Glen, I'm excited about doing another round together. Don't worry, no rush

Actually I was going at it again briefly this morning and I'm noticing significant improvement even in form and time. I guess, it's that percentage allocation of the brain thing. Each day moves more of it subconsciously. And BTW Glen, I agree that it is from the noodling that we discover this. Is that how you figured out what to play? Just noodling without awareness of scales/etc.?

Looking at Nef with a fresh outlook again today, I was noticing that there could be really two approaches here. So far, I've focused on "trying" to highlight the harmony melodically. But everyone's been talking about the common tones over and over and I realize that this can also be played as a completely modal tune, particularly with lots of quartal shapes. I think Scep mentioned this before.

That's really sinking in now and it gives me much more freedom to shift to modal and then back to accurate harmony.

Now here's a rhythmic kicker here. Sometimes I hear Nef with a Latin type of beat. I'm just noticing that as I was practicing this morning, I had a completely different feel.

Sure, a Nef with latin-flavored rhythm would be a nice order. I'd be happy with keeping straight time

There is no way for me to figure out exactly what to play on Nef. Noodling might not be the exact word for it, however. (it might be if it were a simple progression like a i iv, vii, iii, vi, ii, iv, i progression).

For example, a Dflat-sus chord seems to provide a direction for a set of notes, just as the C7 aug 5, aug 9 chord, depending on what note or chord comes next. Because the melody line is so sparse, it opens up for even more possibility, but I lack the skill-set to take it too much further than that.

Cm-Blooze
http://www.box.net/shared/bl7v66o2gu

Love is Here to Stay
http://www.box.net/shared/ld76nlztm9

Gm Piece
http://www.box.net/shared/b69yr4f9sd

Major Minor Noodling
http://www.box.net/shared/dbcriych5g

Bflat-min
http://www.box.net/shared/f2kgd7puiq

Folk Piano
http://www.box.net/shared/z5ruu1ovol

Glen

Glen, clearly you are understating your understanding of this You were definitely coming out with ideas on Nef and that wasn't just random noodling. It's really interesting how each of us goes about it.

So to delve into this deeper, it sounds like you just looked at each chord individually and then looked to connect it to the next chord.

Did you look for common tones between sets of chords and play with that as a guide at all?

Yes, Jazzwee, it was an 'in limbo' experience because some of this I understand and some of it is beyond my reach. Some of it, admittedly, is intuitive. - ouch.

For me, there are leading tones and leading chords, so to speak. For example, a change from B7 to Eflat 7th, aug 9, sounded unnatural, so I split the four count B7 measure and played Bflat min7 - aug 5 - aug 9th before going to Eflat 7th aug 9. Based on the notes I choose in the right hand, I choose which notes to leave out or play in the left hand so as to provide more dissonance or resolution.

Glen

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1380863/Re:%20Jazz%20Study%20Group%202:%20Interm.html#Post1380863

I think the first of the three takes is probably the roughest, and you may want to skip it...
Remember, it was the first day on this back then...

Good versions of Nef, Scep. Thanks for re-posting some of your ideas. Along with Jazzwee, 7note, and Dave, it gives me something to shoot for! I am definitely reaching beyond my grasp with this piece... It is good for my brain.

Glen

Hi Sceptical, sorry I missed your links first time round. I was on my holidays. Thanks for re-upping them.
I enjoyed your versions, especially the 7.5mb one, I liked the way you went on the harmonies, good choices there. The other version with the chromatic bass line was a pretty good idea as well. The chords are so out there anyway it doesn't take much reharm to make it almost impressionistic and I like that.

Scep, it was great to relisten to your stuff again. Thanks for moving it up. Everyone was getting lazy to search to the middle of the thread.

I have to study your LH here too as you had a lot of interesting bass movement even from the 1st recording (which I liked a lot BTW, more than the last).

Now I seem to hear more of the common tones thing so it's more modal sounding than I was doing. I see that this is an alternative approach with a completely different sound. I was just experimenting with this for the first time today.

My lesson is tomorrow so I'm going to really listen hard to my teacher's feedback. Doing chord tones is one thing but if the goal is modal, then it's no holds barred.

I don't know which is better so I'm thinking of mixing it up. The problem with completely modal/common tone stuff is I'm not sure how to build up tension and release. Ideas?

JW, my simple rule and guess is, the more augmented or diminished the chord, the more tension, the simpler the resolving chord (root possibly), the more release. This applies to the leading notes and resolving notes in the melody.

