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I don't have a problem telling you what the chord progression is with what Scott was playing nor yours. I could probably write the chords out.

But if the tune is not something I often listen to, then some hint of the original melody would be needed.

Yours sounds very familiar but again, you guys do tunes I rarely ever play like Confirmation or Cherokee.

JW, what are the first 8 chords to Scott's tune? If you actually sit down to do it you'll know that it can't be mistaken for something else. I doubt you're taking the time to actually try it.

As for Knotty's tune, I haven't had a chance to listen to it, but if it is a bebop head I probably wouldn't know it. Is it bebop Knotty?

Oh how stupid of me. Yes it's pretty obvious.

But here's a case where I hear this tune differently than Scott. It's actually because of the melody that I treat it differently. I'm instead thinking of common tones over several chords instead of just 'playing the changes'. And that's why playing the changes threw me off here until I just thought of the chords themselves.

I don't do it to all tunes but this one in particular I do, like the A in the melody.

>> As for Knotty's tune, I haven't had a chance to listen to it, but if it is a bebop head I probably wouldn't know it. Is it bebop Knotty?
No. It's often played as a ballad, but it's one of Dave Frank's favorite tunes, and he tends to play it very fast. It's also one of my favorite cut-throat tunes, because of the treacherous difficulty and the first few measures. Enough said

I just did this and I have to say some bad habits have been ingrained here, at least in this particular tune. Some of it I explain as following the melody but clearly I've deviated here. And not consciously.

Thanks for the refocusing.

It's good that your hearing the melody when you improv... I do that too. But I'm also aware of how the melody relates to the harmony and how the harmony relates to the key. I think that if your focus is on common tones over several chords, that is probably why your lines don't connect as well to the harmony. Like the A you mention... which is an upper extension of the E-7b5, not a fundamental chord tone...or if your thinking about the key of Bb, it's 7, the leading tone which is also unstable. If you focus your ideas around those types of notes, it's not wrong, just more abstract. I like to be able to do both, and I think to pull off the abstract well it helps to firmly sense the fundamentals at all times so you can be in control enough to touch base there at least once in a while.

I can definitely see it in this tune. Like I said, I'm thinking common tones here mostly and that gets abstract as you said. I don't think I do that in a typical ii-V intentionally.

It definitely helps to have an outside party critique because after awhile I hear tunes a certain way and it may be habit forming instead of focusing on the harmony.

I don't think I'm out of the harmony in this tune. I just did this a moment ago.

http://www.box.com/s/vkaia0ehke2jicmpd90v

Yeah, sounds better. I can tell what tune it is . You really should try playing without harmony though, or at least play over pre-recorded harmony or bass to help you keep track and then remove the support and see how clear the form is in your lines. It's really enlightening I think and a great exercise for the ear.

For the most part its good. But to the point, you still seem to have some quirky, for lack of a better word, leaps between voices. It's almost as if you've expended your ideas in one range and need to refresh your thoughts somewhere else, but in doing so you introduce some weird intervals BEWTEEN the chords and phrases. Do another take, but maybe pay attention to when you are leaping more than a 5th. I think there is danger, but also real beauty, in knowing how to resolve leaps of 7ths, 9ths and 11ths properly. A resolution in all cases will be up or down a note within the scale note shared with the preceding chord and the one you're landing on. But not being aware of this may lead one to 'noodle away' from the leap leaving the ear sort of hanging and then trying to latch onto the next phrase.
Seemless solos are the ones where your ears aren't asked to do more than required (within the genre, I suppose)

I still don't know what Knotty's tune is! I listened to it a few times, but the bass frankly seems a bit weird, so I'm not sure if he's landing on chord tones on the one and three, or if there is something else going on.
Scott, since you know the tune, maybe you could post a version of the bass line w/solo on top?

Knotty's tune wasn't easy for me. After listening to it several times fragments of the melody just started popping in my head, so I stopped it and sang the fragments out to get it. And since I'm used to it as a ballad it took a minute for the pieces to fit together. If you still haven't figured it out by tomorrow I'll try recording it. I'm done for today.

Scep, your specific comment is very good. I will take that advice seriously and give it another try.

Nope. Still can't get it. I'm not sure I understand the bass line to be honest, and the melodic fragments don't bring any melody that I'm familiar with to mind. It sounds like the walking at times isn't within a key and you make some odd leaps to what I assume is a root note a number of other times that makes me think that maybe you're actually not playing the roots of the chords in on the one and three. Were you trying to obfuscate the bass line as well?
In any case I'll be really embarrassed if this piece turns out to be Stella again.

Cool groove Knots. I just sent you an email.

Cus got it.
Not stella! :-)

For another perspective, here's my take on Knotty's tune.

Lines only:
http://www.box.com/s/6z53jkb8emeb42nujeji

Lines w/ bass:
http://www.box.com/s/fjsjpx8ad10uf0tv588j

nice line Scott.

Thanks. I listened to yours again and I think mine sounds pretty much the same.

Great discussion guys! One that I look forward to participating in even next year.
On that note; Happy New Year!!