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#1515821 - 09/15/10 01:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

does the solo express the harmony?


How can you answer that unless you start with a harmony that is to be expressed? But this isn't what you are suggesting as you are defining the harmony by the notes that are actually played. That is circular reasoning.

Suppose the written chord is C7 and Jarrett is playing a D sharp on the first beat, therefore the harmony becomes C7 alt, therefore he is playing a chord tone, therefore he is expressing the harmony. Same applies if he had played a G sharp or an F sharp or a D (that could be C7sharp11) or an A (C13b9) or any note. It isn't the case that the harmony is already there and he is expressing it, rather he is making the harmony with his choice of notes.

So then it comes your turn to improvise - what do you do when you get to C7? You can play any note as they are all chord tones of various dominant chords (or of a sub). Actually you have more choices than if you had picked your note from a scale, which at least only has 7 or 8 possibilities.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

This is my first time to actually look at a Jarret transcription (other than one I did myself) and my teacher said that he does follow this downbeat rule.


What is the downbeat rule? I thought it was playing 1357 of the stated chord (or possibly the higher extentions of the stated chord?) on the 1st and 3rd beats. Is that not what you mean?
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#1515842 - 09/15/10 02:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss

How can you answer that unless you start with a harmony that is to be expressed? But this isn't what you are suggesting as you are defining the harmony by the notes that are actually played. That is circular reasoning.


Fortunately, this is an artistic endeavor and not science so exactness isn't required.

The purpose of trying to find a structure is for the purpose of learning. Abstracting is the appropriate word I suppose.

If we can determine with some predictability that KJ picks notes based on some rule, then we can duplicate the sound. So it 's like extrapolating in social sciences like Economics. We don't know anything for sure but through historical analysis, one gathers that raising prices curtails demand for a product. It's a probability thing.

Here's a pattern for learning. If, as passed to me by word of mouth by my teacher who learned from the original masters, that there appears to be a correlation between strong beats (which really means 1-2-3-4 as explained to me) and the playing of important notes of the intended chord (1357 or appropriate extensions if altered), then I'm able to construct similar lines.

It's just a method of arriving at a vocabulary.

An alternate method is to copy licks all day. Another method is to look for long reoccuring patterns. Another method is to look for repetitions of 4 note cells.

What is being said by most of these book writers and players is that regardless of the method, there's a reoccuring premise and that is that the notes are not random from the scale. They will tend to highlight the harmony. Well that reveals a shortcut to learning does it not?

That's all this is. It doesn't negate other methods by any means. But if correct, it does uncover part of the mystery.

What it does say, if correct, is that a beginner who starts plunking along a random choice of notes from a C scale over a Dm7 may not be achieving the proper result. If anything, this approach really says that Scale vs. Chord is a limited tool and you need more.

This is particularly important to a new player like myself. I don't have 30 years to devote to figuring out something to play. It gives me a method that I can use to practice now.

And apparently, those reading books like Bert's, and Shell Berg's, Hal Galper's etc. are appreciating it.
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#1515978 - 09/15/10 05:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

If we can determine with some predictability that KJ picks notes based on some rule, then we can duplicate the sound.


That would be interesting. I have been studying Jarrett fro 20 years, listened thouroughly to all his albums and transcribed more than 20 of his solos. I am still trying to find a rule that he uses to pick his notes. Well actually that is not true as I have abandoned the search a long time ago when I realized there are no rules that he uses. You cannot 'dulplicate the sound' of Jarrett by application of a rule. If you want to sound like Jarrett the only sensible approach is to attempt to develop the same skill set that Jarrett has. Obviously this is not going to be possible for any of us, but it does lead towards a certain program of study. We can make progress if we head in the right direction.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Here's a pattern for learning. If, as passed to me by word of mouth by my teacher who learned from the original masters, that there appears to be a correlation between strong beats (which really means 1-2-3-4 as explained to me) and the playing of important notes of the intended chord (1357 or appropriate extensions if altered), then I'm able to construct similar lines.


