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#1729417 - 08/09/11 01:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Thanks Knotty. Now what do you mean by "finishing your lines strongly"? If you're talking resolution/resolving, that would depend on what I was aiming for. Maybe you mean something else?

I challenged myself last night. Everything was very uptempo. But I was getting lost rhythmically. I can see now that most could have been fixed by just pausing for a moment and listening. Sometimes I have the urge to play more as it goes faster and I really should do the opposite.
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#1729440 - 08/09/11 02:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
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I picked one at random. Your line from 2.53 to 2.56 is not finished. You finish it, but then without skipping a beat, you go into a short burst of 8ths, as if you were not satisfied with the ending.
Then again at 2.59, you start a phrase that is broken up into 3.
At 3.17 is another good example. The phrase is not really ended. You have a nice long line before, but no end to it.
I would prefer longer lines separated by longer rests. If you have a lot to say, it's fine to say it, but give us time to process.
That's what I mean by ending the lines strongly.

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#1729445 - 08/09/11 02:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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You make a good point in general and I abide by that when I'm aware. However, at least in my own perception (even as I listen to it again), it seemed to me I did rest but being an uptempo tune, maybe another person may need more space. I will have to think about that some more.
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#1731069 - 08/11/11 02:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Online   content
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Originally Posted By: beeboss

I just did my weekly youtube upload
A lively tune by Egberto Gismonti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMLiOOCdDXM


Wow -- that sounded great. Piano sounded like a guitar. That was a good lesson in syncopation.

This is a very different type of music than what I normally hear from you Beeboss.
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#1731074 - 08/11/11 02:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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I've been reluctant to do Trio gigs because I don't know if I have the chops for it. But before the jam session, I just played and the drummer, who showed up early, just played all these tunes with me. Windows, Dolphin Dance, Giant Steps, etc.

I didn't realize that there's something different about the trio that should give me more confidence. I'm more in control and it's actually less stressful. Also the tunes tend to be what I like and practice more. I don't practice much A-Train and such but that's mostly what I play with the big group.

The drummer was praising me and said he wanted to do a trio with me.

Thoughts on trio vs. bigger band?
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#1731304 - 08/11/11 08:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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trio is the ultimate vehicle for piano playing I reckon. quartet is good as well as long as the horn is really good.
I like playing with guitar as well but it takes some work so make it work well. Better for originals than standards.
so go for the trio i think, at least try it out properly and see how it feels
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#1731345 - 08/11/11 09:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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I'm going to do Naima as a trio tomorrow. I'll see how it works out. I worked on it with my teacher today. It should sound different from my last recording of it.
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#1731362 - 08/11/11 09:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Yeah Trio is what really separates the men from the boys so to speak.

When I was coming up, learning about jazz and doing a lot of playing in the '80s and even '90s, I thought Quartet or even Quintet was the s..t. wink Now that I look back I feel glad I progressed the way I did I guess. I had the opportunity to comp a whole lot behind horns. That was invaluable.

Even when I made my first CD, at a not so young 38, I still didn't get *it*. That is, why so many players (and not just piano players) were infatuated with just playing trio. I always felt the horn had to be there for one reason or another.
Around the late '90s I guess I started listening more to Trio records---early Bill on Riverside, KJ's stuff, Kenny Barron, Hank Jones and basically everyone doing trio.

At first I felt out of place or naked without the horn and then slowly but surely, the more I did it and the stronger I got, I could see why all piano players favored the trio--I started to *get it*.

You are integrating all your "piano voicings", everything that pertains to you has a piano player is more under the microscope. The way you interpret the melody, groove and form.

It's MORE on you--of course you are striving for a "one voice" type ensemble with the bass and drums. You can't do it without their sympathetic support. Sometimes finding that right bass player and drummer can take what seems like a lifetime...

Overall the whole musical picture becomes much more a personal statement then with the horn. Not to say you can't have *your trio* and then have a horn player to add the spice. But in general I've found that the bigger the band, usually the less space for us and the less it is about the piano.

