Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 177 of 227 < 1 2 ... 175 176 177 178 179 ... 226 227 >
Topic Options
#1940079 - 08/09/12 09:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Knots, I've been implying it for weeks. Dorian mode is VERY important. But do you understand what that translates too? You might think it's just the scale of the tonic. It's a lot more. Listen to Freddie Hubbard's 'Little Sunflower'. Listen to all those chords in the melody. That's what Dorian mode means.

You can run voicings up and down the scale stepwise (diatonically) and they all work. Only works for tunes in Dorian mode. I've been talking about moving voicings around in steps (quickly), like two-handed Maiden Voyage voicings. It's tough to do outside of D Dorian.

You get a small taste of it in the head of So What, but if you listen closely to the voicings during the solo, you'll so that Bill Evans moves around. Again same thing as above.

This means there are some special skills required to pull this off in every Dorian mode (all 12).

And this is just dorian mode. All of these scales imply "colors" in the progression. It affects voicing choices. Yes some scales (modes) are so rare but obvious. For example, do you really need to think of a melodic minor mode when playing Maj7(#5)? (modern voicing thing). No. Just play the #5. Just like there's no need to discuss Lydian dominant as a scale. It just means #11. ALT just means b9/#9/#11/#5. Whole tone just means #11/#5.

If you don't play tunes with these alterations then maybe that's why it's not something you've encountered much. Look at a tune like Along Came Betty (Golson). That sucker is full of Alt Chords. But really it's all just chromatics so not a big deal.

This is why I don't really need to memorize Melodic minor modes. I just need to know what's altered from from the basic scale. It's very important for all improvisers to think in terms of 1-b9-9-#9-3-11-#11-5-b13-13-b7-7 instantaneously in all 12 keys.

This is also why two handed voicings are critical to really getting a handle on where every note is.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
(ads P/S)

Sauter Pianos

#1940093 - 08/09/12 10:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I must have not explained myself very well.

I quoted Burton and said I disagree.
Do you agree with his top 10 scales?

Which would be your top 10 scales?

Top
#1940115 - 08/09/12 11:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Do people really think Dorian? Ok, maybe on some tunes, like Maiden Voyage, but on standards?



I was responding to this. Maybe I misunderstood. Unless you are dealing with a Dorian tune, then no, thinking in dorian is not important. The advantages of dorian cannot be taken advantage of in one bar.

You're right, it's not that applicable to ii-V-I standards.

But it's true that there aren't that many scales to think about. What I was saying that beyond the 10 that Burton was saying, the rest can be inferred by the underlying chord. Knowledge of the entire scale is unnecessary. I'd say less than 10.

Phyrygian? I need to practice a scale for Lydian dominant and Lydian? Both are just one note difference from an underlying scale.

But of course it is (less than 10) X 12 TONES. So it's still a lot.

What I was saying though was if you just encapsulate every scale in the thought process of what alteration applies, then it's even simpler. And it's easier to think of melodically (non-linear) like with triads and other shapes.

Scales don't clearly show the underlying harmony. For example, a diminished SCALE is actually TWO diminished chords...


Edited by jazzwee (08/09/12 11:56 PM)
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
#1940139 - 08/10/12 01:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well as an example, Softly as in the Morning Sunrise, the | D-7b5 G7b9 | the melody hits the Eb a couple of times. If I just did a blind D-7b5(9)(11) voicing on it, I'd sound off.
Not sure what you mean. There's no Eb played on the Dm7(b5) chord in the tune. Not in the version I have.


Hmmm...Bar 4 of head.

And then look to Stella on A-7b5 (Bb is played), etc.

It's pretty common.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
#1940141 - 08/10/12 02:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well as an example, Softly as in the Morning Sunrise, the | D-7b5 G7b9 | the melody hits the Eb a couple of times. If I just did a blind D-7b5(9)(11) voicing on it, I'd sound off.
Not sure what you mean. There's no Eb played on the Dm7(b5) chord in the tune. Not in the version I have.


