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#2139527 - 08/27/13 04:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Very cool JW. I would've loved to come.


Sure you can. Take a vacation in Southern Cal smile

I'm curious to learn about Barry's diminished scale approach to chords. Is it some variation to Alan P's Diminished Cycle? (which was more on dominants).

He still holds weekly classes in NYC.
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#2139588 - 08/27/13 09:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Jw,

That's really cool that you'll organize this for your community.

Some of his workshops vids on youtube are amazing, he's not just a great player, but a music philosopher. And he says it like he means it.

You should have a blast with this.

If you know someone that's got recording gear and is willing to set it up, that would be really great.

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#2139763 - 08/27/13 05:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Yes - I will set up to record.

One of the concepts he talks about is explained in this article below. Perhaps, someone can throw more light into this. I think I understand it but requires a lot of woodshedding in every key.

http://www.jazzand.com/Rick_Stone/Articles/JJG-2000%20Aug-Minor%206th%20Diminished%20Scale.pdf

If I understand it right, there's a diminished chord in the scale so he made these scale variations so you can move the chord around creating a little tension. Which, I presume is designed to leave the key for a moment with just the presence of the extra one note. And by specifically identifying a pattern in the scale as a diminished chord, it creates a particular sound.

So, if I understand it right, he made a sure there's a diminished chord in every one of the scales (major, minor, dominant, half-dim).

A bit more interesting sound I presume than just moving around diatonically.

Again, this is my interpretation but maybe some of you are actually familiar with this concept.
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#2139845 - 08/27/13 08:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Yes - I will set up to record.

One of the concepts he talks about is explained in this article below. Perhaps, someone can throw more light into this. I think I understand it but requires a lot of woodshedding in every key.

http://www.jazzand.com/Rick_Stone/Articles/JJG-2000%20Aug-Minor%206th%20Diminished%20Scale.pdf

If I understand it right, there's a diminished chord in the scale so he made these scale variations so you can move the chord around creating a little tension. Which, I presume is designed to leave the key for a moment with just the presence of the extra one note. And by specifically identifying a pattern in the scale as a diminished chord, it creates a particular sound.

So, if I understand it right, he made a sure there's a diminished chord in every one of the scales (major, minor, dominant, half-dim).

A bit more interesting sound I presume than just moving around diatonically.

Again, this is my interpretation but maybe some of you are actually familiar with this concept.


I believe in the major scale there is a half dim scale (b d f a), and he creates a fully dim by adding the lowered 6th degree (b d f a flat).
He goes on to say that this same set of notes can be used over Am7, but that most minor I would need different scale, since the 6th is usually natural and the seventh, if present, is raised as well.

In any case, does anyone know if when you're playing a tune in C major, and you are playing the G7 chord, that this theory equally applies? Or is it restricted to the I, ii, VI and vi? What about the iii Em7? Is it treated like the C chord too?
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#2139857 - 08/27/13 09:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 610
Loc: Leicester, UK
Jazzwee,

You've explained it exactly 100% correctly and clearly. You can interweave those dim. triads into your lines as you suggest. If you look in the Omnibook or Coltrane transcriptions or a lot of other places this stuff is all over the place. So it just comes down to practice, as you say.

Here are some simple ways to practice the concept with single notes. So, with 3rds:

C E
D F
E G
F G#
G A
G# B
A C
B D
C E ... etc..

With triads (as triplets)

C E G
D F G#
E G A
F G# B
G A C <-- the intervals in the scale cause this to happen
G# B D
A C E
B D F
C E G and etc. ...

With 4-note chords (as 8th notes)

C E G A
D F G# B
E G A C
F G# B D
G A C E
G# B D F
A C E G
B D F G#
C E G A and etc.

To go a step further - The dim triads in that scale add up to a fully dim 7 chord. Meaning if you're in C major you've got a B fully dim 7 chord to weave in and out of. So improvise for a few beats with a major scale or an arpeggio (whatever), go into notes from the dim 7 chord and back to the maj scale. You can find this stuff all throughout the CP Omnibook.

Another step (out) -

A dim. scale fits over that dim 7 chord. Weave back and forth between a major scale and a dim scale so that both go over the major 7th chord. It's a very common Herbie Hancock idiom. A simple way to hear it is play a major seventh chord in your LH and in our RH play a 1/2 step - whole step dim scale starting on the 5th of the key. So C maj 7 with a G dim scale on top. The dim. scale can resolve to chord tones in the C maj7.

In classical theory (meaning the textbooks in university music courses) those dim. triads are pieces of a G7b9 chord. Classical theory texts do a lot of stuff with V7b9 -> I.

For example, just as V7b9 goes to I so VI7b9 goes to ii. In other words, EVERY note in a scale can be treated as a temporary tonic and preceded with a temporary dominant. The "classical" term for that is "secondary" dominant. (Sorry if this all known stuff!)

It's used all over jazz but with different names... one person calls it this and another calls it that. Some don't call it anything!