Never liked working with guitar players, except for Larry Koonse , wonderful player and very sympathetic to the piano. cool thumb

Like David said, if you have originals where you want varied and different colors or textures and your writing is strong enough for a large ensemble, it can be very cool.
But just to get up there on EVERY tune where it's....ok play the head, ok Tenor solo, ok Trumpet solo, ok now piano or guitar solo and oh yeah let's not forget the bass solo and trading with the drums--for me it's big time sleep


Edited by Dave Ferris (08/11/11 10:11 PM)
Edit Reason: changed and added thoughts..
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#1731451 - 08/12/11 01:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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I have to admit, the horns are a security blanket. Someone plays the head; the audience thinks it sounds sexy; and piano solos are shorter.

I do have the fear that the audience may think the piano trio format is too sophisticated. And in some ways it is true. Typical stuff I would think to play in a piano trio is not the type of tunes I play in a combo. Certainly Cantaloupe Island is not as well suited or other groove based tunes.

In my case, I play modern jazz so I'm not going to be heavy on swing standards.

Then there's the volume issue. The horns are loud and gets their attention. Pianos are subtle and sometimes you have to pay attention because of dynamics.

But after having tried to just do what I normally do at home playing to my BIAB/Aebeorsolds, I can play trio. I just have to tailor the tunes to what I work on most of the time.

There's a lot of energy to the bigger band I have now (Vocals, Bass, Drums, Sax, Trumpet, Guitar, Percussion, Piano). And it's this big group that the venue pays for and books regularly. Perhaps I should ask the venue how they would react to a piano trio. I have the feeling they might think it has a narrower audience.
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#1731530 - 08/12/11 06:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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maybe keep your bigger band (slim it down a little maybe) for your gig and get a trio together for a few rehearsals and see how it goes. if the bigger band is fun to do and getting paid employment then that can only be good and it's best not to mess too much with a winning formula. just get a trio on the side and, if you enjoy it, try to get another gig with that. I am sure you will learn a lot even with a few sessions.
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#1731534 - 08/12/11 06:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Then again from a listener point of view I think quartet has a real lot to offer. piano trios are great to listen too when it is Jarrett or Bill etc, but a sax can really break up the sound and provide some well needed excitement and intensity in the music. I do wish that even Jarrett would sometimes play with a sax sometimes, as when he used to do that the music was often on another level of intensity. Variety is the spice sometimes.
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#1731601 - 08/12/11 09:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
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Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Hey guys... sorry I've been out of the loop for awhile. I've been working on marketing and search engine optimization for my local teaching website. Trying to get some new students here in the Chicago area. I can only stand so much computer time per day smile.

Knotty... all your tunes are sounding good! I do think the drummer occasionally drags on Cherokee, but in his defense, alot of the soloists feel like they're pushing ahead to me. The vibe solo locks pretty good though. By the end the tempo is only slightly slower so there must not be too much dragging? On Giant Steps, maybe you could learn to play the head in two handed quartal voicings.

Jazzwee... Naima was nice. I agree that the guitar gets in the way sometimes. I would suggest just going for it when it comes to keeping your place. You'll either get it or you won't smile. Your lines are sounding good, nice development and use of space. On up tunes like Mr. PC you could try dropping out the left hand when you solo. This always helps me sound better on up tempo stuff. Then you can just stab some two hand chords between the lines every now and then.

Beeboss... excellent as always on the Gismonti tune. The groove is killin'! When are you going to make a solo piano cd? I want one smile.

On my end, I'm actually set to get together with some guys to play on Tuesday. Haven't played with anybody in about 2 years! I have an old friend here in Chicago that I played with in grad school... a drummer. We're actually looking at maybe getting a trio going. I'm looking forward to it!

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#1731617 - 08/12/11 10:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Scott,
Thanks for your feedback. That is good advice.

Good luck with your new adventures!

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#1731621 - 08/12/11 10:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta

Beeboss... excellent as always on the Gismonti tune. The groove is killin'! When are you going to make a solo piano cd? I want one smile.


