hey etctera, good to see you here. Maybe you can blog your practice here too like the rest of us.

Talking about tempo, I was practicing ATTYA a moment ago at about 225bpm or so. No particular reason for the specific tempo, it was just not too extreme. I felt good about the headroom. It was relaxed.

But just to compare, I'm at my limit playing the Donna Lee head at this tempo. I just realized that some of the stuff required to play the head is just unnatural for me. I wouldn't really play like that. I guess it's similar to the licks you were talking about. Some just don't work.

At the fast tempos, I will tend to play the fast lines all within reach of my hand. I'm not going to arpeggiate at 300bpm. Too risky. Probably no big leaps inside an eighth note phrase. The leaps will have to be half notes, quarter notes. Interesting because it does require different thinking. Maybe that's why fast tempos have to really be specifically practiced.

Lately, as I practice uptempo, I have to make sure the metronome dings at every 4 beats because it's easy to cheat. You might lose the form and memorize it that way.

I wish I had a trio that just shows up at my house every night for practice...

yea its really hard to get something consitent going on LH and keep on going. I've worked on soloing over LH patterns.. and doing metric modulation stuff with RH (dotted quarters, 3/4 over 4/4), and I was exhausted every time I work on it for like 30min.. I can kind of do some of it, but I think it would take years for me to make that a natural part of my playing.

here's a recording of maiden voyage i did a while ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en4qXENGNdc

haha me too.. it's really hard to find good players who are willing to work on things.. I am lucky that I have a few I can call.

Yea I guess when I have speed issues, I have to isolate and practice like I do with classical stuff.. I might take 1 measure, or 4-5 notes.. sometimes even less than that and string them together and figure out where the weak spot is, and what's cause the unnaturalness... usually there is a technical problem that is causing a bottleneck.. and it could be fingering too.

I kind of realize that when playing fast on a solo piano stuff, it's not about keeping super-consitant time.. it's more about flow and consistency...I mean even ppl like Oscar peterson, bill evans, kenny barron will rush alot when they are playing fast by themselves, but it doesn't sound bad because they are fairly constent and everything flows well

Given that we are all not Bill Evans, is there a magic number or range above which the average human plays straight eighth notes rather than swung eighth notes ?

custard apple

I guess it really depends on your goals.. Most gigs don't really require to play anything faster than 200-230 bpm..I know a lot of working musicians that can't play that fast but they are able to make a living doing music.

But if I want to play with the kind of people my teachers are playing with I think 300 is a good goal. Heck, my teachers talk about how 300 isn't that fast in overall scheme of things.. and that's crazy talk for me.


btw this is from dave liebman

"Does your practice including working on all the major modes, melodic minor modes, diminished, etc…in all the standard intervallic permutations and well in ALL keys? Also, arpeggiations and their variations? ACCURATELY in tempo? You want to work it up to 300 bpm for 8th notes"

I like that analogy. You are zooming down the road, a tricky turn is coming up, you have a split second to decide which path to take...etc. It seems to me that the great players, instead of having crashes like me, anticipate the difficulties and manage to avoid falling off. They stay in the zone by making minute adjustments as they are going along as they have more control than me.

I liked you Maiden Voyage btw, good groove

Yes 300 is what I am aiming for.
But speed is deceptive, it is much easier to play over a funk groove at 300 than a metronome just clicking the 2 and 4.

I was playing Donna Lee at 250 yesterday. It was pretty much ok but with some slips here and there, not completely comfortable by quite a long way. Its hard to relax at that speed.

Thank you etcetera and beeboss for your help.
In the past, I've been concentrating on velocity. Now I want to go back to basics, making sure I have mastered the swing-funk groove. So I am practicing all my scales with the swing-funk rhythm against the metronome, making sure I accent the "and".
How do you guys treat the "and" ? Do you slightly delay it or do you slightly play ahead of it ? I always try and make sure I don't play it straight which was my classical upbringing.
I'm going to bed now so won't respond for a while.

Yea what you are saying is totally true.. a lot of players can do that because they've practiced to the point where they can make the adjustment by instinct, without thinking about it. I guess you can make similar analogy to martial arts, you train yourself so that you can do series of complex movements in a split second.

I am reading a book called "art of learning" by joshua waitzkin. he used to be a child chess prodigy and he has since moved on to martial arts and has become very successful at it. I am learning a lot from that book.. The technical/facility side of music really isn't that much different than sports or martial arts.