Hmmm...Bar 4 of head.

And then look to Stella on A-7b5 (Bb is played), etc.

It's pretty common.

JW, in both these cases the note in question (Eb for Sunrise) is NOT played on the Dm7b5 chord, nor is the Bb played with the Am7b5-- it is played before the bar. In the instances when a note is played in Stella that is not a chord tone (Eb on the Bbmaj chord bar 9 for example) this is just what the real book shows, but doesn't mean that Ebs are good choices on an Bbmaj chord. It's just short hand for people that already know how to handle those things. I think most people may treat the Eb in bar 9 as a suspension.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



Top
#1940190 - 08/10/12 06:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well as an example, Softly as in the Morning Sunrise, the | D-7b5 G7b9 | the melody hits the Eb a couple of times. If I just did a blind D-7b5(9)(11) voicing on it, I'd sound off.
Not sure what you mean. There's no Eb played on the Dm7(b5) chord in the tune. Not in the version I have.

Hmmm...Bar 4 of head.
And then look to Stella on A-7b5 (Bb is played), etc.
It's pretty common.

Bar 4 is a Fm7. At least that's what I play there.
Stella? sorry don't know what you mean, which bar is that?
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

Top
#1940193 - 08/10/12 07:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scales don't clearly show the underlying harmony. For example, a diminished SCALE is actually TWO diminished chords...

Hmm I don't think that scales should show the underlying harmony. Harmony and scales are two different things.

A chord/scale relationship is about what scale works (sounds sonically solid) with what chord.

Ie: Lydian visavi Ionian on a Maj7.

From a scale I can derive chords . . . maybe we're talking about the same thing but from different angles. smile
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

Top
#1940195 - 08/10/12 07:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
I must have not explained myself very well.
I quoted Burton and said I disagree.
Do you agree with his top 10 scales?
Which would be your top 10 scales?
I like his take on Light (bright) and Dark scales. His concept is like a theoretical Gaffa tape, it holds his (musical) Universe together and it has a Light and a Dark side.

I have to listen again to the lecture, this time more closely.
Get back to you about this.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

Top
#1940197 - 08/10/12 07:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Good point on light vs dark, that part is kind of interesting. Still, I think his statement should be rephrased.Something like, btw, some of these modes are really not common in Jazz.

>>What I was saying that beyond the 10 that Burton was saying, the rest can be inferred by the underlying chord.
ok, JW, so by this, I assume you agree with Burton's 10 scales that represent 99% of Jazz. And I still disagree.

>>Phyrygian? I need to practice a scale for Lydian dominant and Lydian? Both are just one note difference from an underlying scale.
Here's an interesting concept. What's underlying scale?

I do think that if you are to start playing scales and modes of scales, then you outta actually practice those scales with modes. What Cus is saying. However, I would tell Cus, forget practicing 1/2 of them.

Dorian?
you're right, I contradict myself there. Maiden Voyage is reason enough.

Phrygian?
getting bordeline.

Myx?
Where is that used? Sus chords maybe. What's a good tune for practicing that one.

Locrian. Still have no idea. By the lack of response here, I take it no one else uses it, so that scale can safely be ignored.

Aeolian, same as locrian. Some lose corners maybe.

When you think about it, modes of the major scales are much less exciting than modes of the minor scales.

Top
#1940199 - 08/10/12 07:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
What are the first 2 measures of Softly?

(warning, can of worms wink )

Top
#1940210 - 08/10/12 08:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well as an example, Softly as in the Morning Sunrise, the | D-7b5 G7b9 | the melody hits the Eb a couple of times. If I just did a blind D-7b5(9)(11) voicing on it, I'd sound off.
Not sure what you mean. There's no Eb played on the Dm7(b5) chord in the tune. Not in the version I have.

Hmmm...Bar 4 of head.
And then look to Stella on A-7b5 (Bb is played), etc.
It's pretty common.

Bar 4 is a Fm7. At least that's what I play there.
Stella? sorry don't know what you mean, which bar is that?