If you mean a statistical correlation that shows that Jarrett plays significantly more 1357 tones on down beats than upbeats, then that would require some hard number crunching to be demonstrated. I suspect that is wrong as I do not believe that Jarrett either studied or approaches music in that way. It is possible that he does that instincively but unless you can define EXACTLY what is and what is not a chord tone then it will forever be impossible to say. If a note BECOMES a chord tone just by virtue of being played (when he plays a D sharp on a C7 chord for example) then any note can be a chord tone so no statistical analysis will be possible and any imagined correlation evaporates into the ether.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

It's just a method of arriving at a vocabulary.


Well if that is all it is then I have no problem with it at all. It may well be a good way to learn regardless whether Jarrett or anyone else actually does improvise in that way. One has to learn to conjugate verbs before one writes poetry. I just do not believe that it is a way that the pros improvise.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

What is being said by most of these book writers and players is that regardless of the method, there's a reoccuring premise and that is that the notes are not random from the scale.


Who said anything about choosing notes RANDOMLY from a scale? I said before that a scale is entirely neutral, it is just a collection a pitches, like a chord. Every one of the chromatic notes has a relationship to both the stated harmony, the implied harmony, to the melody and to the bass line, to the last notes played and to the notes about to be played, etc. Obviously some notes are closer to these references and some are further away. The improviser chooses the note depending on the effect that is wanted at the moment. It is not a random choice regardless what you consider to be the pool of notes from which you choose (a scale or a tetrachord or a 5 note chord or a pentatonoic scale or from the base tonality of the tune or from the tune itself or from a lick that Bill Evans played in 1959).
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#1515997 - 09/15/10 05:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Well thought out response Beeboss, and I will respond further later.

But we already know the 'Bebop scale' exists and this scale causes the chord tones 1-3-5-7's to go on the strong beats. So this alone proves that this is no major innovation and is clearly understood by many. Is it not? Isn't all of this including KJ's playing rooted in Bebop?

I'm just responding to your comment that no one improvises like this. I would imagine that this fact alone constitutes a starting point and basis for this approach.
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#1516073 - 09/15/10 07:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 365
I don't think Ligon talks about playing chord tones on downbeats, he illustrates how certain outlines occurs in several great artists solos, but they are all from basic where it falls on each quarter note to complex embellishments and delayed and anticipated rhytms not necessarily with chord tones on downbeats.
Isn't this all related to tension and relief? A phrase with chord tones on downbeats doesn't generate as much tension as one without. If you look/listen at/to a Jarret solo there's more chromatisicm towards the end then in the beginning.
I think it's a good thing to be able play it straight with chord tones on downbeats but regarding it as a rule probably acts more restrictive then creative.

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#1516077 - 09/15/10 07:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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I believe Beeboss may be implying it would be nearly impossible to find rules that apply exclusively to KJs playing that wouldn't also apply to every other pro piano player, or pro jazz player for that matter.

I also think agree that the chord tone on the downbeats is a good idea to START with, but soon gets muddied when one realizes that chord tones really are just scale positions. I'd suggest that one of the better methods to becoming a better improviser is to understand the basic rules, try to take them to the extreme, and then see at what point they don't seem to work anymore. This is the point that another set of rules probably take over. Until that point though, I believe it is pretty difficult to understand why the chord tone on downbeat rule may be too limiting.
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#1516079 - 09/15/10 07:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Klink, are we defining it the same way?

To me

downbeats = strong beats = 1,2,3,4
Upbeats = Offbeats = 1+,2+,3+,4+

And no, I've said in long dissertations here that that's not the entirety of it. It's just the starting point and then rhythmic displacement and additional harmonic overlays provide more tension as needed.
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#1516084 - 09/15/10 07:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Again, the bebop scale, is a chord tone on downbeat concept. However, it is a scalar approach since it assumes stepwise movement.

But it's not really such a strange concept. When I was figuring out how to play Giant Steps, I realize I had 8 beats on BMaj7. So I had to figure out what to do with those 8 beats. I started out thinking that I should have 1-3-5-7 in there somewhere at the downbeats. Then I played with many possible 1+,2+,3+,4+ choices. If I just think of landing on a 1-3-5-7 on downbeats and allowing for repetition and chromatics, I came up with a lot of options.

