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#2112985 - 07/04/13 08:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I actually forgot several spots like the 6ht and I synagogue where I saw Meldhau. Hr-57 re-opened also and hosts one of the more advanced jam sessions, as well as weekly concerts. And Westminster keeps jazz going also.
The Howard Theatre re-opened recently and The Mandarin Hotel keeps going with very nice events.

Yeah, come on out and visit!

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#2112993 - 07/04/13 09:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
Printer1: thanks for that insight. I actually have a sheet music version (not a jazz real book) of Out of No Where, and you are dead on. That F7 is a C minor chord. I'd been taught the back door turn around, which is the VII7, but you've shown the origin in the iv7 chord that is used so much in the old standards.

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#2112995 - 07/04/13 09:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By: jjo
Printer1: thanks for that insight. I actually have a sheet music version (not a jazz real book) of Out of No Where, and you are dead on. That F7 is a C minor chord. I'd been taught the back door turn around, which is the VII7, but you've shown the origin in the iv7 chord that is used so much in the old standards.


Jjo, very glad it was helpful and thanks for verifying that ...

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#2113085 - 07/05/13 04:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted By: printer1
In the 371 Bach Chorales (the bible of jazz voice leading as said by Fred Hersch), you'll find iv chords all over the place in major keys. It's a very common sound in tonal harmony. But what the Chorales also show about stuff like this is these things we call "chord progressions" are very very dependent on voice leading.


Interesting to know. Thanks printer.

For those interested, here's the source (or at least a pdf of it) that also has some more interesting info on Hersch and the one other book he uses in teaching... grin : http://www.fredhersch.com/press/articles/FredHerschKeyboardCoverStory.pdf

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#2113101 - 07/05/13 05:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Bob, thanx for adding in that link. ...

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#2113317 - 07/05/13 04:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
Just ordered a copy of the Bach Chorales.
There is so much Fred Hersch says I agree with.
I recently read a phrase from Mulgrew Miller where he said he doesn't play "interview music," by which he meant something that critics would love to ask you about because it was so new and novel, but really wasn't very satisfying music. As Fred says, it's not about playing a million notes in 11/4, it's about playing something meaningful.

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#2113396 - 07/05/13 07:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
jjo ... i think you're gonna some fun with chorales! if you want to talk about what you find in them post here or send a pm. fred's always been pretty single-minded about "meaningful" ....

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#2113498 - 07/06/13 12:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hey Bob
Thanks very much for the insightful Fred Hersch article.

Hey jjo
I'm really pleased you're into Fred Hersch. I love his new album Alive at the Vanguard.
If you listen to Tristesse, you will hear Fred's amazing solo in the countermelodic principles of the Bach Chorales.
Are you going to a jazz camp this summer ?

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#2113735 - 07/06/13 12:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
Custard: Glad to hear you like Fred Hersch as well. I've had the pleasure of hearing him twice in Chicago in the last few years. Got lucky and heard another great piano player last night, Steve Kuhn, making a rare Chicago appearance at the Green Mill. He's WAY underrated. Played with Kenny Dorham, Art Pepper, Art Farmer and many others.

And yes, I'm off to jazz camp tomorrow!. I go to the same one, called Tritone. It's VERY laid back and really just about hanging out for a week and making music with like minded people. But people come back year after year because it's so much fun. I think it's different than some of the other camps that are more serious.

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#2115270 - 07/09/13 05:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Question for jazz players: In how far do you guys use classical piano techniques in making jazz? When for example I see Lennie Tristano playing a lot of flat fingering going on... sometimes I see jazz pianists attack chord with really stiff wrists/fingers... but big possibility I don't have enough knowledge about piano technique.. maybe it only looks stiff.

When I try playing jazz I seem to float a lot more with stiff wrist above the keyboard compared to playing a classical piece.


Edited by Lost Woods (07/09/13 05:46 PM)

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#2115286 - 07/09/13 06:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Lost Woods]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted By: Lost Woods
Question for jazz players: In how far do you guys use classical piano techniques in making jazz?


My 2 cents: I think it depends entirely on who the jazz pianist is and to what degree technique is an element of their playing. Jazzwee, printer1, and some of the others could likely tell you how to construct a list of important elements that go into playing jazz and then to subjectively rank their importance as you see fit, but I think the great thing about jazz is that this differs for everybody and except for at some of the most virtuosic of levels (see my first example below), a variety of techniques can get the job done satisfactorily (see my second example)

Example 1: a very thorough classically-grounded technique, which is arguably a necessity for this style of playing


The pianist is Joe Gilman, recipient of the Brubeck Institute Award for Distinguished Achievement, Artist-in-Residence, and Director of the music program at the American River Community College, where I'm lucky enough to be able to afford to study at.

Example 2: an unorthodox, non-classical technique (he has better examples of this, but I like this video smile ) that would be unlikely to excel in the above environment. Is this is a bad thing? Not at all - I subjectively find his soulful playing among my favorites, great chops or not.

This pianist is Terrence Shider, a non-classical pianist that plays by ear; I don't have much information on him.

