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#1354009 - 01/20/10 10:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Interesting sounds wee... I tend to use the augmented triad as a chord rather than arpeggio. Was trying out some Major/minor sounds today. Found this chord that I really liked, C Eb G B / F Bb D , best used as a C-7th chord but with the b7 and 7 together, adds some spice to it.

I was working on some melodies where your switch from major to minor and back, basically all 12 tones can be used, but you are working from a tonal centre. I wish I could post some stuff up, as soon as I am able to record I will.


Hey -- that's like My Funny Valentine smile
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#1354020 - 01/20/10 10:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Cool Barb! Making good progress!

Thanks, Jazzwee. The Aebersold tracks are helping me to improvise with the ballads in my repertoire. I mix back and forth a couple of measures of melody, then some improvisation. I am getting braver about all this. smile
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#1354027 - 01/20/10 11:09 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
beeboss Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb


beeboss -- I love your suggestion to take little patterns and play over the playalongs. So, I went a step further and listened to some music on Pandora to see if something would sound interesting.



Hi Barb, yes thats the way to do it. It is so easy to find an idea to try out, and if you do a few new ones every day pretty soon you have a large pool of ideas to dip into at any moment. Hopefully it can make practicing more interesting as well.
Often when I listen to music I try to remember ideas which I like the sound of to experiment with later.
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#1354456 - 01/20/10 09:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Interesting sounds wee... I tend to use the augmented triad as a chord rather than arpeggio. Was trying out some Major/minor sounds today. Found this chord that I really liked, C Eb G B / F Bb D , best used as a C-7th chord but with the b7 and 7 together, adds some spice to it.

I was working on some melodies where your switch from major to minor and back, basically all 12 tones can be used, but you are working from a tonal centre. I wish I could post some stuff up, as soon as I am able to record I will.


Hey -- that's like My Funny Valentine smile


hey Wee, I was thinking more like from C major to C minor, parallel. Valentine is from C - to Eb major, which basically is the same key, just relative.

Have you heard of Only the Lonely by Frank Sinatra? Jarrett did a nice cover of it. That's a tune where the melody has that shift.

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#1354547 - 01/21/10 01:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
jazzwee Offline
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Wiz, no the chords of Funny valentine starts with Cmin/maj7 | Cm7 | Cm6 | AbMaj7 | ...

It's probably the most remembered Cmin/maj tune...
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#1354556 - 01/21/10 01:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Today I was cranking on Matrix again, getting it to tempo. I was exhausted after practice! The good news is that with the finger breaking stuff on this fast tune, you really have to focus on relaxation or you cannot play it. I'm not trying to overstress myself so I'm just doing 200bpm, which is fast enough to get a gist of the tempo. But the real tune is much faster. Maybe 240bpm. I didn't really time it.

It's not really the tempo that's the problem so much as I can play it faster, but I cannot remember the lines that fast. I end up pausing trying to remember where I am. And gosh no, I will not sight read this sucker. I have it committed to memory.

Tomorrow I play this in front of my teacher so we'll see.

As I worked on Matrix, I noticed another symmetrical Chick pattern that I was able to practice...

In the key of C:
Ascending:
G C D G (5 1 9 5 )

The nice thing about this pattern is that it works on just about every chord other than half-diminished. So it requires no thought to sneak into a line. Being symmetrical, it is really easy to remember. Chick arpeggiates this down then up again.

Now although it seems like a non-interesting pattern because of the chord tones, it's actually a stack of 2 fourths a step apart. So when played linearly it gives a vague tonality.
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#1354729 - 01/21/10 11:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb

It took only a minute listening to Eric Reed improvising to "I Should Care". I picked out a couple of little ideas of his and played along with my Jamey Aebersold 2-5-1 backing track.

Below are the results with a few little bloopers included. grin

http://www.box.net/shared/74uevai4u6




Nice work Barb! thumb You got in the swing there!
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#1354760 - 01/21/10 11:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: ten left thumbs]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hey -- thanks TLT. I am having fun taking baby steps!
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#1354844 - 01/21/10 02:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jotur Online   blank
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Registered: 09/16/06
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Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Swingin' Barb - I'm glad that, since I'm breaking my vow to stay off PW until I get work done, that I stopped in here. Great recording! I listened a couple of times thru - you are getting to be a pro -

Cathy
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#1354964 - 01/21/10 05:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jotur]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: jotur
I listened a couple of times thru - you are getting to be a pro - Cathy

Cathy - You are sweet! But, I am trying not to laugh too hysterically. Pro is not quite the right word here. grin Let's just say I am getting to be a lot braver about posting this sort of stuff.

