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#2135570 - 08/19/13 05:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
Originally Posted By: knotty

Wind,
Dave Frank describes some of these solo piano techniques in the 15 elements for the advanced jazz pianist.
Also the Bill Evans class has solo piano technique, and I think this one is described as "2 hit". 2 and 3 hits are very nice simple arrangement techniques that Keith uses a lot.




hey knotty, do you have the video links for the DFrank or Evans techniques? I would like to check it out.
2 hit, sounds like an interesting name, I will try to get more info on it.

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#2135573 - 08/19/13 05:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>Just curious though, Knots. If you see the changes to Skylark for the first time and play through it, do you really try to analyze it? I don't. I think I've abandoned the theory already.

If I have to play it on the spot because someone called it, I dive in it and try to do as much analysis as quickly as I can. Need to make sure I got form, sections, repeats, coda, tricks. As quick as possible. That's just to be able to make it. But guaranteed it won't sound the way I want.

>>I'm not sure you really mean this the way its coming across. Any tune can be played by good players a number of ways ranging from harmonically sparse and rhythmically straight forward ranging to altering everything and everything until virtually unrecognizable.
They can be played, but... there's another level when you've played the tune for a long time. Like my buddy told me, you want those tunes that someone is going to call, like Out of Nowhere, and be able to think "Ok buddy, I got you". Anyone can play out of nowhere the first time around. But if you play it night after night for an extended period of time, now you got it.


>>I used to study this so deeply but have since realized that I just need to come up with melodies over this. But I tend to look at it generically, i.e. as a progression and not this particular tune.
yes smile. I think so. I think you need to continue to pick tunes and study them for an extended period of time. And I know you do that. But I don't just mean the tough tunes. You should see what Liebman does to Byy Bye Blackbird. I mean that tune is pretty easy and trivial, but I'm quite sure when I heard liebman play itm it wasn't his first time paying it.

Take Bill Evans. How many tunes did he play, really?

I had a buddy that use to tell me he'd never play a tune out unless he had played it for at least a year.


>> Striking the balance between the two is an ongoing project for most songs for me.
And so patterns emerge.

OK, I shall be patient :-)

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#2135574 - 08/19/13 05:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Wind,

I think this is the class where he talks about the 2 hit / 3 hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpRpAShR9lQ

But the prob is that I may be wrong. frown

Maybe if he drops by he can tell us for sure which masterclass it was in. I remember specifically the blossom pattern form the Bill Evans class.

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#2135575 - 08/19/13 05:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
hey knotty, as for harmonic analysis on a tune like Skylark or many jazz standards, I don't even try to think of chord progression. I just break down the form to see where the modulations are. For the 2-5-1 stuff what I do is practice the specific key and figure out any substitution chords I like.

I find as soon as I over think while playing, that moment is already gone. The brain can't actively handle that much. I just focus on melody and the left hand is almost on autopilot.

Now on tunes with unusual changes, say Stella by Starlight, I'd have to break down each part and memorize the chords first and piece them together bit by bit.

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#2135578 - 08/19/13 06:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
knotty, can you give an example of what 2/3 hit is? Like which notes on the chord and how to play it. I will check out the videos now.

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#2135583 - 08/19/13 06:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I believe the 2 hit is what I heard in the KJ bit you posted.
Dave has very many categories of arrangement techniques so it is possible I am mis-categorizing it.

However, it is a stylistic thing, the fact that you hold down the bottom note, typically the root and then play another layer while typically holding down the bottom note. So 1 5 7, 1 5 10,
If you do
C then GE, that would be 2 hits.
If you do C then G then E, that woudl be 3 hits.

Typically 2 8ths notes then 1/4 note or 2 1/4 then a 1/2.

I have lots of written arrangements that showcase this, I can maybe scan a piece later and post so you see what I mean by 2 or 3 hits.

Simple but works great.

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#2135594 - 08/19/13 06:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
I see what you mean. I use that technique already, just didn't have a proper name for it.

