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#1912905 - 06/13/12 02:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well I can't do this without a piano... smile
I was using the Time Trainer AWAY from the piano.
Feel free to whack a table top.
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#1912912 - 06/13/12 02:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
BTW - Paradiddles seem hard when you have to think of it, but not that hard when you "read" it.
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#1912961 - 06/13/12 04:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

Btw: have you guys read this?
JAZZ-TODAY AND TOMORROW (1964)
a round table discussion with:
Cannonball, Dave Brubeck, Dizzy, Mingus, S Kenton, Gerry Mulligan, George Russell, etc.
http://www.cannonball-adderley.com/article/playboy2.htm


Interesting personalities all together, makes me wish I was there!


Thanks for the link, that was very interesting
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#1913254 - 06/14/12 02:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Beeboss, since you are a bass player, maybe you can tell me what's going on.

This is Miles Davis - Straight No Chaser. I guess the bassist is Paul Chambers and clearly is no slouch.

But it's really hard to follow the bass here because several times in the tune, it's almost like the bass purposely drags and I lose it if I'm not aware because I think he's walking. Now if I keep tapping at the same tempo, it goes back to the pulse but I thought for moment that the bass player went out of time and I figured that was not likely.

Note at :06, :11 and starting somewhere around :20 all the way to almost :30. The bass seems to change rhythm. This happens all throughout. These are some of the intricacies of time that's hard to practice if you're not exposed to it. Is some of that complex subdivision like in that video of yours? It feels like he's playing the 'pickup' beat instead of the 1.

There's another variation around 3:14 and several times after that.

What is going there exactly? It settles down after awhile and will just go to that 'pickup beat' feel every so often.

Normally, I listen to the bass player for the pulse but when the bass player and drummer play openly or something like this, then I guess I have to derive the pulse from somewhere else. What's the advice here?

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#1913298 - 06/14/12 05:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south

I get what you mean I think. Chambers is playing as though the triplet 1/8th just before the downbeat is the downbeat which has the effect of sounding like he is pushing or ahead of the time. He isn't of course, it is just a device he brings in for rhythmic interest. Anticipation of the beat maybe you could call it, actually he is playing in front of the beat by an 1/8 note, but only for a bar or so at a time at most. It sounds great to me.
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#1913299 - 06/14/12 05:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
BTW - Paradiddles seem hard when you have to think of it, but not that hard when you "read" it.

Single single double
or
single double single
or
double single single

My drum teacher built his whole teaching/drumming concept around Paradiddles.
He said that's what Steve Gadd does . . . and Tony Williams.
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#1913301 - 06/14/12 05:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Anticipation of the beat maybe you could call it, actually he is playing in front of the beat by an 1/8 note, but only for a bar or so at a time at most. It sounds great to me.
+ 1
It's a great rhythmical device to utilize on the bass (Btw: I'm getting more and more calls for my bass playing . . . ha! Never thought it would come to that. I did my first gig 2 months ago and the phone has been ringing . . . strange, but fun. Love my double-bass.)

An ensemble teacher that I had a couple of years back said that was the main difference between Swing and Jazz. In Swing the one is one, in Jazz the one is four-and.

I believe the Pulse should be internalized.
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#1913361 - 06/14/12 09:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
But you can see how that can throw you off. If I encountered that with by band, and I've never listened to Paul Chambers, I would have thought we just went off time. That's confusing as heck to follow. Especially when he does it for multiple bars at :20 - :30.

The drummer of course is also playing complex patterns. So how do you sync your time?

The good news is that my time has solidified enough that I noticed this immediately. The bad news I'm not sure how to keep myself from losing the pulse. Especially when I keep hearing -- "follow the bass". Well here that's obviousy a problem.

Usually when I hear a pickup beat on the bass, it is followed by the downbeat so you hear two notes. That I know is a common device to make it swing. Here the downbeat was absent.
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#1913389 - 06/14/12 10:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
I have my time internalized. It starts with somebody counting the tempo, that starts my inner pulse (and hopefully everybody else's in the band). That pulse is our golden mean. It means that nobody needs to play/define the basic pulse, so we can all play subdivisions if we like (we're getting suspiciously close to free-form jazz . . smile )

I've been practising counting either triplets or sixteenths silently whilst either comping or during my solo.