Glen

In this particular case though, if you're playing through the changes from let's AbMaj7#11 through Bb-7(11), you're playing mostly the same notes (using this modal approach I'm talking about). Think of Db Eb Ab Bb here. So it will sound like the melody is droning while the harmony moves.

If the solo line focuses on these notes, then it seems to me that there's no change in tension, at least for the duration of these 6 bars or so. Particularly if you use quartal types of lines here, there's not enough tension to develop a strong release. Maybe that's the point but if you compare Miles Davis doing modal, you can see that he just starts implying different chords while the base chords stay constant (like So What). Here in this tune, it's sort of a reverse. The chords are moving but the solo notes are not moving as much -- I'm talking about using common tones here.

Now I have a Uri Caine version of this (uptempo as I said earlier). I think he may handled the tension and release by going outside (exact opposite of using common tones). I have to listen to it again.

My approach has not been to focus on common tones. At least in the first recording. I'm actually following the harmony. I'm just deliberating the different approaches here.

Glen, are you saying that even if the common tones are played that their function within the chord changes their tension level (even if they're just being repeated)?

I know it is an oversimplification, but if you play the same upper note repeatedly, for example, and change the chord below as you repeat, it will either create more dissonance or less dissonance, depending. Also, if I play an inverted chord of the same name, basically same notes, it will have a more dissonant or consonant sound as well.

+1

So, even though the melody note choices for two or three chords may be identical, or close to it, once the harmony changes the tension and resolution take care of themselves. Maybe think back to the Mary Had a Little Lamb exercise and how the melody was perceived differently when the backing chords were subbed.

I understand the oversimplification though because by definition, avoiding some chord tones means you're not stating the chord at its maximum quality and thus you're introducing vagueness (typically reducing the tension and the release).

But as I tried it on the piano earlier, I can see that it depends on the progression. It looks like sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

It sounds a bit like I'm trying to leave my premise of the melody implying the harmony strongly, but I'm thinking only for short periods.

Hi everyone,

I've got a question for all that have participated in this thread so far:

What have you learned by posting and discussing Nef here? Any insights into the tune? Into yourselves?

I'll go first: So far, I've realized that the more I have to clarify myself the more I have to look at the tune in the way I'm trying to describe it. Such as, if I'm giving a suggestion about why the b9 HAS to be in the Gm7b5 chord I go back to the piano and see what it is I'm really trying to say, then try some different things to either prove myself wrong, or to support what I thought was right.
Also I've noticed that in preparation to post the tune again I realize that even though this is supposed to be a workshop of sorts, I'm trying to make damn sure that I sound as good as possible.
As well, I've taken to heart Tom's idea about groove, and really tried to learn the tune to the point to make the ideas sit in the groove well.

From hearing others, I hear many of the same stumbling blocks that I've encountered, and thought I overcame, but to find that I will still stumble in some way until I really understand what it is that caused the awkward sound.

I'm also happy to hear others' voicings and chord choices, and to see what they have found most important to emphasize, or what they decided they could change.

One thing that I wish for, though, is more criticism (constructive of course) of what others think that I should try or think about to enhance my playing. I think everyone is qualified to do that because we can all now bring our own experience of learning this piece to the table.

So, in preparation for a few more versions of Nef (at least from me) I'm hoping thus far that I'm not the only one benefitting from all of this.

Well?

Oh, and lurkers, any insights from the outside are welcome, too. We were all lurkers once...

Re tension and release:

One thing that I've just found for me is that the tension builds up to the exact middle of the piece (Eb7#11 to the E chord, bars 8 and 9) and then slowly resolves down again. At least that's how I was approaching it today. So for me, all the other tensions and stable areas are secondary to this one (at least at the time of this writing), and it's made the map of the piece easier to see.

Interesting. I just realized that in my it is Eb7#11(b9). So an A7 tritone sub.

So if you think of it as | A7 E | it's like | IV7 I | instead of | V I |. You see why I have a problem with the tensions and release? It's hard to hear a peak.

Scep, this has been an incredibly helpful workshop. Even just overnight, I've improved on this almost 100%. I was almost ready to record again.

It's been quite a learning experience and I would do it again on another difficult tune. I think my ears will react differently now just from the deep deep search for a connection between chords that most of us probably will not normally find.

Seriously, I'm ready to attack Giant Steps after this. At least that has lots of ii-V's.