Now I don't have think about it. My note choices end up synchronized to the bar. Or another way of describing it is just playing in even numbered (2,4, or 8) patterns.

It does sound better than simply saying arpeggiate or play consecutive 8 notes in the scale, etc. because if you don't line up the bar, you get lost.

The alternative is the Gyro approach. Play Giant Steps by "digging in", whatever that means.


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#1516104 - 09/15/10 07:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
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The downbeat is 1, the upbeat is 4. Think of the conductor. Regardless of 2/2, 3/4 or 4/4, 1 is down and 4 is up.

In general, and in jazz, I think people use downbeat for 1 and 3 and upbeat for 2 and 4.
Backbeats are also 2 and 4.

Downbeats, upbeats and backbeats are all beats in a measure.

Off-beats are the &. They're opposite to on-the beat.

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#1516115 - 09/15/10 08:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
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Originally Posted By: knotty
The downbeat is 1, the upbeat is 4. Think of the conductor. Regardless of 2/2, 3/4 or 4/4, 1 is down and 4 is up.

In general, and in jazz, I think people use downbeat for 1 and 3 and upbeat for 2 and 4.
Backbeats are also 2 and 4.

Downbeats, upbeats and backbeats are all beats in a measure.

Off-beats are the &. They're opposite to on-the beat.



This is confusing since it is referred to different ways.

I'll just say On-the-Beat and OffBeats from here on.
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#1516117 - 09/15/10 08:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 365
Yea JW I'm thinking downbeats as 1,2,3,4 and upbeats 4and,1and,2and,3and. Is there anything I said that doesn't make sense? And how do you get 8 beats on each chord for Giant Steps? One chord is half a bar.

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#1516125 - 09/15/10 08:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
beeboss Offline
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Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk

A phrase with chord tones on downbeats doesn't generate as much tension as one without. If you look/listen at/to a Jarret solo there's more chromatisicm towards the end then in the beginning.
I think it's a good thing to be able play it straight with chord tones on downbeats but regarding it as a rule probably acts more restrictive then creative.


I agree completely with that
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#1516130 - 09/15/10 08:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
I believe Beeboss may be implying it would be nearly impossible to find rules that apply exclusively to KJs playing that wouldn't also apply to every other pro piano player, or pro jazz player for that matter.


That is true I think. But even general rules are really hard to find.
I subscribe to the one rule school - the rule is if it sounds good then play it.


Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

I also think agree that the chord tone on the downbeats is a good idea to START with, but soon gets muddied when one realizes that chord tones really are just scale positions.


I agree completely, although I am far from sure that that is the Ligon approach, which seems to be much more one of connecting up chords based on guide lines.
I may be wrong though as I haven't seen the book.
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#1516137 - 09/15/10 08:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Again, the bebop scale, is a chord tone on downbeat concept. However, it is a scalar approach since it assumes stepwise movement.



Scales don't imply a stepwise movement. They are just a bunch of notes. You can play them as 3rd, 4ths, 6ths, extract 7th chords from them, play all manner of different patterns.
You can ALSO play them in a 'scalar' way if you like.

Personally I don't think of the beebop scale. It is just another scale with a single chromatic passing note. You can add that in many different places.



Originally Posted By: jazzwee

The alternative is the Gyro approach. Play Giant Steps by "digging in", whatever that means.


There are many approaches possible on giant steps. Playing 1357 on the downbeats is not the only way, although it is a good place to start.
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#1516177 - 09/15/10 09:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk
Yea JW I'm thinking downbeats as 1,2,3,4 and upbeats 4and,1and,2and,3and. Is there anything I said that doesn't make sense? And how do you get 8 beats on each chord for Giant Steps? One chord is half a bar.


Yep I meant 8 beats a bar but that really meant 4 for BMaj. Sorry about that.
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#1516188 - 09/15/10 10:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Some of this discussion can be a bunch of theory so I'd like to be specific. There's a transcription of KJ's ATTYA at hand. We discussed a chorus of it. I already learned a lot from the chorus just based on this supposed rule. Again I started the analysis from the rule. Now what do I have?

