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#2133322 - 08/15/13 11:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 147
Loc: NYC
as long as KJ himself wasn't there also

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#2133325 - 08/15/13 11:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
Knotty: I've listened to the Bill Evans one multiple times. I think I even used to own the CD. I keep dipping into that archive. I don't think however, NPR has the Mehldau one available unless my searching skills have deserted me. However, in addition to Spotify, I found this link which seems to have it: https://myspace.com/marianmcpartland/mus...ad-mehldau-7760

He tells a great story of how, just prior to doing he show, he found out that on his parents' first date they went to see McPartland at the Hickory House.

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#2133352 - 08/15/13 12:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dfrankjazz]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: Dfrank
as long as KJ himself wasn't there also

Haha!

Jjo, I think I actually bought that meldhau duet. NPR seems to re-release interviews every now and then. But yeah, spotify is great. Do you subscribe or get the free version.

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#2133460 - 08/15/13 04:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
I subscribe,partially to get rid of the commercials, but also to support the musicians. There is some controversy over Spotify. While it's completely legal, some musicians complain they get next to nothing. Spotify responds that it pays the record companies a lot, and it can't help it if that doesn't trickle down to the musicians. My view is that I mostly listen on Spotify to stuff I wouldn't buy, so it's only helping the musicians, but I do want to support them, so I pay. For what I get, $9.99 per month is a bargain. For example, I recently explored in depth two great artists, Art Pepper and Woody Shaw. I don't know any other way to do this without something like Spotify.

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#2133656 - 08/16/13 02:09 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Played trio tonight as I mentioned before. Although it's actually the first time I've played trio, I really didn't miss a beat and it felt just like any other gig. I don't know how the recordings sound yet but as usual, place was packed and the tips keep growing every month...
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#2133670 - 08/16/13 02:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Here's one sample from tonight's gig. Singer dropped by and sang a few tunes. As you can tell she's quite a hit with the crowd.

Blue Bossa
https://app.box.com/s/c79on8hqv6m5g8b2ezfy
_________________________
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#2133774 - 08/16/13 09:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
JW,

Hang on to that singer. She is quite good.
And very nice playing on your end. This is the best I've heard you play, I think. Solid feel and nice comping for her.

Let us hear some of the trio stuff if you have any.

++

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#2133800 - 08/16/13 11:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 147
Loc: NYC
Hi phellow phreaks, I'll be in Seattle next week from Wed - Sat, if anyone would like to connect I'll be bringing some matzah balls for your consumption..

Dave

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#2133995 - 08/16/13 06:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Here's one sample from tonight's gig. Singer dropped by and sang a few tunes. As you can tell she's quite a hit with the crowd.

Blue Bossa
https://app.box.com/s/c79on8hqv6m5g8b2ezfy


good playing wee, who's the singer? the sound quality is a bit muffled though, could be the mic placement.

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#2133998 - 08/16/13 07:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Thanks Knots and Wind. Unfortunately the mic is just capturing ambient since there is no easy way to place it in front.

I didn't like my lines particularly but time seems very solid now. Hopefully, my rushing days are behind me.

Did you hear the crowd in there? There's a group of regulars that fill up the place and it's always packed. Really fun gig. We made close to $200 in tips alone.
_________________________
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#2134156 - 08/17/13 01:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
JW,
Hang on to that singer. She is quite good.
++


BTW this comment had me amused because it's the other way around. The singer is big time. Her husband is famous too. She has solo jazz gigs at all the world class joints in LA. I'm lucky she sits in with us. it's only because my regular singer IS HER FATHER.

Truly professional. Guides the band with body movements. I'm sure she's laughing at my meager piano chops since her husband is a classical pianist and composer (of soundtracks of many well known movies). So I'm lucky she tolerates us. Probably so I don't fire her father. LOL.

Fact is -- I can't afford her. But she is willing to do gigs with me in the future (she says).

Audience knows that she's better than her father (who's no slouch either). He's playing percussion on the track.
_________________________
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#2134180 - 08/17/13 03:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
The singer above dropped by and did 3 songs with us. So here'e the 3rd one. Totally pro. My job was to make sure I don't take the focus away from her. I do take a solo here but not too much and I tried to keep my comping tasteful. I think the trio did a good job supporting her. And of course every tune is in some new key (this one a half step up).