I also have a 2-5 in C- bar 4. Are you looking at the verse?

Top
#1940215 - 08/10/12 08:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
Phrygian? getting bordeline.

Well, we all have to play Corea's la Fiesta occasionally.
Originally Posted By: knotty
Myx?
Where is that used? Sus chords maybe. What's a good tune for practicing that one.

Wherever there's a straight dominant7 chord. There's several examples in the Gary Burton/Steve Swallow book.
Originally Posted By: knotty
Locrian. Still have no idea. By the lack of response here, I take it no one else uses it, so that scale can safely be ignored.
Well if you're an old jazz-rock hack like myself you'd use it. It's great at fast tempos played on a rhodes with heavy distortion or even a mini-moog. Locrian is great for stacking major triads on a pedal bass.
Originally Posted By: knotty
Aeolian, same as locrian. Some lose corners maybe.
The natural minor is used a lot in Nordic music, also in several ECM productions from the 70's. Check out that tune Vignette from Tales of Another (a Gary Peacock lead trio w Keith and Jack) that I recommended earlier, it's all solos on Natural minor (except one and that's Phrygian).
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

Top
#1940219 - 08/10/12 09:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
I also have a 2-5 in C- bar 4. Are you looking at the verse?

Yes.
First verse:
Cm6 Cm/Eb | Dm7(b5) G7(b9#5) | Cm7 F#7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Cm6 Am7(b5) | Dm7(b5) G7(b9#5) | Cm6 Am7(b5) |
Dm7(b5) G7(b9#5) |
Is what I play.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

Top
#1940235 - 08/10/12 09:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: knotty
Phrygian? getting bordeline.

Well, we all have to play Corea's la Fiesta occasionally.
Originally Posted By: knotty
Myx?
Where is that used? Sus chords maybe. What's a good tune for practicing that one.

Wherever there's a straight dominant7 chord. There's several examples in the Gary Burton/Steve Swallow book.
Originally Posted By: knotty
Locrian. Still have no idea. By the lack of response here, I take it no one else uses it, so that scale can safely be ignored.
Well if you're an old jazz-rock hack like myself you'd use it. It's great at fast tempos played on a rhodes with heavy distortion or even a mini-moog. Locrian is great for stacking major triads on a pedal bass.
Originally Posted By: knotty
Aeolian, same as locrian. Some lose corners maybe.
The natural minor is used a lot in Nordic music, also in several ECM productions from the 70's. Check out that tune Vignette from Tales of Another (a Gary Peacock lead trio w Keith and Jack) that I recommended earlier, it's all solos on Natural minor (except one and that's Phrygian).


Thanks!

Top
#1940237 - 08/10/12 09:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: knotty
I also have a 2-5 in C- bar 4. Are you looking at the verse?

Yes.
First verse:
Cm6 Cm/Eb | Dm7(b5) G7(b9#5) | Cm7 F#7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Cm6 Am7(b5) | Dm7(b5) G7(b9#5) | Cm6 Am7(b5) |
Dm7(b5) G7(b9#5) |
Is what I play.


Probably the source of confusion. I've never played the verse myself. Maybe heard it, but I can't say I remember. To me, Softly is associated with Wynton Kelly wink

Top
#1940242 - 08/10/12 09:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
No, I'm confusing it. smile
When I mean the verse I mean the same as W Kelly's head.
Daaa da da da da da da daaa da da da da da da etc

He does do a nice minor bluesy version of it on the Kelly Blue album btw
Which is cool because one could do a bluesy C C Bb Bb | Ab Ab G G bass line to A part of the tune. Or even use the Tadd turnaround.
One reason I love these "old" chestnuts, there's so much one can do with the tune.


Edited by chrisbell (08/10/12 10:00 AM)
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

Top
#1940246 - 08/10/12 10:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
smile that's why it's a can of worms, so many ways to look at it. I do love the bluesy version.

