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#1723390 - 07/30/11 03:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I guess a (good) sax player can tune it instinctively. There's no need to pretune. They adjust based on the temperature of the sax, not by tuning to some other instrument.
I disagree. All wind instruments have to tune (and should tune before and at the gig), humidity, room temperature will screw up your reed. After a couple of tunes its always important to check the tuning. I really hate out of tune instruments so I always bring a tuner to rehearsals, first I check the piano, then I determine if the piano is tuned to 440 or whatever, so that I can calibrate the tuner, then I check everybody's tuning (you would be surprised how many musicians do not know how to tune their instruments properly). Electric bassists and guitarists are not that heavily affected as reed players, but if they're playing with me I want to keep check that they're in-tune with the piano and not just their digital tuners. (yeah I know, I'm a bit of a task master, but if the band is carrying my name then I'm responsible for the sound)
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#1723408 - 07/30/11 05:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Doug McKenzie]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Doug McKenzie
Hi David

I really enjoyed the 'Blackberry Winter' track you did - not a song I knew. Aside from 'Moon and Sand', the other Wilder songs that I really like are 'I'll Be Around' and 'While We're Young'
Doug


Thanks Doug, very glad you enjoyed it.
I will definitely check out those other Wilder tunes.
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#1723414 - 07/30/11 06:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
I also must join in with the chorus; nice playing Dave.

And thanks for all these suggestions of Alec Wilder tunes.
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#1723431 - 07/30/11 08:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Thanks Chris
my list of tunes to look at only ever seems to get longer and longer.
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#1723442 - 07/30/11 09:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
RE: Tuning.
Yes, that's usually the first thing the guy will do, tune to the piano.
As far as bass players, they tune the most, especially acoustic bass players, they'll tune even as they play. Although you can tell something by the way someone tunes his bass ...
Another point of discussion because if you bring up the "That's not how you tune a bass", well I think you're really going to look annoying, although you might be right. I've seen a bass player -on a gig- tune each string separately to the piano. Well guess what, that piano had not been tuned in couple year (guess). The whole night, he couldn't find his notes. Well no $h!& !
Vibes, you got a problem, because they don't tune ...

2 tracks from last night, a little bit ambitious with the second smile Good fun.
http://www.box.net/shared/c6r0sc7gtcypnydpbdlz
http://www.box.net/shared/3rh02kpq3rjcaqfxkqsx

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#1723793 - 07/30/11 10:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Well except for the first time and first few minutes a few months ago, the sax player never had to tune again. I guess she predicts the conditions (humidity and temp) and it turns out perfectly. The first time, she rushed in from another gig so that may have been a special case. So far, all have been in tune on the 1st tune of the set.

It was on the second gig that I asked her if she needed to tune and she said no need.
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#1723803 - 07/30/11 11:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
2 tracks from last night, a little bit ambitious with the second smile Good fun.
http://www.box.net/shared/c6r0sc7gtcypnydpbdlz
http://www.box.net/shared/3rh02kpq3rjcaqfxkqsx



Very nice Knotty! Second one was really good. First one -- you have the same problem as I had. The drummer doesn't swing. They make these complex patterns and lose the groove. Then it was bringing everyone down and time wasn't tight.

BTW - first time I've ever heard you play uptempo. You did a great job!
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#1723859 - 07/31/11 12:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I've been promising this so I will now deliver. One shot recording of Naima with a Latin beat. I had to redo the chords (double) in the iRealB App to accomodate a double time feel. This is the kind of styling I wanted to use for my gig.

Please critique. Sorry about the mechanical nature of a BIAB style backing but can't help that.

Naima - Latin (Double Time Feel)
http://www.box.net/shared/zxebkd9v2derzc97mc1a
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#1723896 - 07/31/11 05:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Nice one Knotty, well done on Cherokee. I agree with JW that your drummer is dragging the time some which makes it hard to play against.

JW you are sounding good on Naima, Very musical playing. Maybe you could break up the single line impro a bit more with some other contrasting devices, block chords, 3rds octaves rhythmic devices etc, but you are getting round those chords just fine.
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#1723905 - 07/31/11 06:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
+ 1 on the Cherokee Knotty. Not easy with the stuff that the drummer is throwing at you.

--------------------

Nice JW! Very nice.
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#1723942 - 07/31/11 09:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Thanks for the feedback all. It's the first time I play with this combo, and I did have a bit of trouble clicking with the drummer's figure, though I thought it would get better with time. Funny throughout the night, I thought the bass player was dragging a bit, but listening back, I think you are right.