Summertime
https://app.box.com/s/p8th6kik7ofwfbw16b0h

And for trio only (no singers) here's one. Nothing special. Tempo was a little too slow for me.

Footprints
https://app.box.com/s/nsdmbqhliyu95v5wqy8a


Edited by jazzwee (08/17/13 03:56 AM)
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#2134204 - 08/17/13 05:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
hey guys just a simple question about this chord progression. Key is F major

F maj7 / F diminished/ G-7 / C 7/

In theory terms what would the role of the 2nd chord be, the F diminished. I've seen this recently in a few different songs. The other chords are easy enough, but would the F dim be considered a passing chord, as it's not the V7 of G-7, but does sound like it resolves when you play it.

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#2134254 - 08/17/13 09:00 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 731
Loc: Leicester, UK
Wind,

You're on target hearing the F dim chord as a "passing" chord (in Fma7 - Fdim - Gmin7 - C7). You might try hearing the Gmin7 as a passing chord as well. The idea is the 1st and last chords (the beginning and the end or the starting place and the destination) are the essential ones.

If the middle 2 chords are "passing" you can build on that by substituting a million other chords instead The idea is keep what's essential and change the rest. Your ear and your taste (and how much experimenting you do) can decide what's "essential" and must remain and what's "the rest" and can be changed.

Another explanation is a drive through Barry Harris Land. Which means spelling from the bottom note to the top the progression is F A C D to F Ab Cb D to F G Bb D to E G Bb C. Or spell the 1st chord (bottom to top) as A C F G and continue with Ab Cb D F to G Bb D F to G Bb C E.

These 2 examples hold common tones between chords and moving ONLY the notes that aren't in common. The technique is called "voice leading." How, when, why, and where you use voice leading is according to taste, style, etc. Here's a quick VL guide - not the best or the worst but it covers basics.

http://www.tonalityguide.com/tkvoiceleading.php

Here are some examples with the chord progression you posted.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/BasicVoice.png

There are many ways to explain all above. They come down to deciding what's and what isn't essentiall. Meaning keep what has to be there and change everything else as you wish.

Hope this helps -


Edited by Mark Polishook (08/17/13 09:01 AM)

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#2134535 - 08/17/13 08:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook


Here are some examples with the chord progression you posted.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/BasicVoice.png

There are many ways to explain all above. They come down to deciding what's and what isn't essentiall. Meaning keep what has to be there and change everything else as you wish.

Hope this helps -


Hey Mark
Thanks for your clear examples.
I especially liked:
(i) Ex 3 where you approached the G min 7 from a half step above.
(ii) the last Ex where you end on a C# min 7 with that nice unresolved quality. It sounds cool over a C6 chord.

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#2134672 - 08/18/13 04:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 731
Loc: Leicester, UK
CustardApple,

Thanks for your comments. I added a few more ties on that last example you commented on - to clarify what's held and what moves. And then I added one more example after that last example!

Hope that's helpful!


Edited by Mark Polishook (08/18/13 04:41 AM)

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#2134691 - 08/18/13 06:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Beautiful Mark, I replayed all the examples.
The minimal, at times zero, movement for each given voice is very easy/appealing to the ear.

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#2135187 - 08/19/13 05:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
hi Mark, thanks for answering my question. your astute analysis was very helpful and your comments on this thread are insightful. I listen to alot of Keith Jarrett and he's the master at voice leading. He has a technique where he will play the melody and bass note and fill in the chord a split second later. it's just beautiful.

Physically it's something the fingers need practice with, I am so used to playing mainly melody and perhaps an extra note with right hand, and chords in left.

His left hand comping is understated but seems to always play the right note.

I've gone through some transcriptions of his and one of his favourite chords is the sus to dom7.

So, say Gsus4- G7, it will be G-C-F / G-B-F , just one note moving to complete the tritone of the dom7.