Things I learned from KJ:

1. On Cm7, I can outline 1 11 b7 or just the usual 1 b3 5 b7
2. On Dominants, I can outline 1 3 5 b7 or b9 #9 #5
3. On sequences of V I IV, I can sub to V7 I7 IV
4. On a bar I can safely play at least one 9 of the chord
5. On a bar I can displace the chord outline by 1/8.
6. I can approach these chord tones half a step away, or a step away on the offbeat
7. Chord tones outlined can be ascending, descending, or staggered (up down /up down)
8. Approaching the 3rd from the 9th is very common
9. Approaching the chord tone chromatically is very common
10. Chromaticism is more common on Dominants.

On and on...I'm sure I can come up with 50 observations here just on one chorus.

Are these not real things to pick up here? There's obviously a lot of these but before I did this analysis, I knew nothing. Just hearsay. If I played the above, I will be doing SOME of what KJ is doing. It's a start.

The structure that has been defined just puts a framework for observation. Does it really matter that KJ played an 11 on Cm7 as his main outline of the chord? It just means he thought it important so I should too.

Now again, this will be dismissed. So just a moment ago, I was driving and I was once again listening to KJ in the car. I made an effort to IGNORE offbeats. I just tried to concentrate on what he plays on-the-Beat. Everyone can argue all day, but in my head I could hear the chords and I just listen to the direction.

This is obviously just the note picking side of things. KJ's phrasing, rhythmic play etc. is just mind boggling. But on this side of things I don't know why it is perceived to be impossible to figure out.

The only rule I'm applying here is: "Pay Attention to What He does On-The-Beat".
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#1516191 - 09/15/10 10:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
BTW - Here's a response from Ligon posted to a public site. This confirms some of what I already said when I did the analysis of the "chord tones".

Quote:

Someone asked about some of the strange notes in the solo.

I showed the traditional changes for his solo on the transcription.

I did not show where Jarrett made substitutions. Jarrett suggests Em7-A7 in m.5
instead of the Eb7. The line he plays over Em is a sequence of what he played
over the Bbm7 chord. Em7-A7 is a substitute progression that resolves to Ab.
Compare that substitution to Satin Doll, where Ellington used Abm7-Db7 to
resolve to C instead of the typically Dm7-G7. The substitution is ii-V7 a
tritone away from the expected ii-V7. There is a suggestion of this later in
m.29.

Instead of Abmaj7 in m.6, Jarrett uses Ab7, functioning as the V7/IV, or the V7
of Db.
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#1516199 - 09/15/10 10:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Doug McKenzie Offline
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Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Australia
For quite a few years, virtually the only thing being taught to novices was the scale syllabus - as outlined in Aebersold / Baker type books. As anyone who has either taught students this way, or been a student being taught this way, the result of following this method exclusively is bland, often boring (but sort-of correct) solos. Surprisingly, this methodology lasted for years - even decades. I say hooray for people like Bert Ligon, and Hal Galper!

Sure, any solo by a great player can be analysed as scales - but the missing information is the placement of essential chord tones. A good player does it intuitively - not consciously or deliberately placing them appropriately.

I have just had a hunt for my copy of the Ligon book, but can't find it to check, but I think that Ligon regards the notes of the triad (root, 3rd and 5th) as the primary notes, and of these the 3rd he regards as of particular importance. The rest (including the 7th) are tensions that most often are resolved.

With embellishments of one sort or another, substitutions, anticipations and displacement of notes, it is difficult to decode a passage in a solo as sophisticated and complex as Keith Jarrett's. Also, articulation and accents I am sure play a part in creating a satisfying line. But, I reckon the Ligon analysis of ATTYA is valid. There is a lot more in Ligon's book that is worth considering. His 3 'outlines' - an interesting and useful idea, other ways to add emphasis to the primary chord tones such as surrounding, finishing a phrase on a chord tone (especially the 3rd) etc.

Just my (Australian) 2 cents worth!