I think the biggest challenge is in fixing those glitches/problems. That's where good practice habits becomes important. It can be very frustrating and time consuming, like figuring out the right move in a chess problem.. but if you can solve these problems consistently, playing fast "should come naturally' over time.

btw thanks for the feedback.. I've listened to your posts on youtube and I like your playing too

I can't say I have ever practiced scales with a groove although I am sure that is a useful thing to do. I am always aiming for a perfectly even scale or a fast scale, or both.
To practice groove I just play something, sometimes with a metronome and sometimes not, and try to get the groove in the pocket as much as I cans.
Slowish swing with an aebersold or playing along with real records for a long time is maybe the best way to develop control of swing. Experiment with holding back or pushing forward and with different accents and timings to see which you like.

custard Apple, as far as delaying is concerned, if you listen to Herbie Hancock you can really hear this -- it's variation. He will tend to delay the DOWNBEAT as an effect (which straightens out the UPBEAT). So it feels relaxed.

But then he will reverse it like regular swing. Delaying the downbeat is often heard with horn players.

As far as swing vs. straight, it's hard to comprehend this with piano sometimes so listen to more horn players (again), and they start playing straighter BUT DELAYED quite early on. Probably around 180bpm.

It's about control of where you are on the beat. So you're controlling two things: (a) The ratio between upbeat and downbeat, and (b) the delay. At any phrase, and really I would think of this at the phrase level, whatever it is you are doing has to be consistent. If you suddenly change from delay to on top of the beat, you will sound like you're out of the pocket.

I find that practicing scales is not the best way to deal with swing. The reason is that control is lost when a line gets complex. Scales are too easy. At the early stages, I used heads of tunes as practice. Donna Lee is a basic one. You can play this from 120bpm to 250bpm and you will feel how differently you have to swing.

Also, swing must always be practiced against something that's on the beat. You cannot practice it with one hand for example. Use the LH to define the beat.

Depending on the type of player, you will find different moves regarding playing straight or swinging hard. Oscar Peterson swings at very high tempos. Bill Evans has a very hard swing that I can hear at 200bpm.

The contrast though is that Oscar swings hard at slow tempos, while Bill Evans will play it as classical music at slow tempos.

My teacher is a modern jazz player. He will sound very straight at 150bpm. He will tend to play on the beat and not delay the downbeat so much. But at 120bpm he swings very hard. It's actually harder to control swing at slow tempos because your time has to be better.

I definitely agree with that. But it will only 'naturally' get better if it is worked at. Playing fast involves a serious mental workout as well as the physical challenges.

I think I should check out that book as well, learning about learning has got to be good.

Just a comment on this LH pattern I've been doing recently. Full disclosure. I learned this 2+ years ago. I could never execute so I try a little bit and it's hard to get the concentration going.

But recently something clicked. So echoing what you said, it does take years. I guess it's no different than walking bass.

I'm having more success with 5/4 it seems, more than the one I recorded at 4/4.

Now Mehldau and Werner take this a little further. They start to play RH lines that are offset from the LH beat. That's really distracting. I can't do it.

I think I will try out in short phrases, of 2-3 notes and move away from the LH rhythm with the RH.

I'm pleased that I figured out something new this last couple of days. Sometimes it takes awhile to notice some new skill develop.

Beeboss and jazzwee: I’ve copied your advice into a Word doc so that I can take my time to absorb it. Thanks for taking time out to help me with my upbeat (“and”) issues. I can learn a lot from you dudes.
Excuse my ignorance – what is an abersold ?
I must study more Charlie Parker and Lester Young. With Herbie Hancock, are you referring to his signature pieces rather than the slow modern pieces he has recently produced ?

custard_apple, I can probably point out specific Youtube performances so you will not need to search. When I get the time, I'll show you.

One other thing I need to add here:

Normal "hard" Swing played at the top of the beat has a ratio like this (let's say played at 120bpm).

(downbeat) 66% (upbeat) 33%
The percentage is the swing ratio. Straight of course is
50% 50%

Now this requires some thought, but what happens when you drag the downbeat? First it is no longer played at the top of the beat but assuming that you start the second eighth note in the exact same position, then the 1st eighth note gets shorter. And the second eighth note starts in the same place but ends right before the next delayed beat starts (making it longer). So in essence, you've straightened the note ratios.

But the swing remains because of the delay. Then you highlight this by accenting the downbeat.

This is what happens when you listen to horn players swing. It doesn't sound like a triplet 2:1 ratio eighth pair.

You don't always do this but it creates a wonderful tension in the swing. This is practiced. It doesn't come automatically. You may start doing it naturally if you start dragging the downbeat.

Custard Apple -- note Herbie's swing at :44 - :50. 1:05-1:09, 1:20 -1:24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU6swznIDoo

He does it all the time but just to be precise I highlighted a few specific areas so you can loop it over and over. These are examples of delaying the downbeat.