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#2115482 - 07/10/13 02:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Lost Woods]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Lost Woods
Question for jazz players: In how far do you guys use classical piano techniques in making jazz? When for example I see Lennie Tristano playing a lot of flat fingering going on... sometimes I see jazz pianists attack chord with really stiff wrists/fingers... but big possibility I don't have enough knowledge about piano technique.. maybe it only looks stiff.

When I try playing jazz I seem to float a lot more with stiff wrist above the keyboard compared to playing a classical piece.


I guarantee you that the technique used is exactly the SAME. Not every jazz pianist has top notch chops. Look at me. smile

But it's something I strive for. We just need to focus our "time" on different things -- mostly there's more of a need to be focused on, guess what, "time". Or Rhythm.

Because screwing up there will ruin any technique you could possibly have. Pianists with deep control over time can do amazing things like change the feel of a tune, and the swing feel in particular.

Due to the nature of the beast that jazz is, we're often more focused on speed, power, especially in fingers 4,5, legato, tone balance, evenness, accenting. We're less focused on the LH, dynamics, octaves, slow cantabile playing, etc.

Not that these skills aren't needed, they just tend to lag the others since there are other priorities.

I would disagree that there's any actual difference in touch as "tone" and "legato" is a HUGE thing in jazz because we're often playing single note lines. If anything, this aspect of playing tends to keep up with Classical.

There's a video by Hal Galper that says to Jazz pianists, don't do any special articulation in jazz (without thought), like long-short, long-short, etc. Everything must have a purpose in the sound or the rhythm.

You should listen to the "pianistic" jazz players. KJ, Mehldau, Fred Hersch, etc.

KJ's touch is unbelievable. He is controlling dynamics on every single note in a phrase at top notch speed. And we're not even talking about his note choices.

In any case, there's always a certain rawness to Jazz that Classical guys don't get. Jazzer's don't know what their fingers are going to play so it is not as practiced as a Pianist practicing the same Etude 4 hours a day for months on end.

AND NO - DO NOT PLAY WITH A STIFF WRIST.
_________________________
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#2115497 - 07/10/13 03:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Thanks Bob and Jazzwee, that is some very useful information. Certainly going to listen to the players you mentioned, like Meldhau a lot. Indeed now I'm thinking of it, Meldhau sounds a lot more classical.

About the wrist:
What I'm aiming on, I never see (these "wavy") movements for example like this:


In my eyes it looks like jazz players playing much more with fingers than the arm weight, but maybe I just don't notice this well. I understand that wrist/arm movement is a big part of certain sound, but I had the feeling seeing jazz pianists play they didn't take classical technique too serious. That was a wrong feeling I know now thanks to you jazzwee wink


Edited by Lost Woods (07/10/13 03:53 AM)

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#2115511 - 07/10/13 04:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
A lot of classical pianists do that excessive wrist action. I think they do it like conducting. Using it to time phrasing. Other than, it's a useless motion to me. Once the fingers touch the piano, they're all going to do it the same way (Jazz or Classical).

Of course in jazz, we're playing to the beat of a different drummer (pun intended). We don't need to imagine some rubato phrasing. We've got to be SPOT ON with the groove. And there's no time for excess motion.

It's true though that you will find a lot of top level jazz pianists that rely on finger power a lot. It's because of the kind of sound one needs to create. We're playing louder, often faster lines, and you need to be controlling accents on each note and that means we will tend to rely more on techniques those things. As you will find, playing piano is about multiple approaches to achieve a certain sound. There isn't really such a thing as one technique style.

But believe me, you can't play anything and achieve the right kind of tone without the same relaxation of the muscles and wrist that is done in Classical. Just understand though that the secret to jazz tone is perfect time, legato, and immense control of dynamics from note to note (particularly eighth notes). A few are gifted with this early on but the majority sound much less convincing (especially me).

BTW Lost Woods, I went to a Classical technique teacher early on when I felt like I wasn't getting technique instruction from my jazz teachers. It was only for a few months but the exercises lasted for years. We still talk about technique differences but clearly it is mainly because we strive for different effects.
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#2115512 - 07/10/13 04:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
we're doing a lot more of this kind of playing at gigs.

Free Improv
https://www.box.com/s/vxy3rd781t7048urymdw

There were several recordings but my Zoom fell to the ground and the SD card door opened. So I lost the recording. So this particular one has no piano solo.

I find this kind of refreshing. No particular changes. Just modal. Sounds....Jazzy.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
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#2115745 - 07/10/13 04:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Lost Woods ... technique is technique. No need to separate jazz from classical or any other style. If you're looking to develop your technique find a way to study with a great teacher. It really is THAT simple. Also, avoid stiff wrists!

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#2115905 - 07/11/13 12:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Bobpickle]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: Bobpickle




The pianist is Joe Gilman, recipient of the Brubeck Institute Award for Distinguished Achievement, Artist-in-Residence, and Director of the music program at the American River Community College, where I'm lucky enough to be able to afford to study at..


I know Joe just a little. A great player as you can hear ! Years ago my wife and I almost relocated up to the Sacramento area to follow her gig. I talked to Joe about the scene up there...he said what scene ? laugh Needless to say, we stayed in LA. Anyway good to see Joe mentioned.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2
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#2115935 - 07/11/13 02:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I talked to Joe about the scene up there...he said what scene ?