Thanks Scott, glad you liked it. I am always thinking of making recordings but I have given up making cds. I have enough boxes of unsold ones underneath my bed already!
It costs too much money that I never get back. I might set up a kind of 'print one up if I get an order' system if I ever get round to it.

Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta


On my end, I'm actually set to get together with some guys to play on Tuesday. Haven't played with anybody in about 2 years! I have an old friend here in Chicago that I played with in grad school... a drummer. We're actually looking at maybe getting a trio going. I'm looking forward to it!


Sounds fun, good luck with it. I should get a trio going as well.
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#1731694 - 08/12/11 12:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
We let a horn player go over a year ago and have been playing as a trio ever since (except when we add our singer). The two things I find are that:
1. It's much more mentally exhausting to play a couple of sets. Except when you are comping for a bass solo, you're "on" the whole time. Head in, solo, head out. Also, you are clearly the focus of attention.
2. You need a healthy dose of confidence. When we started, I felt like I wasn't good enough to be the focus of so much of the music. I'm getting a bit better, but I still feel at times like it's too much me.

Where actually trying out a new sax player this weekend. I hope he works out, but there will be times, if he does, that I'll miss being the focus of attention in a trio, despite all that I said above!

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#1731742 - 08/12/11 01:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: jjo
We let a horn player go over a year ago and have been playing as a trio ever since (except when we add our singer). The two things I find are that:
1. It's much more mentally exhausting to play a couple of sets. Except when you are comping for a bass solo, you're "on" the whole time. Head in, solo, head out. Also, you are clearly the focus of attention.


There is that. But then again, I play solo piano which is even worse. An hour of that and I'm exhausted and you have to keep thinking of putting some rhythmic "something". At least with a trio that's one thing off the list. And you get the occasional Bass Solo break.
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#1731748 - 08/12/11 01:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
maybe keep your bigger band (slim it down a little maybe) for your gig and get a trio together for a few rehearsals and see how it goes. if the bigger band is fun to do and getting paid employment then that can only be good and it's best not to mess too much with a winning formula. just get a trio on the side and, if you enjoy it, try to get another gig with that. I am sure you will learn a lot even with a few sessions.


Well that's the problem. What I want may not be what the venue wants. Also, typically you'd want a quieter audience for a trio setting and if you listen to my recordings, it's loud.

Of course I can't control the paying gigs, so what I'll do is just intersperse trio tunes in the middle of the big group every once in awhile. At least to get a good feel of playing in that style.

BTW - although my group is big, I don't pay the extra guys. They just want to sit in. The paid members are the rhythm section, sax, vocals. But it sure is nice to get paid. Maybe it's why the musicians flock to me like honey. smile
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#1731763 - 08/12/11 01:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta

Jazzwee... Naima was nice. I agree that the guitar gets in the way sometimes. I would suggest just going for it when it comes to keeping your place. You'll either get it or you won't smile. Your lines are sounding good, nice development and use of space. On up tunes like Mr. PC you could try dropping out the left hand when you solo. This always helps me sound better on up tempo stuff. Then you can just stab some two hand chords between the lines every now and then.


Thanks for the comments Scott.

I'll be playing Naima tonight at a gig. When I had my teacher listen to that recording, he trashed me pretty well. He called it "so-so". He wanted it even more melodic and not so scale sounding. So we'll see what it sounds like tonight. I've only had overnight to absorb what he taught me. smile
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#1732080 - 08/13/11 05:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Scott, it must be really difficult to start from scratch with students. I really feel for you. But I'm really glad to hear you're getting together to play out. Maybe get a sax player to ease the load for a bit since you talked about some confidence issues before.

Keep us updated on what's happening and when you finally succeed in recreating your student base. Why did you move BTW?
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#1732081 - 08/13/11 05:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Here's a sampling of what we played last night.