Barb
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#1355024 - 01/21/10 07:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
wow Barb, I bet you know that pattern pretty well now!!

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#1355056 - 01/21/10 08:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: So. California
So, I had a lesson today and I had get a handle on 'Matrix'. Screwed up the rhythm so badly that it's back to the drawing board.

Remember that poster that said, "No Metronome and No Counting"....well that's my problem. I had to be reminded that Chick Corea is a DRUMMER smile

The consolation is that I got the notes right...
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#1355097 - 01/21/10 09:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
The consolation is that I got the notes right...

thumb

The drawing board is a good place to visit. How else do we improve? wink
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#1355100 - 01/21/10 10:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
CMohr Offline

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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
Hey Barb, loved your "I should Care" recording! Really nice!

And Jazzwee, thanks for the (5-1-9-5) tip! I've tried adding it into what I'm doing with some standard ballads - it works really well! I'm still a real newbie with the jazz and any/all tips I can glean from others are real eye-openers.
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#1355149 - 01/21/10 11:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: CMohr]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: So. California
CMohr, glad to know you're paying attention. There's a lot of these so I'm only noting the ones new to me. I'll make sure to be more specific next time.

The nice thing about these moveable shapes though is that you can play it on multiple chords so it can come automatically to a hand position. Handy for filling in. Just don't forget the basics: in the end, it's the chord tones that must dominate (1,3,5,7). So you should have mastered all your arpeggios and inversions thereof. smile
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#1355157 - 01/21/10 11:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
The consolation is that I got the notes right...

thumb

The drawing board is a good place to visit. How else do we improve? wink


I came really ready because I knew all the notes -- so I was overconfident. Busted my ego fast... But that's how it goes. I usually conquer the deficiency eventually and it seems like a little event later. Maybe that's why my teacher always focuses on a weakness. Never worries about things you already know to do. Always focusing on what seems the strongest weakness at any time.

In this case, I'm very poor at counting out the rhythm when reading the music. Well I hate reading music, period. And 'Matrix' is like reading Classical --- lots of notes.

A confession: Rather than count the rhythm, all these years, I just listen and copy the recording. Well I wasn't given that chance today. So I'm finally caught smile
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#1355237 - 01/22/10 01:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Ah - back to counting. Easier said than done. wink
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#1355778 - 01/22/10 07:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: ten left thumbs]
beeboss Online   content
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1198
Loc: uk south
I was just learning a tune today and thought I would record it to see how it sounds. It has a few examples of the things I mentioned in my last posts, moving upper extensions etc
Anyway, here it is... I got it bad and that ain't good

http://www.divshare.com/download/10248758-954

I find I learn a real lot through recording and then listening back to find out which bits work and which don't, and where the bad bits are. It always amazes me how obvious this is listening back and how easy to miss when playing.
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#1355800 - 01/22/10 08:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: So. California
That's a beautiful tune Dave thumb Is that your idea of 'bad'? grin Doesn't look like you have far to go.

I really liked your solo lines. Very nice melodic snippets there. I was trying to look for those moving upper extensions but I may have heard it only once. Maybe you can point it out.

BTW - these types of tunes are hard for me because the bass player isn't setting time (no quarter note pulse) so I couldn't catch the groove from the Rhythm section.

It's great that you posted stuff that's unfinished. That's really in the spirit of this thread. I would really be interested to hear how you progress with this.
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#1355959 - 01/23/10 12:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Rhythm section? Wasn't that computer midi stuff? If not, you'd better get that drummer some brush lessons, and new cymbals. It's pretty hard to program swing (unless you have Finale).

Beeboss, you've got some great stuff happening there. I like the inner voice falling lines (13, b13, 9 stuff). Nice extensions at the end of the B section, too.

So when you are soloing, I notice that your left hand seems to play lots of closed voicings, ie the comp is only the left hand and the solo is completely the RH. Was that just my perception or do you also do two hand voicings while soloing?