I think others should give it a try and not shoot for a finished product. Because in the end it doesn't matter. A month from now, I believe I'll be playing this as comfortably as ATTYA. But at the moment, the struggle itself is a wonderful experience.

Especially if you stick to the actual unsimplified changes (of whatever version), you're really forced to deeply understand the harmony. I do approach other tunes differently already. I'm not sure what's happening yet but it's like I'm finding new melodies.

Excellent commentary!

It's been a bit of a mind-bender trying to put some type of cohesive sound to Nef. Abstraction in this regard is new ground.

Could it be I have a short attention span, don't care for the piece that much to spend all this time on it, or could understand how to approach it? It's a combo plate.

One thing's for sure, the exercise's been genuinely well-received. I appreciate the expertise, suggestion, demonstration, entertainment, and good sound.

C-min Blooze
http://www.box.net/shared/bl7v66o2gu

Glen

I had a nice lesson today and we worked on both Nef and GBPPH. GBPPH was pretty straightforward and basically my teacher was commenting on my reharm and he likes what I did.

Now to Nef -- he wanted me to play it as a slow ballad and I actually played it reasonably well for him which was good. Shows how much effort I've put into this. But he really went back to the original changes with Dbsus. We did rework a lot of the voicings to Herbie versions.

When I heard him play this, I really had a fresh view of this tune. He played it very simply with beautiful melodies and no streams of 16ths at all. After hearing that, it shows that we are under-appreciating this tune.

He actually commented about how I made great choices learning Nef and GBPPH (Thanks 7 ).

So for my actual lessons, I will continue to work with Nef.

Hey Scep, my teacher played this exactly as I thought. No Ab here. It was all melody and chord tones highlighting the harmony, kind of like I thought I was approaching it. Very strict with that as I would have expected.

However, he made me use the chords with Dbsus. I realize now that the original changes (I used New Real Book) had better extensions indicated and the harmony sounds different to me because of it. He did change some of the chords though. And also validated the fact that Herbie was changing some of the chords at different parts (explaining the different versions).

Another observation was that he didn't swing it and relied on a strong quarter note pulse as the driver.

And by slowing it down for me, the tune actually is acquiring a sort of simplicity.

Once I re-memorize these changes (some of it required a change of applicable scale), I'll record it again. I think the answer that I found here for me is that it is best not to over-play (which was what Tom said).

Yes, In the original recording, the repeated melody with no improvisation by the horns gave me the impression of a minimalist intent by MD and WS.

And how did he play that Dbsus? with a Gb in there, or as an Eb over Db chord? Or...? I think I've been approaching it as the latter. I'm not sure how I'd think of the Gb unless as a precursor to the F# in the C7#11 chord.

In any case I'll have to go back and listen, but I don't recall a Gb in that chord. For some reason I thought HH did two versions of fourths, one as C F Bb, and the other as G C F, and in both cases they have the 3rd in there. Now I'm confused.

Scep, definitely a Gb.

I'm now playing it:

Db Gb C F Bb

Like two unrelated quartal voicings. Obviously the scale changes too.

There were other things that changed how I was doing it and altered the emphasis of the solo. For example near the end, instead of E7sus, he made sure I voiced it E9Sus.

He did accept that the last few chords could be varied (Eb7#11 etc. since it was stated as A7b9(b13) in the latest Real Book.

One thing that was clearer to me, and it was natural to you guys was that he played a lot of the bass notes lower than I was doing it. Actually to be honest, I had a stack of real books on the lower part of the keyboard so I covered up the keyboard. That probably discouraged me from going low.

In any case, since a lot of his voicings were quite low, I was noticing how light his touch was on the LH. Something easy on my Steinway, but extraordinarily difficult on the Yammie P-155. Next time I look for a new keyboard, I'm going to focus on the lower register.

In any case, he played this quite pianistically and spread out high and low so I'm not sure he had a problem with the key not being suitable for piano.

Last night, I worked on Nef on my girlfriend's piano. Too bad no recorder was present for the final arrangement, because previous trials were a complete disaster, and I finally landed on an arrangement that worked pretty well.

For this piece of music, how do you maintain any sort of consistency? Sometimes it makes sense, (connectedness of chords/melody), and other times it is enough to make one's blood curdle. Help! How do folks like Cecil Taylor do it?

Glen

Nef is like the serial killer who lived next door, unfortunately. You THOUGHT you knew him...