Hah, yeah... sick

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#2117676 - 07/14/13 08:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Bobpickle]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1986
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: Bobpickle
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I talked to Joe about the scene up there...he said what scene ?

Hah, yeah... sick


Yet, Sacramento is close to San Francisco. My father grew up in Sacramento. He showed me the park in front of the Capitol Building. Said that was all there was to Sacramento when he was a kid. Turned me around, showed me across the street from a far corner of the park. My grandfather had a cleaners there until he couldn't take the heat anymore. That was on the edge of town.

Seems the basic thread isn't getting much traffic. Anyways....Wondering what you all think of Emily Bear. She likes Jazz. She seems to be developing her own style. Closer to Bill Evans than some of this recent 1/32nd note stuff. I'm just waiting and watching for her to grow up and see what she does. Her most recent album has Jazz.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2117733 - 07/14/13 09:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: rnaple]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
With all due respect, Ms. Bear strikes me are a novelty act at this point. Will she develop into an artist, I hope so, but who knows.

If you are disappointed with today's jazz piano players, I'd suggest listening to more. There are incredible players out there to suit everyone's taste. If you like Bill Evans, try Christian Jacobs. He's the regular player with Tierney Sutton, a great singer. He plays much like Michel Petrucciani, and thoroughly lyrical player from France (and someone you might want to check out). The try Fred Hersch. They try Eric Reed. They try, oh well, there are so many!

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#2117737 - 07/14/13 09:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
Just back from jazz camp. A wonderful experience, as always. This camp is equal parts social experience and music.

Here's the approach from the piano player for adding harmonic variety to your playing. He suggests the "big three," which is three ways of adding a chord as to approach a target chord. You can approach the target chord from it's dominant, the tritone sub for the dominant (which is the dominant a half step above your target note) and a fully diminished chord a half-step below the target chord. He played Happy Birthday and made it sound great by loading it up with these approach chords. You can also approach the approach chord using these techniques, thereby adding two chords ahead of the target chord. I love this approach harmonically and use it in ballads. The problem in using it in even medium tempo numbers is rhythm. You need to hit the approach chord in the right spot rhythmically or it just doesn't sound right.

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#2117757 - 07/14/13 09:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1986
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: jjo
With all due respect, Ms. Bear strikes me ...


I appreciate the honesty. Truly....

Originally Posted By: jjo
...If you are disappointed with today's jazz piano players,..


I can't say that. I'm not interested in getting into what I prefer. That's irrelevant. I do and have always loved the mind of jazz. The creativity. I appreciate the names to check out.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2117807 - 07/14/13 10:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey guys,

I'm also back from camp.
Thanks to Chris, I have a recording of the final performance, And here it is:
http://snd.sc/1aGdqsG

Having Rufus Reid coach our combo the entire week was incredible. He gave me no slack. I have lots of stories.

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#2117808 - 07/14/13 10:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: printer1
Originally Posted By: jjo
Printer1: thanks for that insight. I actually have a sheet music version (not a jazz real book) of Out of No Where, and you are dead on. That F7 is a C minor chord. I'd been taught the back door turn around, which is the VII7, but you've shown the origin in the iv7 chord that is used so much in the old standards.


Jjo, very glad it was helpful and thanks for verifying that ...


Printer,

We had theory classes at camp each morning, and in one of them, Pat Harbison went pretty heavily into soloing / reharm options. At one point, he explained the concept of the backdoor dominant. What's funny is that the guy next to me said: "Well where would you use that", because really it's pretty far out. And I said "No, not that far out, it's in Out of Nowhere".

Anyway, it's kind of cool I asked that very question the week before and it came up in context. Thanks for the help!

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#2117810 - 07/14/13 11:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
rnaple: If you hate all my suggestions, I won't be offended! In fact, I've got plenty more. One of the great things about You Tube is that you can sample an artist without committing to purchasing a CD. Happy hunting!

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#2117922 - 07/15/13 08:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hey jjo and Knotty
Welcome back from camp and thanks for sharing your experiences.

Knotty
Congrats for auditioning into the Rufus Reid group. It must have been really hard to say everything you wanted in 1 chorus, well done.

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#2117926 - 07/15/13 08:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hi Cus,
Thanks for listening.
Yes, one chorus was way too short.

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#2118001 - 07/15/13 12:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
There was a piano player at my camp from Norway (between jobs) who was doing a tip in the U.S. the included three jazz camps. He did a week at Aebersold, a week at my camp (Tritone) and I'm not sure where the third one is. Wouldn't mind having that kind of time!

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#2118041 - 07/15/13 01:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Jo,

Some of the guys here, especially the kids were doing multiple camps, too. I guess it's one way to spend your summer break !!

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#2118631 - 07/16/13 04:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I've been looking at this standard called "How about you". You can find a leadsheet in the Realbook volume III.
The melody is pretty diatonic.

The chord changes however are quite hip.

How would you approach blowing on it?
One could follow Burton's method and find scales for each of the chords, but it changes very fast.

How about you? How would you approach it?

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