I'm currently trying to think of myself as having three hands rather than two. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about?
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#1355995 - 01/23/10 02:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: So. California
Sceptical, I just assumed it was an Aeborsold Play-Along but the Rhythm was too complex for a normal person using Aeborsold. I tried counting to it and there were such huge gaps with no bass or drum.

Re: Three hands -- I was taught to do that on the Head. The fuller the sound the better. But when soloing in a combo, to not get in the way of the RH, leave the LH sparse. In fact, my teacher would play the entire tune without a LH, striving to sound like a horn player.

Solo piano and ballads, you've got more leeway with two hands and it's really necessary.

When I first learned Jazz, my first teacher just told me to do Rootless LH for everything. What a mistake. In my AL Thread, I teach two handed voicings before I get into rootless.

Now I listen to Brad Mehldau and I really hear three hands! Even when soloing. He's got those pair of thumbs busy on Ostinatos smile
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#1356011 - 01/23/10 02:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Sceptical, I just assumed it was an Aeborsold Play-Along but the Rhythm was too complex for a normal person using Aeborsold. I tried counting to it and there were such huge gaps with no bass or drum.

I thought it was something homespun myself. Beeboss will tell soon...

Originally Posted By: jazzwee


Re: Three hands -- I was taught to do that on the Head. The fuller the sound the better. But when soloing in a combo, to not get in the way of the RH, leave the LH sparse. In fact, my teacher would play the entire tune without a LH, striving to sound like a horn player.

Now this is what I'm trying to avoid. We aren't horn players. I've played as one long enough now and am getting tired of letting most of my fingers just sit there and be idle. I'm not saying that there isn't a time and place for fast runs, but I think in my case I'm starting to prefer soloing with fingers 345 and letting 1 and 2 on the RH have their own voice with the LH 1. We'll see if I get very far with that.
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

When I first learned Jazz, my first teacher just told me to do Rootless LH for everything. What a mistake. In my AL Thread, I teach two handed voicings before I get into rootless.

Mistake? Why? Did it make it harder to learn how the chords worked or just make it sound odd when playing solo piano?

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Now I listen to Brad Mehldau and I really hear three hands! Even when soloing. He's got those pair of thumbs busy on Ostinatos smile

Ya, there is that thing, but I'm thinking more of how the 1 and 2 on both hands have the inner voice, and inner lines and leaving the outer hands to do more work. Also, if I get too comfortable my hands tend to shrink to voicings that may only span a 7th, whereas if I challenge myself to open up the occassional voicing I find a cleaner more spacious sound that I hear from guitarists and string sections.
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#1356015 - 01/23/10 02:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
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sceptical, my teacher is a very strong stylist (and he's known for that) and teaches the concept that one should "play piano like a horn". BTW - if you're wondering where this concept came from, it was from Madame Chaloff, who taught, among others: Keith Jarrett, Herbie Hancock, Kenny Werner, etc.

So his focus is to really concentrate on creating a recognizable tone and well thought out and VERY LEGATO lines. Certainly I can hear this applied by the above players. Combined with this is that every note has intent and purpose and not from random noodling.

Now this is not to say that one is to solo with a single hand, since you can play faster lines combining two hands. But as far as comping is concerned, Brad Melhdau's thumb actions aside, certainly it precludes upper register comping which would interfer with the stronger volume of the solo lines right?
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#1356017 - 01/23/10 02:46 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
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But let's make sure we distinguish here from Comping Voicings vs. Soloing. The best voicings of course are two-handed.
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#1356023 - 01/23/10 03:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

So his focus is to really concentrate on creating a recognizable tone and well thought out and VERY LEGATO lines. Certainly I can hear this applied by the above players. Combined with this is that every note has intent and purpose and not from random noodling.

No, random noodling is bad. Agreed. And I also agree about the legato quality of horn playing. But I'm not talking about that. See below.
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Now this is not to say that one is to solo with a single hand, since you can play faster lines combining two hands. But as far as comping is concerned, Brad Melhdau's thumb actions aside, certainly it precludes upper register comping which would interfer with the stronger volume of the solo lines right?

This I'm not so sure about. Yes, at times you want a clear separation, but what I'm starting to explore is the idea of having the solo line not be so apart from the rest of the comping. When comping with horn players and singers you'll mostly be playing in the same range as them, and sometimes above, sometimes below. So I'm trying to have the hands wider now, and include the solo line at the top, but much closer to the rest of the voices. This also forces me to think about the voicings as individual parts, rather than a chord. It also slows me down so I don't fire off the rapid scales and patterns that I've used for a bit too long. Who knows if what I'm suggesting will work for anyone (me included), but I can't see the harm in trying it. I'm sure I'm not the only one to think this way. I just haven't listened to enough players to find any examples of what I'm talking about exactly. We'll see.

Again, I'll try to post an example of what I'm trying these days.
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#1356028 - 01/23/10 03:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: So. California
Sounds like you're talking more of counterpoint...

I don't know if this is connected but another poster here, Dave Solazzo, and I have this long term project and that is to solo with two hands. So when I'm practicing to play like this (which is very hard due to my much weaker left hand), I have to really think of the lines much differently.

Now my teacher is aware that I'm working on this and this doesn't conflict necessarily with the 'horn' concept although obviously one now has to think of a 'horn section'.

I've tried posting attempts at this a few times but the problem is that my LH is technically deficient. So everyday, I've been doing more with it, playing solos with just the LH alone.

Anyway, when the two hands are combined to create a solo, you really do stop thinking of chords (though harmony though is still clear in my head).

I really want to perfect this style. It's difficult to be 'swingy' doing this because there tends to be downbeat synchronization between the hands, I've noticed.

If I tried this again now, I would find myself putting the LH in a more supporting role. I'm not near a point where the two hands can be equal. However, I'm happy to say, that I can now play eighth note lines with the LH. That's a major improvement from the previous quarter notes it used to play (bass lines).

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#1356070 - 01/23/10 05:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1198
Loc: uk south
The backing track was midi drums with me playing bass, just a one take job so its rough. I try to do my own backings rather than aebersold, that way I get to play the tunes I want in the key I want at the speed I want with the changes I want.
It is hard to follow the time in this one, probably why its a bit loose at times. I quite like that though.
Not sure how I will progress with it as I expect I will pactice a different tune today.Maybe I will post another.

Sceptical, yes you are right that my LH is playing mostly closed voicings, I don't often do much block chord stuff, at least not in melodic improvisation mode. I would use fuller voicings if playing solo piano though. I find it hard to play anything interesting with block chords.
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#1356283 - 01/23/10 12:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: So. California
beeboss, that is the limitation of aebersold. Often it's too slow or sometimes some tune is styled as Bossa when I want swing. I tried Band-in-the-Box with RealDrums so that was helpful at one point. But the Bass sucked so now I hardly ever do anything other than with a metronome. Just too much work sometimes.

It's good you can make your own.

It's really great to see everyone posting learning stages. We all get to learn together. By all means, post whatever new thing you're practicing.
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#1356300 - 01/23/10 12:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: So. California
My next phase is Rhythmic practice using Matrix as the base. I think it gives a fresh point of view when I sing the Matrix solo at half time or slower just from the transcription. Nuances I think I hear at 250bpm sound much different when played at 125bpm.

This is really helping me listen rhythmically as well. Now I see why my teacher was focused on my ability to read the Rhythm accurately. There's other things to learn here related to rhythmic displacement.

This truly is such advanced material and Chick's genius is just mind boggling. To think that this was being created on the fly is just inconceivable. It does take some deep digging though to appreciate this genius. It isn't that obvious at first glance.

As a side effect to playing Matrix, my dexterity and technique have improved significantly too. It seems like I overcame another layer of tension and speed picked up. Even indirectly, it's already impacted my solos and I haven't tried to memorize licks or anything. I just observe his note choices against the underlying harmony (or more difficult to ascertain --- his implied harmony).
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#1356738 - 01/23/10 11:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Jazzwee, I might have missed this part, but did you transcribe Matrix, or where did you get it from?
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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Player Piano Bellows Question
by UnrightTooner
09/02/14 09:40 AM
do you memorize a piece when you learn to play it?
by Peter071
09/02/14 06:13 AM
Which classical (piano) music may I like?
by Stefo
09/02/14 05:50 AM
When to compose?
by noobpianist90
09/02/14 04:16 AM
First Recordings on the New Steinway!
by Markarian
09/02/14 04:11 AM
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