Another thing I've picked up it that jazz-time is 12/8 so even if I'm playing 4/4 I think/feel 12/8. Also, there's no 1 2 3 4 only 1 1 1 1
I got the Mike Longo rhythm Dvd, basically it's a taped master-class, but there's one scene where he plays a groove on the congas and switches between 4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 7/4 without a hickup or it sounding really weird. That made me go wow!

Another anecdote: When recording the Palle Danielsson / Monica sessions M was having some problems at first as Palle does not state the beat/pulse, he rarely walks. She told me "I have to hold on to my own pulse, not listen to the bass lines, but feel our common pulse". It means being secure in ones own time. Not relying on somebody else to keep your time. Palle said "I have an inner metronome, so I don't need to play the downbeats".



Edited by chrisbell (06/14/12 10:10 AM)
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#1913430 - 06/14/12 11:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

Another anecdote: When recording the Palle Danielsson / Monica sessions M was having some problems at first as Palle does not state the beat/pulse, he rarely walks. She told me "I have to hold on to my own pulse, not listen to the bass lines, but feel our common pulse". It means being secure in ones own time. Not relying on somebody else to keep your time. Palle said "I have an inner metronome, so I don't need to play the downbeats".



That is it. Everyone has to know where the pulse it, you can't just get it from the bass. It is a collective thing. We all need a strong inner pulse and also the flexibility to move it around slightly and adjust to our fellow musicinas . This can only be achieved by listening closely to everybody.
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#1913431 - 06/14/12 11:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

(Btw: I'm getting more and more calls for my bass playing . . . ha! Never thought it would come to that. I did my first gig 2 months ago and the phone has been ringing . . . strange, but fun. Love my double-bass.)


Excellent, double bass players are always in demand. Such a shame I play electric bass which nobody likes in jazz.
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#1913503 - 06/14/12 02:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Well you could always start a Fusion band . . .
With that said: I love Weather Report, in all the different incarnations.
But the first two with Jaco . . . man oh man I love his bass playing.

I dig my bass guitars (fretted and fretless) but the acoustic . . . well it's something else.

Oh right, this is Piano World. Sorry. smile
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#1913523 - 06/14/12 03:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Well you could always start a Fusion band . . .
With that said: I love Weather Report, in all the different incarnations.
But the first two with Jaco . . . man oh man I love his bass playing.

I dig my bass guitars (fretted and fretless) but the acoustic . . . well it's something else.

Oh right, this is Piano World. Sorry. smile


Tell me, Chris, how long have you played the db for? I've always been fascinated by it, but haven't had an instrument to play on more than once every few years or so. Is it something really that different from fretless besides the hand position and the sheer stretch of the fingers?
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#1913532 - 06/14/12 04:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
I bought mine 3 years ago. But I've only practised for about a year and a half.

It's very different (there's something called a bow for instance smile )
It's all about hand position. And playing in tune . . .
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#1913639 - 06/14/12 07:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
I got a good answer to my question of how to keep up with open playing of the rhythm section, including that anticipating bass line...

"Keep the pulse of the bar going -- or whole note pulse. It will override all the subvisions inside the bar."

"Maintain two pulses -- whole note and quarter note".
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#1914843 - 06/17/12 09:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
2 pics from this past week.

Jazz Tavern called Takoma Station:


And an embassy gig on a brand new Boston piano. (hammers untouched)


Looking forward to Kentucky in 3 weeks!!
Apparently, Blues is what they test you on, so I think I know what to practice...

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#1915033 - 06/17/12 08:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
I like both those pics a lot Knotty.
Nice Keith Jarrett shoes, and what a gorgeous looking piano.

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#1915056 - 06/17/12 10:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Nice pics Knots. You get a lot of space when you play. We tend to get squeezed together tightly. I'm also surprised you keep your bass player far away. I like being next to the bass player.
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#1915146 - 06/18/12 07:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Depends, these 2 spots were really nice, but played in a really tight restaurant Thursday night. Crash cymbal flying over the last octave. Earplugs in.
I usually make sure that the drummer can hear the bass. But this guys's not shy so it's not an issue. I keep the horn close as much as possible.

Embassy gigs are the best but kinda hard to get. And sometimes a royal pain to get into...

Of the 4 gigs last week, they were all different players, except the bass I played with twice...