So instead of playing chords as blocks or all at once, you outline it with the bass or a pedal point first.

Jarrett does that alot and I try to copy him! Although my hands aren't as big, so I can't do a C - G - E over an octave without releasing the first note.

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#2135601 - 08/19/13 06:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: The Wind]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: The Wind
Although my hands aren't as big, so I can't do a C - G - E over an octave without releasing the first note.
And from what I've heard. never does Jarrett.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2135606 - 08/19/13 06:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
talking of Skylark, here is my version...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2j4IHB6W9g

sad to hear today about Cedar Walton, I got to play piano duets with him once. It was awesome
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#2135626 - 08/19/13 08:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Cedar Walton -- oh my. That's a surprise. He's one I haven't seen. I've seen Mulgrew Miller many times, in contrast.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#2135631 - 08/19/13 08:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Knotty, I agree that to play a tune really deeply requires intense attention. But I'm not sure that lately I've needed to "analyze" it. I'd just sit and play with it for awhile and see if I can look at it globally (horizontally) or chord by chord (vertically) or something in between. With all the difficult tunes I've worked on, the "transitions" between key centers is really the only real issue on some tunes. But on a standard ii-V-I, or modulating III-Vi-ii-V-I there really isn't much of a mystery.

I guess I'm just distinguishing between the instinctive approach vs. a theoretical approach on harmony. Sometimes, it's useful to understand the theory to know if the minor chord is a ii, a iii or a vi since the scale is different. Or if the major chord is a I, or a IV. But aside from that I have lately just relied on my ears. That's me.

For example, I actually sat down and played that Skylark progression to see if there's any mysteries in there for me and I didn't really find any that would reveal anything different if I relied on theory.

Maybe this is what's different. I've gotten to a point where just by looking at the progression, I know what it sounds like BEFORE I even play it.

Nothing changes here. It is agreed that no one can play something well unless you practice it for a long time. I'm just trying to understand what theory adds to it other than knowing what scale to play (which should be automatic by now). I look at the Skylark changes and I see - F, Bb , C , etc...But in mind the real problem has nothing to do with the theory but is in hearing a melody that will go over all these changes in a cohesive fashion, which of course is difficult to do.



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#2135642 - 08/19/13 08:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Case in point of the theory is the Fmaj7 Fdim7 G-7 C7 that Wind was refering to.

Now I suppose I could have over analyzed this as well but realize that the idea of moving chords chromatically, in general is connected to tritone substitution. I could overthink this and say, well should the Fdim7 been an F#7Alt or whatever sub could be justified in theory? Or I can acknowledge that chromatic approaches in chords of various qualities are very common and I use them a lot in everything.

Often the difference in what is played from chord quality goes down to one note. So my mind just looks at it and says: I see that one note difference. Is it important for me right now or not?

Over this I realize that the bulk of solos out there just outline the harmony anyway. Chord by chord making the changes, playing the chord tones. It's when one deviates from this that I find that more thinking is required. But at least there's a baseline where one could always play to some predictable level.

I'm just curious about those that think differently from me. I used to be obsessed with theory and now play more with instinct and ears (which seems to be resulting in some improvement). I've been following the Kenny Werner approach of "There is No Wrong Note".
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#2135687 - 08/19/13 10:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Doug McKenzie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Australia
Wow David - Cedar Walton is one of my favourites - love his Maybeck Hall CD. Another great one gone!
And talking of Skylark, here is my version -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfLH2sfUDpY

Doug

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#2135704 - 08/19/13 11:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
jw,
remember that the initial question was about bill evans saying that in order to be able to play a tune without reading it, he had gone thriugh the process of analyzing the tunes harmonically.

thats a different topic than how to solo on a progression.

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#2135709 - 08/19/13 11:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
jw,
remember that the initial question was about bill evans saying that in order to be able to play a tune without reading it, he had gone thriugh the process of analyzing the tunes harmonically.

thats a different topic than how to solo on a progression.