I have different rhythm sections coming up Monday and Friday, I'll see the difference.

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#1723951 - 07/31/11 09:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Nice one JW, nice control over this difficult tune.

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#1723997 - 07/31/11 12:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Thanks guys.

Chris, I just realized that stylistically, it was along your lines of playing. Seems to work. I have to hone my style and for me it seems less is more.

Beeboss, yes I was trying to do that (block chords, etc.), but realized I lacked that skill. I was also irritated by little timing issues (like Scep), and legato issues due to lack of technique. There's stuff to woodshed here.

I'm glad the musicality part was conquered though.
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#1724048 - 07/31/11 02:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Chris, I just realized that stylistically, it was along your lines of playing. Seems to work. I have to hone my style and for me it seems less is more.
Thought I recognized that 2-3-1-7-combination. smile
But I think it has to do with your Chopin playing; working on the lyrical side of things.
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#1724063 - 07/31/11 03:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Chris, I think my teacher's influence is finally kicking in. It took long enough smile It's all the space stuff giving me time to think.
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#1724165 - 07/31/11 07:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Actually -- teacher thought it sucked. LOL. smile
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#1724331 - 08/01/11 03:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Just shows you; the man has no taste! laugh
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#1724470 - 08/01/11 11:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 624
Loc: Chicago
Just a note on the tune Windows which some on here enjoy playing at at leisurly tempo smile. There is a new recording by Chick Corea on his Return CD, which is a trio recording with Lenny White and Stanley Clark. White will never be my favorite drummer, but the piano playing by Corea is killer. Such creativity.

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#1724504 - 08/01/11 12:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Just shows you; the man has no taste! laugh


It's a solo shape issue. That is very hard on this tune because it goes so slowly. And then I ran out of technical dazzle skills to generate interest.

In a gig, I wouldn't do more than 1 chorus.
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#1724508 - 08/01/11 12:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jjo
Just a note on the tune Windows which some on here enjoy playing at at leisurly tempo smile. There is a new recording by Chick Corea on his Return CD,

CC has posted the full recordings on his Sound Cloud pages!
Listen here.
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https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#1724518 - 08/01/11 12:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Wow that version of Windows was great. But I wouldn't call that "leisurely" smile
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#1724569 - 08/01/11 02:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 624
Loc: Chicago
The version on the Cloud Pages site is different than the one that I was referencing. The Cloud Pages features Gadd and McBride, who I prefer to White and Clark, although Corea's playing is equally stellar on both. Just played Windows at a gig this past Saturday. I never tire of the melody, the changes, or anything else about this brilliant tune.

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#1724582 - 08/01/11 02:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
jjo, I messed up Windows when I last played it at a gig (Sax player was in wrong key) that I'm now gun-shy to play this live. LOL.

Maybe if I do it, I'll play trio only and the other soloists can take a break.

BTW - everytime I listen to how cleanly Chick articulates his notes, I'm so disgussted with myself. Darn -- how do you get that good? And he was probably playing like that since he was 12...
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#1724671 - 08/01/11 04:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 624
Loc: Chicago
It is amazing out Chick (and other giants such as Jarrett) can play the fastest run, but each note is clear as a bell. In fact, this is one of the things I think distinguishes the true giants. Most good musicians, when they play a fast run, you know they are playing a fast run; it sounds exciting, but also a bit frenzied, you can almost feel the strain. When Tatem, or Evans, or Hancock or Corea play a super fast run, it sounds natural, like it was just the appropriate musical choice for the moment, and nothing out of the ordinary.

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#1724689 - 08/01/11 05:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Beeboss has pretty clear runs so at least someone here got there smile

The word run though makes us think of a scale. But the masters, particularly Chick, plays any shape/phrase so precisely. And Chick does them detached. I think the classical guys would refer to it as 'pearly', each note a standalone pearl. This is so uniquely Chick.

I just want to know how to practice that. His fingers are like little hammers. Maybe the issue is that we don't have those kind of ears to hear the timing that precisely. Even among the masters, Chick is unique here. And his newer stuff is even more obscenely clean.

I have his original Matrix, and then one that he won a Grammy on a few years back and now he's playing lines at 400bpm easily. With even more clarity! It's just astounding.