Top
#1940252 - 08/10/12 10:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
You guys play the head of Softly differently but makes no difference. I play it like in the leadsheet. In this case, I just looked at the Colorado Book. Eb IS played on the Downbeat on D-7b5. Whether someone reharmed it or not, the issue is that b9 is played often and there's a whole paragraph in Levine's Jazz Piano Book with the debate.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
#1940253 - 08/10/12 10:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scales don't clearly show the underlying harmony. For example, a diminished SCALE is actually TWO diminished chords...

Hmm I don't think that scales should show the underlying harmony. Harmony and scales are two different things.

A chord/scale relationship is about what scale works (sounds sonically solid) with what chord.

Ie: Lydian visavi Ionian on a Maj7.

From a scale I can derive chords . . . maybe we're talking about the same thing but from different angles. smile


What I am saying is that looked at closely, there are multiple chords in a scale. And needs to be known and judiciously applied. That's why I look at triad shapes. Each triad suggests a different harmony. But you already know that.

So I think of the scale less than I think of the triad harmony in the scale. The scale just prevents one from tripping up and picking wrong notes.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
#1940254 - 08/10/12 10:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
You guys play the head of Softly differently but makes no difference. I play it like in the leadsheet. In this case, I just looked at the Colorado Book. Eb IS played on the Downbeat on D-7b5. Whether someone reharmed it or not, the issue is that b9 is played often and there's a whole paragraph in Levine's Jazz Piano Book with the debate.

I agree with this. 9 or b9 seem totally valid to me. Strictly speaking, 9 is less dissonant, but both seem equally fine.

Top
#1940255 - 08/10/12 10:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
HEre's a shot at answering my own question.

Strictly from a pedagogy standpoint, what are the top 10 scales. In order, mine. I might change my mind later. Tell me what you think.

Major
Melodic Minor
Harmonic Minor
Lydian Dominant
Lydian
Dorian
Super Locrian
Diminished
Phrygian
Locrian #2

Top
#1940258 - 08/10/12 10:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
You guys play the head of Softly differently but makes no difference. I play it like in the leadsheet. In this case, I just looked at the Colorado Book. Eb IS played on the Downbeat on D-7b5. Whether someone reharmed it or not, the issue is that b9 is played often and there's a whole paragraph in Levine's Jazz Piano Book with the debate.
No reharm here. It's what's in my book. There's several different versions of the head in different books. None has the truth. As Knotty wrote: it's a can of worms.
The only way to start from the beginning is getting hold of the original chart.

Ah well. It was originally a tango in 2/4.
http://www.jazzstandards.com/compositions-1/softlyasinamorningsunrise.htm


Edited by chrisbell (08/10/12 10:43 AM)
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

Top
#1940267 - 08/10/12 10:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
HEre's a shot at answering my own question.

Strictly from a pedagogy standpoint, what are the top 10 scales. In order, mine. I might change my mind later. Tell me what you think.

Major
Melodic Minor
Harmonic Minor
Lydian Dominant
Lydian
Dorian
Super Locrian
Diminished
Phrygian
Locrian #2



I would never think of practicing all these. I practice

Ionian
Dorian
Diminished
Diminished Whole-Tone

Then the rest of the time I'm just looking at alterations to Ionian (what I think of as the underlying scale).

But I will practice triads in all modes. Now of course visually I know every scale. I just can't see the point of starting at different points of the scale for practice. Dorian being different because there I'm practicing voicings.

Practicing a scale mode implies that there's some different fingering I would use. But Jazz uses whatever fingers are available.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
#1940274 - 08/10/12 11:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty
HEre's a shot at answering my own question.

Strictly from a pedagogy standpoint, what are the top 10 scales. In order, mine. I might change my mind later. Tell me what you think.

Major
Melodic Minor
Harmonic Minor
Lydian Dominant
Lydian
Dorian
Super Locrian
Diminished
Phrygian
Locrian #2



Doesn't the blues scale count?