Doug

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#1516200 - 09/15/10 10:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk

A phrase with chord tones on downbeats doesn't generate as much tension as one without. If you look/listen at/to a Jarret solo there's more chromatisicm towards the end then in the beginning.
I think it's a good thing to be able play it straight with chord tones on downbeats but regarding it as a rule probably acts more restrictive then creative.


I can only work from a specific. At least from the ATTYA solo snippet, I see no such pattern yet as you explain. So I couldn't agree or disagree.

I'd like to work from a standpoint of evidence. It really because it's at the end of the bar or is it because he was doing it on a dominant? Was he doing chromatism on a minor chord or dominant?

As evident from even this ATTYA chorus, he was free to go chromatic on the dominants. I didn't see him do that on a minor7 or a major7 which was a revelation it itself. I already drew that as observation based on the selected chord tones.


Edited by jazzwee (09/15/10 10:23 PM)
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#1516269 - 09/16/10 12:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Is this discussion clarifying anything for anyone? I'm at a loss to think that there is ultimately any benefit from digging in and defending a certain point of view.

But to throw something else out there that I'd kind of like others to comment on:

I believe KJ is currently probably one of the least harmonically daring jazz pianists out there. I also think he will go down in history as one of the best, but somewhat similar to JS Bach in that he was perfecting things others of his generation had already abandoned for other more harmonically advanced avenues of expression.

In a nutshell, when I listen to KJ I hear:

1. Emphasis on chord tones (lots of 1, 3, 5)
2. Lots of diatonic stuff leading to each chord tone
3. Blues scales when he occasionally abandons the diatonic
4. Repetition of cells, often outlining chord tones
5. Singable solo ideas often at all times and all speeds (logical interval leaps included)
6. Feel and rhythm used to best emphasis diatonic or blues scales
7. Limited (tasteful) use of altered scale/altered chords
8. Virtual absence of dissonance, or outlining 'difficult' intervals
9. One or two chord 'groove' which often evolves from a previously used blues riff
10.Some guy keeps on showing up in his recordings and kind of ruins them by moaning along smile

I'm not sure if everyone or anyone would agree to any or all of what I said, but in any case, I also don't think that the information would help any of us play more like him.
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#1516370 - 09/16/10 06:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

I believe KJ is currently probably one of the least harmonically daring jazz pianists out there.



No I can't agree with that. He is on a different harmonic planet than other players. The only ones who are even in the same ballpark are Chick and Herbie.
It is true that Keith is not frightened by simple triad music (that most other players would not dream of playing) but he is very varied in his approach. If you just listen to the standards trio you might be fooled into thinking of him as a bit retro, but if you take his body of work as a whole (including the solo albums, the classical compositions, the american and european quartet, the classical stuff, and the rest of it) then there is no doubt about his harmonic daring.

Just have a listen to this one ....
piano solo starts at about 12 mins if you cannot make it through one of the most intense sax solos I have ever heard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYCpl2lKlj8
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#1516383 - 09/16/10 07:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


In a nutshell, when I listen to KJ I hear:

1. Emphasis on chord tones (lots of 1, 3, 5)
2. Lots of diatonic stuff leading to each chord tone
3. Blues scales when he occasionally abandons the diatonic


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA7fqYrQGps&feature=related

Start listening at around a minute for some good examples of this
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#1516759 - 09/16/10 05:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
In a nutshell, when I listen to KJ I hear:

1. Emphasis on chord tones (lots of 1, 3, 5)
2. Lots of diatonic stuff leading to each chord tone
3. Blues scales when he occasionally abandons the diatonic
4. Repetition of cells, often outlining chord tones
5. Singable solo ideas often at all times and all speeds (logical interval leaps included)
6. Feel and rhythm used to best emphasis diatonic or blues scales
7. Limited (tasteful) use of altered scale/altered chords
8. Virtual absence of dissonance, or outlining 'difficult' intervals
9. One or two chord 'groove' which often evolves from a previously used blues riff
10.Some guy keeps on showing up in his recordings and kind of ruins them by moaning along smile

I'm not sure if everyone or anyone would agree to any or all of what I said, but in any case, I also don't think that the information would help any of us play more like him.