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#2135188 - 08/19/13 05:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
Here's an example of that melody and then chord a split second later, listen to the intro:

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#2135191 - 08/19/13 05:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: The Wind]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: The Wind
Here's an example of that melody and then chord a split second later,

Also, it's a great example of using those 4 chords of yours: F maj7 / F diminished/ G-7 / C 7/ as an intro utilizing a C pedal.
Fmaj7/C, Fdim/C, G-7/C, C7
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2135261 - 08/19/13 09:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
JW,
Nice playing on Footprints. Kind of a different side of you. Sounds like you had a lot of fun there.

Wind,
Dave Frank describes some of these solo piano techniques in the 15 elements for the advanced jazz pianist.
Also the Bill Evans class has solo piano technique, and I think this one is described as "2 hit". 2 and 3 hits are very nice simple arrangement techniques that Keith uses a lot.
Of course, Keith has this voicing ability that's out of this world, but the idea is well described there.

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#2135429 - 08/19/13 01:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Sharing with you this video that was shot a couple of months ago, maybe early July. I didn't realize this was being taped and I'm obviously goofing around ... but I thought you might enjoy seeing me being silly. (that's an understatement now).
I have very little recollection of that evening. Lots have happen since then (including jazz camp). I don't think I was drunk because I never drink on a gig.

The video came like that from facebook. Cut out the way it is.


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#2135455 - 08/19/13 02:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Now that we all laughed pretty good, I'll ask a question that I already asked a couple of years ago (time flies).

I was just watching the bill evans interview again (thanks Jjo for the trigger).
Bill says that when he got to a certain age, he started analyzing tunes harmonically, so that he could play without sheet. That's a very interesting statement. Probably obvious to most here.
"Analyze so that you can play without sheet".
So I understand that the process of memorizing tunes is really tied to harmonic analysis.

I am 100% guilty of that. I've memorized many tunes, but only a handful can I play in any key. And the melody would probably be wrong.
I'm not even talking about the "hard keys". If you know a tune in -say- F, C, Bb, Eb and G, it seems reasonable to think that you do know the tune. And it's nearly impossible to do for lots of tunes unless those tunes are understood harmonically.

Many tunes are very similar. Beyond the form, even the modulations and movements are often typical. Yet, almost all "good" tunes will have some clever way to do something.

Take Skylark (been getting a lot of attention on the forum thanks to our friend here). Beautiful melody. The A section is really nothing but a chord movement in F (say you play in F). There's no modulation there. Just ways to go from the 1 to the 4 and back.
Skylark in F
We have a movement starting at the root and moving diatonically up to the 4th. Then back to the one, and then a b5 setup to go down chromatically.
So you'll have F followed by some kind of an B (either diminished or 7 with a #11). Then, as you'd expect, you go down to Bb, A-.
Next you'd think Ab but instead comes the tritone which does D- to G7. And that sets us up to the 2-5 turnaround back in F.
In the last 2 measures, we have a typical 1-6-2-5, but the 6 is minor, instead of what you might expect, dominant. (same as Miss Jones).

Ok, so now I have to memorize all this, and actually apply it if I'm going to play it in Bb.

Is that how you might memorize it?

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#2135478 - 08/19/13 02:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 731
Loc: Leicester, UK
Wind,

Yes, resolving the C to the B in the chords you mention is totally a good voice leading example. And that's great playing in that KJ video. A little voice leading, a beautiful singing tone, and smartly-placed pedal can go far.

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#2135494 - 08/19/13 03:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Sharing with you this video that was shot a couple of months ago, maybe early July. I didn't realize this was being taped and I'm obviously goofing around ... but I thought you might enjoy seeing me being silly. (that's an understatement now).
I have very little recollection of that evening. Lots have happen since then (including jazz camp). I don't think I was drunk because I never drink on a gig.

The video came like that from facebook. Cut out the way it is.



Nothing all that goofy. The rest of the band was actually acting stiff. smile Loved the way you would sing the lines. I didn't figure out it was Sugar till the head was played. Your articulation has changed btw. Liking your sound a lot. Are you mostly on EP?

