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#1850904 - 02/24/12 04:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
From the head though, do you start soloing on the next P5? Or take the head changes again and that is now Sequence 1 (in 4/4)?

Or the head counts as Seq 1 and the first solo is P5 and 3/4?
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#1850929 - 02/24/12 04:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
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Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Well, you could go listen and figure it out. smile That's what I did... good for the ears. But I'll tell you...

The head counts as the first sequence. When Bill plays it he actually continues improvising past all 12 keys and finishes with the head in a different key than where he started. I guess you could just start in any key you want and go from there.

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#1850944 - 02/24/12 05:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
LOL - I did but you don't go into 3/4 till very far in smile So I lost count already.

BTW - your time was so solid the whole way. The pulse was strong and clear.
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#1850954 - 02/24/12 05:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
From the head though, do you start soloing on the next P5? Or take the head changes again and that is now Sequence 1 (in 4/4)? Or the head counts as Seq 1 and the first solo is P5 and 3/4?
It's pretty simple.
16 bars head 4/4 in Ab, starts on the II
16 bars head in 3/4 in Eb, starts on the II

Solo 16 bars 4/4 in Bb
Solo 16 bars 3/4 in F

Solo 16 bars 4/4 in C
Solo 16 bars 3/4 in G

And so on. smile
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#1852188 - 02/26/12 07:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
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#1852415 - 02/27/12 08:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
I've been working on Comrade Conrad, but all in 4/4. Until the chord progression is second nature, it's too much to remember what key you're in, improvise, and change time signature. It's a great exercise for II-V-Is. So far, it's exposed several keys where I'm weak in the minor II-V-I. Since you have so little prep time before you arrive in each new key, it exposes right away any key you're not fully comfortable in.

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#1852425 - 02/27/12 09:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: beeboss


2 handed melody == impressive !!

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#1852701 - 02/27/12 06:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jjo
I've been working on Comrade Conrad, but all in 4/4. Until the chord progression is second nature, it's too much to remember what key you're in, improvise, and change time signature. It's a great exercise for II-V-Is. So far, it's exposed several keys where I'm weak in the minor II-V-I. Since you have so little prep time before you arrive in each new key, it exposes right away any key you're not fully comfortable in.


I was trying that today. Pretty hard to do.
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#1853348 - 02/28/12 08:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss


You had great sounding lines there Beeboss. Not sure I can handle the drums though. It was very distracting to me, maybe because of the type of tune. Also maybe because it's a bebop tune, not walking the bass was unexpected. Maybe I'd react to differently without the drums.
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#1853528 - 02/29/12 05:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
I am surprised you don't like the drums, I would just love to have a real drummer who sounded like that. I guess we all have different ideas of how jazz should sound and that is a good thing.
Who are your fave drummers JW, what kind of drumming really floats your boat?

I don't know what you mean about the bass not walking though, as it walks all through except for a 2 feel in the 1st sequence.
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#1853541 - 02/29/12 06:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
That was hot playing, Dave B. I also liked the bass.

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#1853545 - 02/29/12 06:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Just recorded a video practicing Comrad Conrad. Still needs work but it's coming along. It's definitely tough modulating through all the keys and some are still easier than others. And once I forgot to switch time signatures until a few bars into a chorus. Oh well! Comments and suggestions welcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_LWHQLgSOs


Hey Comrade ! You're so brave to even attempt it Scott. Amazing how you kept it going for nearly 5 min. It is such a beautiful tune.

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#1853622 - 02/29/12 10:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I am surprised you don't like the drums, I would just love to have a real drummer who sounded like that. I guess we all have different ideas of how jazz should sound and that is a good thing.
Who are your fave drummers JW, what kind of drumming really floats your boat?

I don't know what you mean about the bass not walking though, as it walks all through except for a 2 feel in the 1st sequence.


Beeboss, there was some two feel in the middle too.

I just reacted to the drums because of the specific tune. Maybe because the tune itself is so fast that I'm looking for some rhythmic anchor that's stable (like if I'm playing on it). So with the free feel and the bass not always walking, my ear was losing the position in the form.

I'm amazed at how solid your rhythm is such that complex patterns don't faze you and you stay solidly in the form. My brain just couldn't keep up.

There are plenty of fast tunes where I don't lose my place when I listen. But something holds the pulse though I'm at a loss to explain why. Maybe I'll pay more attention next time. Maybe there's downbeat markers that I hear strongly. In your drummer, I was focused on listening to the ride.

I don't recall reacting to this before BTW. Is this one of Paul Carman drum tracks?
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#1853626 - 02/29/12 10:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Actually Dave, is the backup track something you could share? Just saying because I've been working on indiana lately.

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#1853638 - 02/29/12 10:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south


Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I'm amazed at how solid your rhythm is such that complex patterns don't faze you and you stay solidly in the form. My brain just couldn't keep up.


I am not that great at it truthfully. Listen to how the masters do it ….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4rfe5xHCIg




Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I don't recall reacting to this before BTW. Is this one of Paul Carman drum tracks?


Yes. There is of course a difficulty in that the drum track doesn't know what tune I am playing or how long it is or when the new section starts, so maybe it is a little harder to follow that a real drummer who is actually playing the song, but the other side is that he is a great drummer and doesn't drop any beats (or slow down speed up etc), which makes it easy to play with.
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#1853639 - 02/29/12 10:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty
Actually Dave, is the backup track something you could share? Just saying because I've been working on indiana lately.


Sure, I'll try to upload a pianoless version later on
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#1853643 - 02/29/12 11:00 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
and because I'm picky like that, if there's a count off, that would be kind of cool.