Herbie will do it on most continuous streams of eighth notes.

BTW - I do this all the time. It has the effect of playing your eighths straight but have it still swing.

Hey Jazzwee again, I just have to say wow, I appreciate those kool you-tube examples you highlighted. Essentially are you saying that in jazz, it doesn’t matter if you delay the upbeat or the downbeat, as long as you are consistent for a given phrase ?
And I do think a bit mathematically, so that 66%:33% example really helps.
There's not much stuff out there on swing.

Yes - it is a stylistic thing. When you use a 66%:33% ratio or 2:1 ratio, I don't really consider that delaying the upbeat, although that's what really happens.

Here's the deal, most jazz players don't play at 2:1 ratio. Even Bill Evans, when he swings hard will be at some ratio closer to a 1.5:1.

Modern Jazz players (like Herbie) will play more at close to 1:1 ratio with the difference coming from the delay and the accent on the downbeat. Note that when you delay the eighth pair (played straight), the second note will coincide with the same time as someone playing at a 2:1 ratio. This is how Brad Mehldau swings while playing straight eighths.

So when I was taught to swing, I really don't think much of the ratio (which can change), but instead I focuse on the upbeat, and then purposely lengthen/shorten the upbeat to achieve some effect. The control really comes from knowing to accent the upbeat. If you can play a head like Donna Lee and know when to accent the upbeat, you'll get good control.

To develop good swing, don't think of the ratios, focus on upbeat accents and hanging back (dragging the beat). Once you are consistent with the control then you can start varying this (less or more accents, less or more dragging, shorter or longer upbeat note).

There is no one answer although one can analyze what a player is doing at a particular moment.

Thanks HEAPS Jazzwee, I think I really get what you are saying now.

Speed for me depends on the tune and I'm eternally grateful for the quarter note triplet.
I can do Autumn Leaves and easy tunes fast, but tunes like Countdown and Giants Steps or even modal tunes, not so ... GS from the Aebersold Coltrane play along feautres a monsterous tempo, they start at 308 but push it to 320 or so, makes you want to bang your head in a wall.

All,

I posted this on the other thread, but it's more appropriate here. Here we go :

I don't know how many people here subscribe to 7notemode's videos. Every now and then, he creates a tutorial. Here's the latest on Sophisticated Lady:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdNWTcuWVuo

I happen to think that his tutorials are the best on youtube for more advanced players. You can play his arrangements just like he plays them, and understand a lot of what's going on. There are also lots of practice tips. It very much is like having a lesson that you can rewind. You can even ask questions right there on the thread and usually you'll get a quick answer.

Some guys on youtube are finding the tutorials too difficult to follow. Tom (7notemode) asked me to ask you guys your honest opinion. If you watched the video, just send him a message a youtube to tell him how he can make the videos better, what worked, what didn't.
If you haven't watched his videos, really you should

Knotty, yes they are difficult to follow if you are beginner partly because it's not always clear if the lesson is about voicings in general or about the tune in particular (I only watched part 1 so far).

I don't even know the tune (and I probably still don't after watching the video ) but I picked up some good voicing stuff. The way he teaches sounds like at typical lesson with a teacher in a way. You are assumed to already know the tune, and you work out the details chord by chord.

If I knew the tune already, the way he was teaching would explain how to do the head his way, using the two handed style (which is the way I play anyway).

If anything, my only suggestion to 7notemode here was to first play the Head as he's going to teach it (or part of it) so the lesson is framed. I didn't realize what he was doing until I was in the middle of it. Then once your objective is clear, the viewer can focus. The meanderings were actually great, but they would be better understood if the main point is finished and then the you proceed to the meandering.

When I learn a new tune, I try to study it like the way 7notemode was doing here. The process itself was enjoyable to watch, like unravelling a thought process. But he's doing it pretty fast so I had to rewind a little since I didn't know the tune.

I'm going to watch part 2 a little later.

Jazzwee,

I agree with you.
He starts by playing the head, two-handed, which is something anyone at any level should do before tackling a new tune. So at least the head should be clear. It's one of those timeless standards, Chick likes to play it.

However, I agree that a quick run through the head as he's going to describe it would help.

I actually love the fact that he's going fast through stuff, because I download his videos and it's easy to rewind. For me it's hard to watch something slow

Overall, to me, the lesson is about arranging a tune. See you have tons of lessons on voicings, and how to play from fakebook etc.... However, there is very little out there on how to actually arrange jazz tunes. The concepts discussed in these vids tell you how to use a variety of techniques, what to do with the left hand, call and response, etc...