I did Sugar at my last gig too but I didn't like my solo.
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#2135506 - 08/19/13 03:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
I don't really spend a lot of time worrying about transposing tunes in any key. But the good news is that there are hardly any new progressions to encounter in the majority of the tunes i've played. Because I'm always playing with singers, I'm constantly changing keys (using iRealB) and although I may not remember the whole tune, I certainly remember the progression and I don't even avoid E, A, D, F# anymore either.

So whether I've planned it or not, clearly, I have already memorized portions of lots of tunes in lots of keys.

Although it may be difficult to think of a tune horizontally without deep study of a tune, a quicky vertical approach (chord by chord) is something that requires no real thought anymore. By the time I see the approaching chord, I have some idea what to play (which of course is to outline the harmony).

On simple ii-V-I tunes, do we really need to over analyze further?

But to really delve into even the simplest harmonic structures like minor blues for example, something I commonly play, is really difficult. At least it is difficult to sound profound.

I'd really like to spend more time just focusing on simple progressions and just figuring out a way to make a real statement and not just "make the changes".

I like Chris' approach from the Camp. Just play with a single chord for a week.
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#2135509 - 08/19/13 03:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>Nothing all that goofy. The rest of the band was actually acting stiff. smile Loved the way you would sing the lines. I didn't figure out it was Sugar till the head was played. Your articulation has changed btw. Liking your sound a lot. Are you mostly on EP?

Thanks JW.
I play half piano (AP) and half electric. if the sound gets loud, I find the EP easier to hear and cut through. But it changes the left hand dramatically.
If I play trio, then I would play almost only AP.

If the volume is low and the acoustic in the room is decent, then I prefer the AP. For example, I can almost not at all do an intro with EP, whereas I'll more easily do a solo intro with AP.
And sometimes I change mid-song bank and forth.

I'd rather play an out of tune upright any day though.

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#2135519 - 08/19/13 03:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
JW,

I have a somewhat different approach than you do.

I like and enjoy playing tunes I haven't played before, many times just because I like the "fresh" changes and "fresh" melodies.
But I can't sound anything like I'd want to on a new tune. Often I hum along my solos. On a new tune, I'd almost never do it.

And I'll go even further to say that a tune I could play the first time through is probably not a tune worth playing.

I also don't really care about playing in weird keys. The few singers I played with were kind enough to either play the common key or a far away "easy" key. I haven't had to play Ipanema in E so far...
But I don't think memorizing chord changes is the way.

Someone care to do the roman numeral on the first 8 bars of Skylark? I'll give you the changes:
F A- | G- Bb7 | F B7#11 | Bbmaj7 A- |
D- G7 | G- C7 | F D- | G- C7|

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#2135526 - 08/19/13 04:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7100
Loc: So. California
Just curious though, Knots. If you see the changes to Skylark for the first time and play through it, do you really try to analyze it? I don't. I think I've abandoned the theory already.

I see those changes and I just see the notes available for me to play, pretty much immediately, specifically the harmonic outline.

I also see the common tones.

I used to study this so deeply but have since realized that I just need to come up with melodies over this. But I tend to look at it generically, i.e. as a progression and not this particular tune.

Have I regressed? Or have I gone too practical? Hammer away.
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#2135547 - 08/19/13 05:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: knotty

And I'll go even further to say that a tune I could play the first time through is probably not a tune worth playing.

I'm not sure you really mean this the way its coming across. Any tune can be played by good players a number of ways ranging from harmonically sparse and rhythmically straight forward ranging to altering everything and everything until virtually unrecognizable.


Originally Posted By: Knotty


Someone care to do the roman numeral on the first 8 bars of Skylark? I'll give you the changes:
F A- | G- Bb7 | F B7#11 | Bbmaj7 A- |
D- G7 | G- C7 | F D- | G- C7|

These aren't the changes I've seen, but then again maybe I've just played the tune for so long and have adapted and changed what I've liked that I've forgotten the original. In any case, I'd still look at most of this as either I, V7, ii or vi with their doms and subs.

I guess when I approach tunes I'm concerned with two separate things that you've pointed out: that there are commonalities between most tunes AND that there is something unique to each tune that the others don't possess. Striking the balance between the two is an ongoing project for most songs for me.
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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