too without an external device. Haha!

Anyway, back to the more serious issue, I might just make a nice 'request' for a more regular cymbal ride pattern for longer periods. The drummer is a really nice guy and overall he plays really well. So I don't really want to fire him.

But some of you already made a comment about some of our swing tunes and there's a groove issue. It's not always a problem but seems to occur more at the mid tempos. Uptempo, there's less of a groove issue.

I thought the problem was with me (I always accept the blame first) but my teacher said that even he couldn't swing if the groove doesn't allow it.

Did any of you notice the groove issue in the rhythm section? It was more noticeable on this tune (ATTYA) where I couldn't really develop a good swing feel. The drummer was doing an anticipated 8th pattern right from the beginning.

ATTYA
http://www.box.net/shared/qgat0qmhkirsr9oeydnm

jazzwee, I have listened carefully to the ATTYA track, and it is difficult to hear what the drummer is doing, but it seems you are right about his playing. But since you say that he is a nice guy and usually plays reasonable well, it might be possible to give him some hints. I did some gigging with a bass player a long time ago, and he told me that I did not swing. I did not like that of course, and I had done some gigs with a trumpet player who was way ahead of both of us, and he was very happy about my ability to swing. So I told him that, and he answered: that was before you started doing all those complicated things. I thought it was very helpful, and did my best to correct that.
But I think your worst problem is the trumpet player. People who play like that should not do gigs at all.
So my advice would be to keep the drummer and see how things work out, and send the trumpet player back to some serious listening and woodshedding.

cubop, being a drummer, your comment is particularly important. I think it's subtle. He just has to maintain the jazz ride-pattern for a longer period instead of breaking it up so often with anticipation accents. Sometimes he does it right so it may be an unconscious thing.

Frankly, I didn't know what to listen for before. I just have difficulty swinging with some drummers and I don't know what's happening. It's not part of our jazz education. You just assume everyone knows their instruments.

A previous drummer at a jam was too heavy on 1 and 4 and too much of a bass drum pattern that was getting in the way of the groove. Everyone hated his playing. But very few had the guts to speak up. It was bad because he was the house drummer of the jam session. Finally, the jam organizer just put his foot down and replaced him. I think he got pretty mad but everyone else was happier.

I like this drummer though. He's reliable, listens well and works well with the bass player. So maybe just a little subtle "ideas" might work out.

p.s. -- about the trumpet player and guitar player, both of which are obviously at a lower level than the rest of the group, I'm giving newer musicians a chance to play. I would have appreciated that of someone if I were given that kind of chance. I do get some grumbling from the core group but as long as they don't destroy the group, I can handle a mediocre solo. The guitar player always plays out of time though so he's out. That's more than I can handle.

Thanks Dave, glad you liked it.
I am going to learn some more Wilder tunes I think. I know 'moon and sand' but what others are there?

Just thought you guys/gals would appreciate this (Monk's advice to Steve Lacy

Jazzwee: One suggestion would by to try to tune out the drummer and just listen to the bass player. I find I seem to play my best when we have some informal time with just bass and piano. If you two develop a good groove, maybe the drummer will improve by hearing the two of you.

The drummer sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing, he really has to play less. My suggestion if you want to keep the guy, is to hold trio rehearsals (drums/bass/pno) and work on the groove.

But HOW do you tell him to play less without getting him angry?

Do I just say: "Hi Joe, could we try just simplifying the ride cymbal pattern? I'd like to see if get a better groove...."