It's a little frustrating to listen to Chick. He's one of my favorites but I have no chance of emulating him, even slightly.
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#1724698 - 08/01/11 05:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: knotty

2 tracks from last night, a little bit ambitious with the second smile Good fun.
http://www.box.net/shared/c6r0sc7gtcypnydpbdlz
http://www.box.net/shared/3rh02kpq3rjcaqfxkqsx


Originally Posted By: knotty
Thanks for the feedback all. It's the first time I play with this combo, and I did have a bit of trouble clicking with the drummer's figure, though I thought it would get better with time. Funny throughout the night, I thought the bass player was dragging a bit, but listening back, I think you are right.


Good job on both BM & Cherokee Knotty ! To echo everyone else, playing with drummers like that (and I have MANY times frown mad ) , I compare to running up a very steep hill with a large bag of rocks slung over your shoulder.

You're fighting against gravity or in this case simply--forward motion. There *ain't nuthin'* either you or I or even Chick or KJ could do in a situation like that. You try and compensate, pushing the time more...I've stared into the faces of drummers doing this when I've been soloing as if to say, HEY MAN CAN'T YOU HEAR WHAT'S GOING ON HERE ?! It never helps. The only thing you can do is try to relax and just settle on the backside of where they're putting it--which can bring it back even further... crazy It definitely makes for a long night and as I mentioned I've *been there* more times then I care to remember. cry

To my ears the bass player is also contributing to the train slowing down. A good bass player can help a draggy drummer by playing on top of the beat more, this guy isn't helping things along at all.

Nice solo on Cherokee especially under the adverse conditions...the other bad thing is on an up-tempo tune like that ; the more people that play on it (solo) the further the time keeps coming back--it can be brutal.. frown



Edited by Dave Ferris (08/01/11 07:58 PM)
Edit Reason: added thought
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#1724709 - 08/01/11 06:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Naima - Latin (Double Time Feel)
http://www.box.net/shared/zxebkd9v2derzc97mc1a


This is a real nice groove for this tune JW. I think I first heard Cedar Walton play it this way a long time ago.

Fwiw I thought it was very tasteful, musical and overall cool sounding but could have used a more diverse rhythmic approach at times. For me, over the whole solo it had a *sameness* to it. Your last chorus around 5:30 something it sounded like you started to dig in just a little more, maybe ?

I'll just add on to what BB said, in that more piano type devices inserted here and there would break up that *sameness* of the one note lines. Something like a full voicing in both hands where you are harmonizing the last top note of a phrase/melody (or at the beginning or in the middle of a phrase) can work wonders for getting a more full and interesting sound to the listener. And it doesn't even have to be a real harmonically complex voicing. It's harder for me to verbalize then to demonstrate at the piano... smile That's why I often refrain from giving more advanced concepts on internet forums.... smile

You are definitely on the right track, keep it up. It takes a long time to assimilate all this vast info/vocabulary and actually turn it into music--on the spot, instantly, coherently and consistently. Not to mention with less then desirable and supportive rhythm sections.... cry
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#1724711 - 08/01/11 06:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

CC has posted the full recordings on his Sound Cloud pages!
Listen here.


Thanks for that Chris, very cool he'd do that.
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#1724716 - 08/01/11 06:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Dave, I actually GOT the groove from Cedar Walton smile LOL. How precise you are!

I hear you exactly on the solo. In fact my teacher said the same thing. I didn't pace it properly and then I couldn't fit in other stylings. Yes -- I dug in but much later. I figured one chorus per style but it didn't work out. In this tune, maybe I shift gears faster.

BTW I didn't realize until later that the guitar in the backing track affected my rhythmic choices too. Since it would clash with my chord stabbings. So the block chords didn't seem appropriate. I'll turn off the guitar comp next time (I was using it to guide me in the form since the bassline is just a fixed drone).

In general - these long dragging ballads are so hard for me to create a 'story'. Maybe there's too much time. smile

But it's a great pedagogical exercise. I played this at a gig with only one simple chorus and the horns took the head.
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#1724822 - 08/01/11 09:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris


Something like a full voicing in both hands where you are harmonizing the last top note of a phrase/melody (or at the beginning or in the middle of a phrase) can work wonders for getting a more full and interesting sound to the listener. And it doesn't even have to be a real harmonically complex voicing. It's harder for me to verbalize then to demonstrate at the piano... smile That's why I often refrain from giving more advanced concepts on internet forums.... smile


Do you have a recording where you do this?


EDIT - BTW - Cedar Walton's version is double-time feel swing, not Latin. I just listened to it. And another interesting thing, Cedar Walton's solo was just one chorus.


Edited by jazzwee (08/01/11 10:57 PM)
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