Is this a serious question? The NY guy that plays so outside all the time that nothing is recognizable, even when he is just humming the melody to One Note Samba?
Is there another Cecil Taylor, or is he playing differently now?


I thought I was doing pretty good on Nef, and I do like how I've progressed, but take a listen to my latest version to see how things have changed. If you can manage to the end I cover some different approaches along the way.
Some things you'll here: backbeat comping evolving to downbeat comping, melody transposed with static harm, and also starting in another key.
Oh, and as for Red Dot Syndrome, yes, I still screw up. This just suggests to me that I really don't know what I think I know to the degree that I should.

http://www.box.net/shared/qqmty9zi2c
It's the one labelled Nefertiti mar 23
Criticisms welcomed. Seriously, bring them on, please!

Scep - that was a good one! I like the simple left-hand structure and consistently noticeable, simple beat. It is clear you are connecting with the music, delivering your own expression. This is a great example of what can be done with a repeated melody line. From 3:30 on you really open up, show intensity, then a sense of calm in an already dissonant structure, then back again - love the circularity of your arrangement that matches the circularity of the piece.

Yes, Nef is an ever-elusive, moving target - I like your analogy. The Cecil Taylor comment was a rhetorical question...;)

From your latest rendition, it is motivation for me to get back in front of the keyboard with Nef.

Glen

Hey Sceptical, that is sounding really good. You are finding plenty of interesting stuff to play on that difficult sequence, and you have really made it sound your own which is the most any of us can hope to do.
I know you want criticism but it's difficult to find something to say when there is nothing which is wrong. If I had to find one thing that would have improved it for me I would say that maybe you stated the tune a few too many times. I felt you could have kind of moved away from it more and then just brought it back towards the end. Yours was more like a set of variations, which is also an interesting way to play.
All in all it goes to show how creative you can get when you get really inside a tune. Great job.

Thanks Glen and Dave!

But come on now...how about "Are you really sure about those transition bars between 8 and 9? Because it always sounds vague, where the surrounding stuff sounds more stable. It is especially evident you don't really know this point because when you changed keys, you also changed the chord there to make it easier at one point."

Or "Be careful not to speed up. Do you know why you do it?" "Sometimes your fast runs tend to be out of sync..."

And BB, the melody repetition--it was my way of reassuring myself what key I was in again because I took the melody in three places (Db, Ab, Eb I believe, I'll have to check again), and I tried to avoid confusing myself. So, ya, unless my intent was to be like the original Nef recording, which was all just melody, then I may want to look at that again.

So people, put aside your kindness! I mean, I like it and all, but it just feeds my ego at the expense of distracting me from further work to be done. Also, it keeps me honest. Sometimes if I do something that others don't catch (remember talking about rhythm changes BB?) and they either think it is cool or whatever, but I don't like, then I feel like I've fooled people, and in doing so fooled myself into believing I'm better than I am.

Scep,
The piece is not well-enough under my fingers to provide much of a detailed critique - I happen to like your style, to boot!

You are you own best critic here...I, too, have a tendency to get louder when I speed up, lose my sense of tempo.

It also might be perhaps that my general lack of experience with relatively non-melodic tunes from that era leaves me with more questions than comments. I've never been shown even what to look for when it comes to improvising on music from that free-form, bebop, cool and modal jazz era.

As a result, I rather enjoyed the repetition of the melody theme winding through the piece and how you worked your way around it.

Perhaps trying to syncopate the bass-line with the right-hand melody? There is no way I can do that at this point with this piece, but it seems like that would be another option for you. Keep 'em coming, Scep!

Glen

Wonderful job Scep! Totally new style here.

I can totally hear the harmony in your solo. Much more defined now (something I shoot for so I listen to it).

Now what I was surprised about was even with that soft LH comping that suggests a ballad, you're actually playing this very uptempo (for this tune). It felt like 170bpm maybe. But the interesting thing is that it felt like half time, with the rhythm you were using. It works and I like the result.

Downbeat comping works for this tune. In fact that's how I'm evolving on this myself.

The effect of this version is very impressionistic. Similar to Beeboss's version. The main difference being that you're running through the changes twice as fast. That's pretty good that you kept up with that. It shows your familiarity with this tune after a month.

As critique, if you remember, we keep talking about horizontal playing. Seeing that you're playing fast here, you can actually have more opportunity to hold the notes over the barline. I think that kind of variation will sound good. And now I realize that long melody notes in the solo are in keeping with the original, at least I think some should be in the mix.

Nice round here buddy!