Swing - I discussed this as an issue at a prior gig so this is the same drummer and I felt really swinging. He stuck to the ride cymbal pattern and it just felt right. Here's a couple of swing samples. I posted Autumn Leaves in the Autumn Leaves thread for posterity.

There Will Never Be Another You
http://www.box.net/shared/y99c8y1eua8gxb5seq06

Summertime
http://www.box.net/shared/kxgvdiq604ihagt2puj8

Ballad - this sucker was supposed to be double-time latin feel and the rhythm section didn't do that so it really screwed me up. The obscure rhythm used changed my whole hearing of the thing. I was planning on playing some simple melodies and I was just too confused.

Naima
http://www.box.net/shared/zq5gy8arvhnudykj5lvn

Groove Tunes - I did a pretty extensive scat solo on Cantaloupe. Each time we do this, it's an adventure. I never know what's going to happen. Footprints -- I was going outside a few times but it didn't seem to work with the bass.

Cantaloupe Island
http://www.box.net/shared/okca2x02t5azi59n66ph

Footprints
http://www.box.net/shared/vrbbh4nov7dsnh5h8e8y

In all these, there was something wrong with my keyboard setting and it was sounding metallic all night and I just wasn't responding to it. I never got the round tone I was looking for and it was to late to figure it out. The touch setting was wrong.
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#1732481 - 08/13/11 07:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
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Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Hey jazzwee, sounds good! The groove on the swing tunes is nice, especially Summertime. The rhythm section is locking in well on both tunes but the solos feel a little more skittish on There Will Never Be Another You.

I think the concept on Naima is really nice. You play some great stuff in there. The first time around on your solo was excellent, but after that it starts to get a little long. I guess it would have helped if the bass and drums set up a different feel then. It kind of gets a little funky later which is interesting cool. I've always preferred on ballads to just improvise half or 3/4 of a chorus and then do the remainder of the head out... just to keep from dragging it out. But on this tune, with a nice change in feel you could keep it going.

I like the slap bass on Canteloupe Island in the intro. Overall it's a tight groove on the head. And the scat solo is good. There are a couple of times when you start to hold a note while adding more to it. Maybe you could experiment more with that.

The bass line on Footprints is cool too. Is this a different bass player? He sounds good. Yeah, there are some weird harmonic moments here. Outside playing can be tricky. During your solo it seems to work a little better. Bass is catching on I think.

Do you guys ever change up the solo order? I noticed sax and trumpet aren't always in the same order but it seems like it's always horns, guitar, piano, bass. What about trading with drums?

Nice stuff. I think your playing is getting more developed. Maybe the horn players will catch up with you!

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#1732484 - 08/13/11 07:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scott, it must be really difficult to start from scratch with students. I really feel for you. But I'm really glad to hear you're getting together to play out. Maybe get a sax player to ease the load for a bit since you talked about some confidence issues before.

Keep us updated on what's happening and when you finally succeed in recreating your student base. Why did you move BTW?


I'm lucky that I'm able to continue teaching a few of my old students in Maryland on Skype. Hopefully things will pick up with school starting soon.

I'm actually more interested in doing a trio. I like being able to set the tone of the group. We'll see how it goes.

We moved to Chicago for my wife, who is a steelpan player. She's planning to start a youth music program here with some of her old friends from grad school.

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#1732619 - 08/14/11 01:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Thanks Scott! Naima concept was all wrong from what I practiced smile Oh well. It caught me off guard because I'm looking at rhythm section with BIG EYES saying DOUBLE TIME FEEL. But they ignored me. So I was just trying to make it go.

Then there was the problem of the keyboard locked into 'Light Touch'. My presets got screwed up. So this tinny sound was coming out. This affected my playing all night. Like I couldn't articulate properly because the tinny-metallic sound would come out.

By the end of the night, I had already decided to dump my Roland FP7F. It turns out just to be a bad setting so it's fine now.

Anyway, these things just destroy the moment but I'm glad it didn't turn out badly.