I suppose I don't really think the dorian is a different scale from the ionian (aeolian, phryg etc). It is a different mode of the same scale.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

Top
#1940376 - 08/10/12 02:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I just need to know what's altered from from the basic scale. It's very important for all improvisers to think in terms of 1-b9-9-#9-3-11-#11-5-b13-13-b7-7 instantaneously in all 12 keys.


You've got to know the numbers in all keys without blinking an eye. thumb All the numbers though, not just the one's you've listed. I think the key word here is "basic scale".


Which leads to this...

Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Harmony and scales are two different things.


In the evolution of music, harmony is derived from melody by layering melodic relationships. The relationships are based on the ratios of pitch frequencies, creating the "basic scale". In layering relationships to create harmonies, new relationships are revealed by the same ratios that created the first relationship, contributing to an expansion of what's available melodically and thus leading to more harmonic possibilites, and the cycle goes on...

So really harmony and melody are interconnected in a way that makes them inseperable. You can't have one without implying the other, whether this is acknowledged or not.

So, when we ask a question like this...

Originally Posted By: knotty
What are the first 2 measures of Softly?

(warning, can of worms wink )


Why are we opening a can of worms? Because of course, there are numerous ways of looking at this tune as has been pointed out. But in the end, it all starts with C. Not even C major or C minor... just C. Then, one note at a time, we start to imply inseperable melodic and harmonic relationships. Depending on which relationship we choose to hold on to, we then are able to find more relationships. This is what reharmonization, or lack-thereof for that matter, is all about.

So to me, talking about scales serves only as a way of organizing possibilities into a grouping of notes that are "sound" in some already established conventional way (by tracing back to pitch frequency ratios of the basic scale). It's very useful for learning what is possible at a given moment. But as the myriad of "scale" possibilites are absorbed, compared, and contrasted, it all ends up back to the starting point... numbers in relation (by ratios) to a central pitch. In Softly, that is C. If enough different "sound and conventional" relationships are known and are intuitive, they can be blended and overlapped and manipulated without really thinking anything about C harmonic minor, melodic minor, D dorian, dorian with a flat 2, mixolydian, altered diminished, or whatever. Which is why we all know that all 12 notes can work, so long as you know how to do it.

But that's what it's all about... learning how to do it. We many never know and that's why it's called theory smile

Top
#1940411 - 08/10/12 04:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: knotty
HEre's a shot at answering my own question.

Strictly from a pedagogy standpoint, what are the top 10 scales. In order, mine. I might change my mind later. Tell me what you think.

Major
Melodic Minor
Harmonic Minor
Lydian Dominant
Lydian
Dorian
Super Locrian
Diminished
Phrygian
Locrian #2



Doesn't the blues scale count?

I suppose I don't really think the dorian is a different scale from the ionian (aeolian, phryg etc). It is a different mode of the same scale.


How could I possibly forget the blues scale. And pentatonic scale. Ok, so I need to rethink my priorities.

>>I suppose I don't really think the dorian is a different scale from the ionian (aeolian, phryg etc). It is a different mode of the same scale.
I agree in most cases. When we look at my list of scales, they are mostly modes of major and minor scales. However, taking the example of lydian dominant, it's easier for me to just visualize that scale, rather than to think that it's a mode of a melodic minor. Or that it's some modification of a major scale.

So on that point, I will disagree with you and JW and say that there's value in practicing specifically that scale and it's application to tunes. Starting with Take the A Train, Days of Wine and Roses and other great standards.

OK, another fun quizz for all.
On a 3-6-2-5, say E- A7 D- G7
what do people use on E-7?

Top
#1940429 - 08/10/12 04:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
So on that point, I will disagree with you and JW and say that there's value in practicing specifically that scale and it's application to tunes. Starting with Take the A Train, Days of Wine and Roses and other great standards.
+1
And from that practice; triads, chords, etc is derived.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

Top
#1940430 - 08/10/12 04:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
OK, another fun quizz for all. On a 3-6-2-5, say E- A7 D- G7. What do people use on E-7?
Dorian.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

Top
#1940434 - 08/10/12 04:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty

However, taking the example of lydian dominant, it's easier for me to just visualize that scale, rather than to think that it's a mode of a melodic minor. Or that it's some modification of a major scale.