I have never seen this explained in any book. However, it's a typical question. What do to with the left hand?

knotty, yes these lessons are rare and it's great that 7notemode does these. It's how I was taught to play and in general, in the Jazz thread (1), I just refer to the Halberstadt 2 + 3 voicings as the base. But it's not a fixed thing. You search for the answer using the melody as a guide and you do it differently for every tune.

My teacher would often expect me to do this instantaneously and I get intimidated. But then I realize that half an hour of uninterrupted thinking gets me there

I think the common kind of lessons are often the "play rootless in the LH" and then the melody in the RH, which is totally inappopriate for solo piano. It even assumes that a memorized rootless chord works with the melody. And a lot of times, they clash. Regular (6)(9) Rootless chords assume no alteration.

rootless LH voicings are great, but these lessons are clearly a step past that. There's certainly a level of theory and technique required.

Hey Jazzwee, To answer your comment on the other thread, I confess, I have been more of a lurker than a contributor, but I do visit Pianoworld a lot. It's on my list of websites that I check out almost daily. Thanks for the feedback from both you and knotty. I got a fair number of messages on the Sophisticated Lady tutorial basically saying, 'I don't get it. It's not clear' etc. I think that was coming from players who don't quite have the foundation to follow it yet. I had considered doing more basic videos, but decided against it because there are so many 'What is a tritone' videos already out there already, and I don't need to add to that. My formula so far has been to play through a piece and spontaneously blather on about it. I am looking for suggestions on what is helpful and what isn't and what topics would be of interest. Thanks again.

7notemode, first of all welcome here. I used to hang out more often at the KC forum where we first exchanged comments long ago. But I haven't posted there much anymore. And probably neither did you. Anyway, I remember your early posts there and about your Tristano-type training.

I think your approach is exactly right. It happens to benefit a certain kind of group (like me) who can really appreciate what you're saying. Like I said earlier, it was like my teacher commenting on a thought process of how to conceptualize the head of a tune. That's pretty rare on Youtube.

I was just disadvantaged a little bit at the beginning from watching your video because I don't know the tune. But even then, I was following what you were saying.

I was thinking that one way to bridge the gap between those without the foundation and those with is to do a lesson specifically about two-handed playing. No one talks about that much and beginners need to start off with the idea of shell voicings on the LH so they get used to the shape and then learn to fill in the sound. You know that once the shell shape is felt that all the inner voices become easy to add.

I remember when I started that there were very few resources on two-handed playing except maybe for a handful of references about '10 Finger playing' (I think that was from LearnJazzPiano.com) but of course no one fills the details.

There are obviously some strong basics needed to two handed playing since it's not a memorized voicing. But I guess that is something that has to be assumed.

BTW - your videos have been posted around these parts a time or two (and some even the subject of some debate - I think it was the one where you were getting a technique lesson). No, not us Jazz folks! We're always on the positive part of the camp and appreciative of your videos, and Beeboss, and Lot2Learn and others willing to share.

Hang out with us 7Notemode. This particular thread, we discuss practically anything Jazz.

Did you say 'blether'?

Where I come from, we blether a lot, and it's one of my all-time favourite words!

I got a lot out of some of your youtube clips on vocalising - and though I don't (or can't actually do it) - I do get the point of what you were putting across, so it has been helpful.

I'm probably too much of a jazz noob to get much out of what you do. If you want to do something more basic (and I can live without a tritone video) then how about doing something really, really simple - say - C-jam blues? I say this at the risk of lowering the tone of the thread.

Thanks for being so generous with you skills!

Now I'll stop blethering.

I know about blathering but blethering is new to me

BTW - TLT, there's no such thing as lowering the tone of the thread. It was more the opposite, I was worried that the other thread might get too complex. Some really good advice may be withheld because it wasn't going to be understood. Here, everyone should understand all levels.

Blether, got it!
10Lth- I may redo that vocalizing video. I think I used examples that were too uptempo. I may simplify the message and use a tune that is a lot slower.
Jazzwee- I lurk from time to time on the keyboard forum too.
I posted that Barbara Lister Sink video about playing technique, and man! talk about some strong opinions. I thought I was a little bit obsessive about posture and energy flow, but I don't come close to some of the people on the forums.
The two hand comping video is a good idea. I was also thinking a left hand comping video. I would have to get my thoughts together about it. The thing that has been rewarding about the youtube videos for me is that I have come to learn that there are people out there trying to figure this stuff out who live in South Africa, eastern Europe, etc. and have no access to live teachers like we do here, so Youtube videos and the like are their only opportunity to learn.