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#1915240 - 06/18/12 11:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
<Fashion police>Is that Gray socks to black trouser I see before me?</Fashion police>

_________________________

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#1917147 - 06/22/12 09:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 639
Loc: Chicago
So what new pieces are people working on? Here's what my band and I are looking at:

Nardis: really like this tune. We've already performed it. Lot's of white keys in the chords, but you can easily spice it up.

Goodbye Porkpie Hat: We haven't done a slow tune in while. Found out that there are different changes for the solos. We've yet to play it as a band.

Firm Roots: Nice Cedar Walton tune. Not in the Real Book, but I was able to buy a lead sheet on line.

Question and Answer: A great Pat Metheny tune. Haven't tried it yet with the band and we'll have to see if it works as a piano trio.

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#1917168 - 06/22/12 10:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jjo

Question and Answer: A great Pat Metheny tune. Haven't tried it yet with the band and we'll have to see if it works as a piano trio.


I have been playing that one a bit recently. The giant steps bit in the bridge is hard but over before you know it.

Love Nardis.
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#1917234 - 06/22/12 12:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 639
Loc: Chicago
Why don't you post a take of Question & Answer? Love to hear your take on it.

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#1917515 - 06/22/12 09:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
And I would love to hear your version of Nardis if you have recorded it Dave.
One of my favourite tunes, it seems so difficult, I especially like Jacky Terrasson's version.

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#1917548 - 06/23/12 12:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
jjo, was on vacation...

Band started doing Wave lately. I've started working on Con Alma.

I was going to play Nardis recently but realized I was a little rusty on the head. So it's something I'll be playing soon. It's not something that sounds good with a regular automated backing track though because of the "hits" on the head. So I'm not likely to post it as music here.

Some other things planned but not yet done are In Walked Bud, Driftin', Gloria's Step.

My list of known tunes have grown huge now though not necessarily memorized. The only issue with many are my ability to remember the head without sight-reading (which I couldn't do anyway). I need to set aside time each practice session to play a couple of heads regularly. Maybe I'll cycle through all the tunes I know. Unfortunately, having horn players takes the load off on playing heads and it's bad for practice.

Good Bye Pork Pie Hat was something we worked on here some time back. A couple of the guys have some finished versions of this (Beeboss, etc.) I've never played it on a gig. But mostly just because I can only play a single ballad typically. So new tunes never bubble up. We have enough that don't get played.
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#1917619 - 06/23/12 05:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: custard apple
And I would love to hear your version of Nardis if you have recorded it Dave.
One of my favourite tunes, it seems so difficult, I especially like Jacky Terrasson's version.


I really like the Terrason version as well. Also there is an amazing version by Helge Lien I am really into at the moment.
I haven't recorded Nardis myself and having heard those versions am not in a hurry to try.
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#1917627 - 06/23/12 06:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Well if you feel like this, imagine how I feel.
At this stage, I have 2 songs to learn in my goal-list for 30 years' time: Nardis, and Comrade Conrad.


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#1918215 - 06/24/12 07:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 639
Loc: Chicago
Jazzwee: I really like Goria's Step. As long as you get the hits in the second bar it's a pretty easy tune to solo on. I've got In Walked Bud on my future list. I don't know Driftin' so I'll have to look that one up.

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#1918299 - 06/24/12 11:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: jjo
Jazzwee: I really like Goria's Step. As long as you get the hits in the second bar it's a pretty easy tune to solo on. I've got In Walked Bud on my future list. I don't know Driftin' so I'll have to look that one up.


One that I already know but somehow the band always screws up is Invitation. It's really difficult to play so I've skipped it for many gigs. I'm going to add it in at the next gig and hopefully we'll survive it.

Lately I've been playing Ceora too and aside from the head, the rest is pretty easy.

Con Alma - which I was working on this weekend is really hard to figure out. I know it can be simplified from looking at it as changing keys every half bar.

BTW jjo -- Stolen Moments is now something I play very often. Thanks for the transcription of the head on that.
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#1918755 - 06/26/12 04:09 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Jam Tunes

This one was pretty cool. Freddie Hubbard tune. I never played it before. By the time the tune started, I was still looking for the lead sheet. I realize it sounds more like fusion than jazz...

Red Clay
https://www.box.com/s/af32a168dd66a471bf14

Invitation
https://www.box.com/s/304073afa3f7ca65f50b




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