Well then, I misunderstood and it makes sense now. As you were...
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#2135787 - 08/20/13 06:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Doug McKenzie]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Doug McKenzie
Wow David - Cedar Walton is one of my favourites - love his Maybeck Hall CD. Another great one gone!
And talking of Skylark, here is my version -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfLH2sfUDpY

Doug


Nice, loads of great ideas in there. If I had time I could get some good stuff from that.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#2135801 - 08/20/13 07:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty
Sharing with you this video that was shot a couple of months ago, maybe early July. I didn't realize this was being taped and I'm obviously goofing around ... but I thought you might enjoy seeing me being silly. (that's an understatement now).
I have very little recollection of that evening. Lots have happen since then (including jazz camp). I don't think I was drunk because I never drink on a gig.

The video came like that from facebook. Cut out the way it is.



Like.
You are hysterical.

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#2135828 - 08/20/13 08:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 126
Loc: NYC
real nice playing knotty

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#2135884 - 08/20/13 10:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
thanks stranger!

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#2135885 - 08/20/13 10:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>Well then, I misunderstood and it makes sense now. As you were...
That's probably because I ask questions that have no answers.
But I like to ask them anyway. Gets me thinking and keeps me busy wink

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#2136454 - 08/21/13 07:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Marian McPartland has past away. R.I.P
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2136505 - 08/21/13 09:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
A jazz piano hero.

Anyone still alive from the Harlem photo (a day in Harlem).

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#2136507 - 08/21/13 10:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: beeboss
talking of Skylark, here is my version...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2j4IHB6W9g

sad to hear today about Cedar Walton, I got to play piano duets with him once. It was awesome


Beautiful playing BB. I really like that deep touch you've got there. I'm always puzzled how you can record both parts and somehow make it sound like it was recorded together.

Doug, I'll check out yours next. And will start to work on my own.

Mine will be the best !!
;-)

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#2136521 - 08/21/13 10:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 625
Loc: Leicester, UK
I studied with Marian McPartland years ago in NYC. She was a very nice person and a fabulous teacher. She had the otherworldly gift of pulling obscure gorgeous standards out of about nowhere and playing them in whatever key struck her fancy at the moment.

One of her stories was about the NPR Jazz Piano theme. A theme was needed for the show . She made it up on the spot and recorded it in one take - the classic NPR Jazz Piano theme that EVERYONE knows when they hear it.

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#2136555 - 08/21/13 11:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty
[quote=beeboss]
Beautiful playing BB. I really like that deep touch you've got there. I'm always puzzled how you can record both parts and somehow make it sound like it was recorded together.




Thanks Knotty. I guess the bass doesn't really change what it does that much in response to the piano when playing a bass line at least. As long as the time and changes are solid then I can play against it.
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#2136556 - 08/21/13 11:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty

Anyone still alive from the Harlem photo (a day in Harlem).



Sonny Rollins
Horace Silver
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#2136560 - 08/21/13 11:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
I studied with Marian McPartland years ago in NYC. She was a very nice person and a fabulous teacher. She had the otherworldly gift of pulling obscure gorgeous standards out of about nowhere and playing them in whatever key struck her fancy at the moment.


Wow that must have been amazing
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#2136562 - 08/21/13 11:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: knotty

Anyone still alive from the Harlem photo (a day in Harlem).



Sonny Rollins
Horace Silver


Benny Golson
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#2139500 - 08/27/13 02:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Anybody know Barry Harris?

Apparently, he has agreed to do a Master Class for me in LA (he's in NYC). I'm organizing it.

Jazzers and jazz students near Southern California could attend this.

Lots of Jazz education videos from him on Youtube. I don't have a date yet because he'll be timing it to a gig. Likely towards the end of the year. PM me or post here if interested.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#2139516 - 08/27/13 03:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Very cool JW. I would've loved to come.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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