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#1853649 - 02/29/12 11:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>Yes. There is of course a difficulty in that the drum track doesn't know what tune I am playing or how long it is or when the new section starts, so maybe it is a little harder to follow that a real drummer who is actually playing the song, but the other side is that he is a great drummer and doesn't drop any beats (or slow down speed up etc), which makes it easy to play with.

So I don't know how it is for you, but for me, the main person dropping time is usually the bass player. That is, as long as the bass player is a metronome, things stay under control.
I had an occasion to play with a really lousy drummer, and a lousy bass player, and it was amazing how I tried to push the time but nothing would hold.

Generally speaking, when the bass is good, the time is good, on drum solos however, there is often time issues. Obviously, with back up tracks, it's different. Presumably, this was recorded against a click anyway.

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#1853724 - 02/29/12 12:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
...which is why a walking bass is easier to follow than two feel (bass sets time).

I'm experimenting with more two feel in the next few gigs. I told my bass player and drummer to feel free to switch to two feel. I expect it will change the way I solo. Maybe open it up a little bit.

Same with 3/4 tune and the rhythm section changes to 6/8. It changes my mindset.

Anyway, two-feel is scary because now part of the burden of the time goes to the pianist since there's all that space in there.
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#1853889 - 02/29/12 07:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Donna Lee rhythm track for anyone who wants to give it a go

http://www.divshare.com/download/16915851-8c3
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#1853904 - 02/29/12 07:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Although I didn't play over it, I just imagined playing over the track and I was able to stay in place. Just needs concentration though. I had to pretty much just focus on the bass and ignore the drums. Good training tool!

This is pretty fast BTW, Beeboss. 220-240?
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#1854354 - 03/01/12 04:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Rune E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/12
Posts: 69
Loc: Sweden
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Donna Lee rhythm track for anyone who wants to give it a go

http://www.divshare.com/download/16915851-8c3


Thanks for sharing! Much appreciated.

Cheers,
Rune

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#1854357 - 03/01/12 04:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Donna Lee rhythm track for anyone who wants to give it a go

http://www.divshare.com/download/16915851-8c3


Thanks Dave!
Man it's hard to play with those drums. So busy!

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#1854424 - 03/01/12 05:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Donna Lee rhythm track for anyone who wants to give it a go

http://www.divshare.com/download/16915851-8c3


Thanks Dave!
Man it's hard to play with those drums. So busy!


Well I'm glad it's not just me. smile
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#1854451 - 03/01/12 06:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Donna Lee rhythm track for anyone who wants to give it a go

http://www.divshare.com/download/16915851-8c3


Thanks Dave!
Man it's hard to play with those drums. So busy!


You are welcome.
It is strange because I don't find it hard at all, actually I find it much much easier than playing with a metronome. Maybe because the drums are creating some rhythmic interest rather than just keeping time.

This is the kind of drumming I like ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QeW8gKf07U&feature=fvst

You have to work a little to follow the sequence here!
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#1854478 - 03/01/12 06:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Thanks Beeboss for the Donna Lee track! I've never learned that tune but the changes are really fun to play over. I'm going to start working out the head.

Anyway, I tried playing over the backing track. I don't find it hard to keep track of the time and the drums are really cool, but it's just a bit too fast for me to stay in control. I didn't even bother trying to comp. Here's my messy attempt at playing over the changes...

http://www.box.com/s/7pypirj3vvt6b8dphpbq

After that I thought I'd like to see what I could do going slower, so I recorded lines on my keyboard with the metronome at 120, then played it back at 230 to record it on my computer and match it up with the backing track. So here's what I'd like to be able to do...

http://www.box.com/s/umzcfshmonlq8jmd3v3i

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#1854507 - 03/01/12 07:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Thanks Beeboss for the Donna Lee track! I've never learned that tune but the changes are really fun to play over. I'm going to start working out the head.

Anyway, I tried playing over the backing track. I don't find it hard to keep track of the time and the drums are really cool, but it's just a bit too fast for me to stay in control. I didn't even bother trying to comp. Here's my messy attempt at playing over the changes...

http://www.box.com/s/7pypirj3vvt6b8dphpbq

After that I thought I'd like to see what I could do going slower, so I recorded lines on my keyboard with the metronome at 120, then played it back at 230 to record it on my computer and match it up with the backing track. So here's what I'd like to be able to do...

http://www.box.com/s/umzcfshmonlq8jmd3v3i



Good job Scott, it didn't sound very messy to me, just a tiny bit. Mine sounds messy as well. It is just hard to make all the right changes and play decent lines at that speed.
It should be easy enough to slow the backing track down a bit with any audio software. I should probably do that as well, and then push it a few clicks each day. Hmm got me thinking now.

I just put a version up on youtube ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTrf650Ot4I&feature=youtu.be
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#1854516 - 03/01/12 08:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Sounded pretty good Scott. I think the fact that the drums are playing so aggressive that it feels faster than it really is.



Edited by knotty (03/01/12 08:18 PM)

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#1854522 - 03/01/12 08:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
a simple thing that makes playing fast against a metronome much easier is to put the metronome on 2&4. Y'a'll know that already but it's the effect of playing against a relaxed beat that really helps.

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#1854867 - 03/02/12 11:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Nice job Scott! You did that so fast. Too busy right now to record this but I did try it quickly for a few choruses.

BTW Anytime I think of Donna Lee, I always have to play lots of triplets. Maybe because it's in the head a lot.

I might give this a try later on. I've really only spent time playing the head on this (which I can no longer do cleanly).
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