You could make the same criticism of Bill Evans then. He does a lot of the same things and even less use of Alt (though heavy on the b9).

What does it tell us? Some possibilities in my head.

(1) The beauty of the line cannot be captured emotionally in the structure of just saying chord tones, etc. Although I believe it to be true, I accept it to be incomplete. The mechanics of chord tones and such is really about 'playing the changes'. The big picture and connecting all the various ii-V-I's into a sensible whole is not something anyone has even tried to explain (and which I am sure is Beeboss' point). If I can just post a track from Kenny Werners version of Giant Steps (solo piano), this will explain itself (I don't know how to do that at the moment). This is where the true artistry comes in.

(2) Listening to KJ shows so much going on rhythmically, phrasing, etc. that it's like saying he can choose notes like Bach. But how he applies those notes and create a context for the moment and express it so exquisitely technically speaking shows up beautifully in my ears. Listen how he times the note on a beat and those alone have their own tension and release.

(3) My teacher is a Modern Jazz player. Yet in theory, the doesn't choose notes any differently from Bill Evans or KJ. What he does though that makes it sound different is he layers a different chord on top of the regular changes. But he plays it just like that was the regular change. I see Chick doing the same thing.
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#1516769 - 09/16/10 05:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Doug McKenzie]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Doug McKenzie
A good player does it intuitively - not consciously or deliberately placing them appropriately.

Doug


Thanks for your comments Doug.

I want to add a point based on what you said. I don't think it can be assumed that I actually think KJ, Bill Evans, Chick etc. are out there figuring out actual chord tones on downbeats.

Since I've learned this methodology years ago now, I find that it has become instinctive in me. So I presume it has always been instinctive in the masters. For me, it's just an ability to sustain a general harmonic outline in my ears.

But I don't want to imply too that I believe this is the complete story. It is but a small facet and a learning/teaching tool. To turn the harmonic 'outline' into a full coherent message is no simple task.
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#1521881 - 09/24/10 02:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Everyone petered out from a little debate?
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#1527547 - 10/03/10 05:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1355
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Interesting; the Jarrett discussion. One thing I miss in it and that's the fact the KJ is also a composer: jazz, 'classical', etc, so his improvising knowledge is also an intuitive composition.
To "play" like him one needs to study (and play); Bach, Mozart, Ravel, Copland, Scriabin, Chopin, etc etc as well as Monk, Jamal, Dixieland, Ragtime, Stride, freeform - Ornette, et al. And then some pop (heard KJ's Beatles variations or the Dylan period?) mixed with Folk (world) music.

In other words; music. :-)

Btw here's KJ at the age of twenty.

Btw too . . . I had an interesting chat with Palle Danielsson (the bass player on those 'Belonging' tracks) at a birthday party this summer. I asked him about the recording of Belonging - what stopped me in my tracks was Palle's words: "it's all first takes". And there was no rehearsals, everybody sight-read the tunes (Jan is an excellent sight-reader). "Keith wrote those tunes on the plane over".
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#1527639 - 10/03/10 08:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Chris, my teacher also told me that all his recordings are single takes. I guess it simulates playing live. It's actually amazing when you think about it. At their level, they have the ability to concentrate fully for those moments. Of course, after the gig/recording, you can see the exhaustion...
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#1527642 - 10/03/10 08:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
I've been really having fun with my iRealBook Iphone App and having my little combo so here's a practice snippet. I think this may be my first post here with a rhythm section...

All the Things Your Are (Combo)
http://www.box.net/shared/38lziqi7oa
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#1527889 - 10/04/10 09:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Very cool stuff JW. Do you have sound in on you keyboard, or you put that through an amp?

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#1528022 - 10/04/10 12:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Very cool stuff JW. Do you have sound in on you keyboard, or you put that through an amp?


Wouldn't that be great having a "In" in the Keyboard? But no, I just have a mixer between the keyboard and the monitors. However, I didn't plug the Zoom H3 in to the mixer. I just recorded with the Mic. Next time. But it does change how I practice now.
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