We have a large group of regulars that show up at every gig. It makes it fun to play.
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#1732660 - 08/14/11 05:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
So you learnt some important things ...
- know your equipment, so if your settings get changed you know immediately how to get the sound you like
- communication on the gig can be tricky. If you want a certain arrangement then that is what rehearsals are for
It sounds like your gigs are going well, you are getting paid and learning important things. Congrats.
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#1732785 - 08/14/11 12:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Clearly there's a lot of things to learn Beeboss.

For example, I wrote down on the set list (and even discussed way before), that I wanted Naima to be "Latin - Double Time Feel - at about 120". Maybe I should have said Bossa so there's less ambiguity about the Latin. When I asked the Bass player what he thinks double time feel means, he said 8 beats to a bar. So I don't understand how it ended up the way it did.

Another typical problem area has been form. Is it AAB or AABA? Do you play Take 5 through the whole chorus or solo on A only? These kinds of problems are sometimes based on history of musician's experiences so sometimes I'm not able to predict in advance.

I still remember my biggest boo-boo. The sax player played Windows in a different key. We sounded like free jazz that day...

Often I use Jam sessions as a way to try out tunes. But unfortunately, difficult tunes like Naima, Windows, Dolphin Dance, Tones for Joan's Bones, Very Early, Giant Steps etc. hardly ever gets played because there's always someone who can't play it. There aren't enough high level musicians jamming that those can be exclusive only to a certain level.

War stories anyone? That would make feel I'm not alone.
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#1732874 - 08/14/11 04:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

For example, I wrote down on the set list (and even discussed way before), that I wanted Naima to be "Latin - Double Time Feel - at about 120". Maybe I should have said Bossa so there's less ambiguity about the Latin. When I asked the Bass player what he thinks double time feel means, he said 8 beats to a bar. So I don't understand how it ended up the way it did.


Sometimes things don't go as they should. Maybe the drums or bass couldn't find their way into the new groove, maybe they just forgot what they were supposed to do, who knows. With the best will in the world unexpected things sometimes happen on the gig, so don't worry about it.
Sometimes they are the best bits!

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

War stories anyone? That would make feel I'm not alone.


too many to mention. far too many.
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#1738772 - 08/23/11 01:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1732
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: beeboss

I just did my weekly youtube upload
A lively tune by Egberto Gismonti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMLiOOCdDXM


Just getting around to listening to this. That is most excellent David !

I'm embarrassed to say I'm not familiar with that tune or much of his work in general. I need to change that.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

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#1738826 - 08/23/11 06:56 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Dave I think you are lucky to have another musical genius left to discover!
To me Egberto occupies a very unique place and his music defies categorisation, part Brazilian folk part classical part jazz fusion all mixed up.

Here are a few things you may enjoy
This shows his piano chops …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Z_zQ4pV38&feature=fvst

This one blows my mind, the rhythms and intensity...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgYwA-6HC_g

This is just beautiful ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ-MxTq_h44

Listening to these it is easy to forget that Egberto is mainly a guitarist of amazing originality …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI4uZ9J402U&feature=related

I really recommend his solo piano album 'Alma'. To me it is a masterpiece.
'Folksongs' and 'Magico' all also amazing. And so many others ...
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#1741312 - 08/27/11 12:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California


A different kind of jazz... This was performed/recorded also by Kurt Elling/Kenny Barron.

I'm been trying to play his version of Body and Soul with this kind of melodic approach, and man, it is so hard to have that kind of concentration.

It's easier to noodle around and play lots of sixteenths. To have so much space and have every note have a purpose...so difficult.

Sometime this weekend, I'm going to give it a try.
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
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#1741360 - 08/27/11 05:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
It sure is a beautiful tune. (Elling version is called: "And we will fly")
Btw, on the same album: Night Moves, Elling wrote lyrics [Leaving Again/In The Wee Small Hours Of The Morning] and created a song based on Keith Jarrett’s improvised intro to "in the wee small hours" from his 1994 trio recording, “At The Blue Note”.



Edited by chrisbell (08/27/11 05:29 AM)
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I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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