So on that point, I will disagree with you and JW and say that there's value in practicing specifically that scale and it's application to tunes.Starting with Take the A Train, Days of Wine and Roses and other great standards.




In A train you may chose to think D lydian dominant (on bars 3 and 4) and I may think A melodic minor (or even Ab dim WT or F sharp locrian sharp2)). It is only the label that changes, the notes remain. This is what is so great about modal thinking - that if you have all the A melodic minor patterns down then they apply to many different chords, so you can simultaneously practice patterns on D7sharp11 and Ab7alt and A min maj7 and F sharp m7b5.


Originally Posted By: knotty


OK, another fun quizz for all.
On a 3-6-2-5, say E- A7 D- G7
what do people use on E-7?



Is it allowed to change the Em to Em7b5 or E7sharp9?
Otherwise maybe C major, G major, D major
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

Top
#1940439 - 08/10/12 05:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I just need to know what's altered from from the basic scale. It's very important for all improvisers to think in terms of 1-b9-9-#9-3-11-#11-5-b13-13-b7-7 instantaneously in all 12 keys.


You've got to know the numbers in all keys without blinking an eye. thumb All the numbers though, not just the one's you've listed. I think the key word here is "basic scale".


Which leads to this...

Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Harmony and scales are two different things.


In the evolution of music, harmony is derived from melody by layering melodic relationships. The relationships are based on the ratios of pitch frequencies, creating the "basic scale". In layering relationships to create harmonies, new relationships are revealed by the same ratios that created the first relationship, contributing to an expansion of what's available melodically and thus leading to more harmonic possibilites, and the cycle goes on...

So really harmony and melody are interconnected in a way that makes them inseperable. You can't have one without implying the other, whether this is acknowledged or not.

So, when we ask a question like this...

Originally Posted By: knotty
What are the first 2 measures of Softly?

(warning, can of worms wink )


Why are we opening a can of worms? Because of course, there are numerous ways of looking at this tune as has been pointed out. But in the end, it all starts with C. Not even C major or C minor... just C. Then, one note at a time, we start to imply inseperable melodic and harmonic relationships. Depending on which relationship we choose to hold on to, we then are able to find more relationships. This is what reharmonization, or lack-thereof for that matter, is all about.

So to me, talking about scales serves only as a way of organizing possibilities into a grouping of notes that are "sound" in some already established conventional way (by tracing back to pitch frequency ratios of the basic scale). It's very useful for learning what is possible at a given moment. But as the myriad of "scale" possibilites are absorbed, compared, and contrasted, it all ends up back to the starting point... numbers in relation (by ratios) to a central pitch. In Softly, that is C. If enough different "sound and conventional" relationships are known and are intuitive, they can be blended and overlapped and manipulated without really thinking anything about C harmonic minor, melodic minor, D dorian, dorian with a flat 2, mixolydian, altered diminished, or whatever. Which is why we all know that all 12 notes can work, so long as you know how to do it.

But that's what it's all about... learning how to do it. We many never know and that's why it's called theory smile







Cool explanation!
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

Top
Page 177 of 227 < 1 2 ... 175 176 177 178 179 ... 226 227 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Original method for harmonic hearing development
by Nahum
10/21/14 03:19 AM
First Digital Piano - Advice needed
by chicobalay
10/21/14 02:37 AM
How to Regulate a Studio Upright for Greatest Sensitivity?
by Paul678
10/20/14 11:05 PM
How do I tackle my goal.
by imustlearn
10/20/14 10:29 PM
Advice? First digital piano for family--already own a GP
by SCD
10/20/14 07:58 PM
Who's Online
66 registered (Cheeky, bennevis, beeboss, casinitaly, 36251, 18 invisible), 1057 Guests and 10 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76599 Members
42 Forums
158395 Topics
2325956 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission