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#1501503 - 08/23/10 11:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee


So based on your approach, it would have to practice comping in precise time while simplifying the RH. So it get's to be in the subconscious first.


Thats what I mean about playing on something simple, so the right hand can do not much and you can give the rhythm of the LH comping virtually your entire concentration. Obviously it has to be exactly in time.
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#1501958 - 08/23/10 09:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
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Yeah, your practical advice is really useful Dave B. When you said to practise playing the LH chord on each quaver, does that mean I play the LH chord 8 times for each measure – and then figure out which of the 8 sounds best ?

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#1501964 - 08/23/10 09:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
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Custard, you actually end playing only one or two beats of it if you're playing stacatto style (per Bar). I was just doing this today and I realize I mix up. Like I break it up and play non-stacatto every few times. Often I don't think about it and it's based on the space in the RH line.

I believe in the AL Thread, I had a sample there where I played 1 and 2+ which is a Charleston Rhythm. But I don't always play 2 per bar. That's probably a base starting point. Playing at random beats is harder to keep time with and you'd have to work to that. At that point, it's more by feel on how it interacts with the RH.
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#1502123 - 08/24/10 06:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Yeah, your practical advice is really useful Dave B. When you said to practise playing the LH chord on each quaver, does that mean I play the LH chord 8 times for each measure – and then figure out which of the 8 sounds best ?


No, not on all 8 quavers in the same bar. Try putting the chord on just 1+ for example for a whole sequence or until it feels easy, then try on 2+ etc. When you have gone through all 8 possibilities then try the pairs that JW is talking about.
Listen to where the great players place their chords and then try and do likewise. If you notice Jarrett putting his chords on 4+ and 2+ then try it and see if you can do anything with it.
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#1502124 - 08/24/10 06:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
beeboss Offline
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Here is a bit of what I was practicing yesterday - Doxy.
I was trying to get the LH nice and crisp, and trying not to overuse it.


http://www.divshare.com/download/12362618-d89
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#1502145 - 08/24/10 07:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
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Wow who is playing this – Dave McKenna ? Thanks Dave B and JW, this is complex for me, I really belong to the non-advanced thread, but I like talking jazz with anyone who will help me. When I come back from holidays in a month, I’m going to play around with my LH a lot.

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#1502250 - 08/24/10 11:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
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Beeboss, with your playing you really should be drawing a crowd at your jazz gigs. Your playing is beyond your typical pro doing casuals.

And if we ever argue about your harmonic choices when soloing, let me just say that your note choices so clearly state the harmony (on downbeats) that my teacher would claim you as a bright example of that. smile

BTW - I was practicing that LH thing yesterday just trying to maintain perfect time and I really need a metronome to do this right. I didn't have one yesterday and I could feel myself waver. I was trying to just feel the beat that's established with the RH 1/8's. Having a precise LH is definitely a skill that is dragging behind on my end.
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#1502290 - 08/24/10 12:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
nice job beeboss! Swingin'.

I'm trying to play the Wind now, that KJ song I posted up before. Melody is no problem but harmony shifts around, so I'm working on that.

I don't transcribe the "normal" way, hearing it note for note.

I work out the melody first, then work on chords on my own. Lots of experimenting.

It's in C-, then Ab+, G+, then back to C-.

Who wants to try the head and compare? Help me out with the harmony guys!

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#1502832 - 08/25/10 06:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
beeboss Offline
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Loc: uk south
Thanks JW, although you don't need to flatter me so much. I was only posting that as an example of LH staccato chords.

Wiz, maybe it is easier to work out the harmonic progression from the Chet version, probably it is less abstract.
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#1502971 - 08/25/10 12:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Not even flattery Beeboss. I was just stating a general fact and not just with this tune. That's why I ought to really pay attention to your intense practice strategy.

Just yesterday I was working on doing comping with 4+ 2+. That was a little new to me. It's the most swinging comping I've ever done and more so than the Charleston comp.

It was hard to do so I just kept it simple. I just did some blues chords on the LH and an ostinato on the RH and repeated the comping on the LH over and over. This will take a long time to sink in. It was hard to always get the 4+. Many a time, I forget and do a 1 instead. But it's probably ok to mix it up too right? I'm not sure because I don't know what it sounds like to a listener.

For some reason though 4+ is great for keeping the beat going.
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#1502981 - 08/25/10 12:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
You've got to be comfortable putting the LH on any place in the bar, but it is fine tomix it up.
Are you trying it with a play along or metronome? I think play along is best because then it is less boring so you can keep at it for a good while. I am not sure an ostinato in the RH is a good idea because in a real solo that is not what you would be doing. Just really simple but varied phrases would be best.
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#1502986 - 08/25/10 12:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I was just using a metronome. The ostinato was just a baby step since I couldn't easily identify the 4+ and 2+. When I just did even simple solo's I really couldn't easily hear initially when to hit 4+. As you can imagine, it's easy if there's a beat 1 on the RH.

But it must have helped because even without a piano, I can hear the comp now in my head while I imagine a solo in the RH.

This is one of my biggest weaknesses because my teacher never focused on this at all. He told me that in this style of comping, it's the RH that keeps the time. The problem is that my LH time wavers because I'm not hearing the comp as part of the beat.
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#1502996 - 08/25/10 01:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 354
Listen to Red Garland he does the 4+, 2+ all the time.

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#1503090 - 08/25/10 04:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Good tip Klink. I actually listened to a lot of Garland and then even while I was driving I was hearing him with Miles Davis.

So I heard him do a consistent 1+ on one tune. A 4+ 2+ on another, And then a 1 +2. And then when he's comping for another soloist it was all the above.

This is great! I like it when I find something specific to work on.

Seeing that any upbeat can work, I just practiced that a moment ago. It is a lot easier to just think of any upbeat. I think concentrating on this seems to improve my time.
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#1503813 - 08/26/10 07:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Beeboss, I guess it's just step by step. Last night, I was just soloing (although just simple blues), doing this comping. Might take a couple more weeks to get the LH more stable but it's getting there.
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#1504074 - 08/27/10 05:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
JW, don't be fooled, there is nothing simple about playing a blues well. I look forward to the day when I can do it.
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#1504081 - 08/27/10 06:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: beeboss
JW, don't be fooled, there is nothing simple about playing a blues well. I look forward to the day when I can do it.


You mean like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcFnxi3bI4w

"I got me da blues!"

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#1504110 - 08/27/10 08:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz

You mean like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcFnxi3bI4w

"I got me da blues!"


well yes...

or like Wynton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEAMPlaawTQ

or McCoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBwuwZh6G6g

or Bud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7G_XQ7vEo4
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#1504118 - 08/27/10 08:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Interesting Dave B. Would you say Wynton’s and Bud’s blues melodies are harmonic whereas McCoy's blues sound is more modal ?

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#1504127 - 08/27/10 08:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Certainly McCoy has a more modern sound.
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#1504167 - 08/27/10 10:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
JW, don't be fooled, there is nothing simple about playing a blues well. I look forward to the day when I can do it.


LOL! Is anything ever easy? But at least you don't lose yourself in the form. smile

Now I don't consider myself particularly good at blues but certainly all of you guys who don't post music here could handle some version of the blues...Wiz?

Glen posted a lot of blues.
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#1504216 - 08/27/10 11:23 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873

I couldn't play the blues to save my life. I can't recall Miles Davis or Bill Evans playing alot of the blues, but I might be wrong.

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#1504296 - 08/27/10 01:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
LOL smile I remember the first couple of years I learned Jazz, it was Blues, Blues, Blues. LH walking bass on Bb, F, G, D, C blues. Rootless 13th chords. ii-V modifications on Blues progressions. Tons of Blues licks like you wouldn't believe. Memorized blues solos. Yada-yada-yada. So my teacher then believed that the way to learn Jazz was via the blues.

Well, I think Blues is the way to learn Blues and if you do the above, your Jazz playing sounds like the blues. So I haven't played Blues much in years.

But I did enough of it so I wonder if anything sunk in? smile Maybe I'll give it a try.

I don't know the answer to your question Wiz, since we don't know what these guys practiced, but I know that I haven't done Blues with my current teacher hardly at all. I think once at the very beginning.
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#1504338 - 08/27/10 02:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873

I remember looking at a blues chart and it was all V7 chords, then I would look at a lead sheet and wonder why it was all 2-5-1!! So they weren't there in any of the songs I played when I first learned jazz.

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#1504355 - 08/27/10 03:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Don't limit yourself Wiz. Jazz isn't single faceted. I don't believe now that Blues is the end-all to jazz but it's definitely an important piece.

And there really is a "Jazz Blues" and it doesn't sound anything like regular slow Guitar blues. For one, it's played pretty fast.

When you realize that Coltrane and Chick did a lot of Blues that don't even sound like Blues then you can really take it to the next level. Listen to Chick do 'Matrix' which is almost unrecognizable as Blues. The harmony lessons abound in there.

Take the single I7-IV7-V7 structure. Not only would Chick do subs here (think of diminished cycle), but would also there's the question of where is the release chord? They're all dominants (tension) chords after all. But when do they treat these dominants as a Tonic chord? (They do). Or basic questions like what can you play over a Dominant? (Everything?)

I think this alone can be a discussion.

I really think we can all do blues next. No one has to learn the tune. We just play it. Heck, I'm game even when I know I'm no blues king smile
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#1504452 - 08/27/10 06:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
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Loc: Sydney
Listen to all the blues that Chet uses in his solo, he is a good one to study, I find him relatively easy to follow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgn7VfXH2GY

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#1504994 - 08/28/10 07:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
KlinkKlonk Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 354
For you lot that have learned Matrix. Have you tried to make it a part of your playing? It kinda doesn't blend in too well with the bop tradition. As I see it you'd have to learn a great deal of pents and quartals to make it work..

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#1505101 - 08/28/10 11:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk
For you lot that have learned Matrix. Have you tried to make it a part of your playing? It kinda doesn't blend in too well with the bop tradition. As I see it you'd have to learn a great deal of pents and quartals to make it work..


You're absolutely right. It's a very modern sound and I see a tiny little line here and there that comes from Chick but it's pretty hard to 'hear'. If you can't hear it well it's hard to apply. Remember he's not just playing pentatonics and quartals on the stated chord. So you have to think of it with the sub too.

I think my ears need to develop (a lot) further to even really hear what's going on. I know it in theory and the transcription exists. But it's not enough.

Just imagine that Chick was pretty young when he played that. I can't think of a young player nowadays with a statement to make like Chick and other masters did in those days. Think of Dolpin Dance being created when Herbie was a teen!
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#1505712 - 08/30/10 01:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
I can't recall Miles Davis or Bill Evans playing alot of the blues, but I might be wrong.



Well except for the entire album Kind of Blue.

But I've read that Evans really didn't otherwise excel in playing the blues. I'd suspect the same from Miles too.
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#1505802 - 08/30/10 06:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
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Loc: uk south
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