Something else with that BH scale is those dim triads add symmetry into the mix. So in a manner of speaking that "simple" BH scale is a cousin to all of the complex symmetric scales in Nicholas Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales (which Coltrane used to practice from ... I'm pretty sure Coltrane spent time around Barry Harris too ...)

There's an ebook for sale on BH's web site that explains a lot of his concept. It's also explained very well here (actually, I think better here than in the ebook)

http://jazzworkshops.com/articles/evolutionary-voicings-part-i

I'd say the strength of the BH approach is it's based on very simple stuff that can get extended and extended out and extended out. And it's fairly easy to apply. But because it's simple but leads to a lot there are a lot of different explanations about how this stuff works. But they all lead back or flow from that basic scale.

Hope this helps. Am looking forward to hearing stories from your BH workshop.

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#2139962 - 08/28/13 01:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Mark, it is really great to know that there's applications to this from what's in the transcriptions. Is there a snippet that shows this?

I haven't looked at the scales beyond what's in the two scales in that article (Major and minor). Obviously I don't have to imagine that there will be diminished triads in a dominant since that is the simplest to figure out.

I've only seen this concept today but wow -- what a difference one note makes. Makes for an immediate interesting sound.

I was already planning to practice triads in the various modes of this scale.

Conceptually though, I've now seen several approaches to harmonic movement:

1. BH Six-Diminished Scales
2. Diminished Cycle Dominants (moving dominants in minor thirds)
3. McCoy Tyner movement in Fourths
4. And of course the original Dorian Mode - Diatonic Movement.
5. Chromatic movement

Anything else I haven't discovered yet?

Since I do a lot of modal tunes, this is great stuff to know. Should work nicely in ballads as well I presume.
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#2139969 - 08/28/13 01:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

I believe in the major scale there is a half dim scale (b d f a), and he creates a fully dim by adding the lowered 6th degree (b d f a flat).
He goes on to say that this same set of notes can be used over Am7, but that most minor I would need different scale, since the 6th is usually natural and the seventh, if present, is raised as well.

In any case, does anyone know if when you're playing a tune in C major, and you are playing the G7 chord, that this theory equally applies? Or is it restricted to the I, ii, VI and vi? What about the iii Em7? Is it treated like the C chord too?


I know he has a different scale for dominants. And even without knowing what it is, there are alternative diminished patterns in a a dominant. Ergo the use of half-whole diminished scales and substitutions in minor 3rds.

So I would NOT use the BH major scale or minor scale for Dominants since it would be more limiting.
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#2140051 - 08/28/13 05:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 610
Loc: Leicester, UK
Jazzwee,

Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Is there a snippet that shows this?


29 pages of (free) examples and a lot of explanation here

http://jazzworkshops.com/articles/evolutionary-voicings-part-i

the ebook BH sells from his site is 20 pages or so, maybe ore, with lots of great examples.

Here's are 2 BH transcriptions

http://www.freejazzlessons.com/wp-conten...arris-Solo1.pdf

http://barryharristranscription.s3.amazonaws.com/BarryHarrisSoloonMoosetheMooche.pdf

(found them by googling "barry harris transcription which led to http://www.freejazzlessons.com/ ... to credit the original source)

Another way to explore the BH scale is

Play them in contrary motion - starting on different notes of the chord.

The simplest example:

RH ascending

C D E F G G# A B C

LH descending

C B A Ab G F E D C

-----

A 'random' example (not really random ..)

RH ascending

C D E F G G# A B C

LH (descending and beginning a 6th below the RH C)

E D C B A Ab G F E

-----

A lot of easy counterpoint and 'moving voice' stuff shows up in contrary motion.

... because the BH scale has 8 notes and the built-in symmetry (with dim. triads) it truly is one of the the-more-you-look-the-more-you-find kind of things. The dim. scale is in the same category. The chromatic scale is too but that's A LOT to sort through - which is where the Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns becomes handy - as a way to organise possibilities

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~gross/Slonimsky/Thesaurus.of.Scales.And.Melodic.Patterns.Nicolas.Slonimsky.pdf

The BH concept can just as well move outside of any one key (which you mentioned) ...

(ascending triads)

C E G E
D F Ab F
Eb G Bb G
F Ab B Ab
Gb Bb Db Bb
G# B D B
A C# E C#
B D F D
C E G E

If you can find them these two recordings (or maybe you already have them)

Barry Harris at the Jazz Workshop (w/Sam Jones and Louis Hayes)
Preminado (w/Elvin Jones)

are classic trio dates.

Hope this helps ... ... the BH workshop you're sponsoring is going to be amazing.






Edited by Mark Polishook (08/28/13 05:23 AM)

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#2140407 - 08/28/13 07:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 123
Loc: NYC
Thought you mooks mite enjoy this new video..4 Improv Flows on ATTYA, the improv elements appear on the screen as they happen..

http://youtu.be/bdFgVOJzPAg

Dave F

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#2140507 - 08/29/13 01:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Mark, thank you so much for all those resources. Am starting to dig into it right now. Lots to absorb here.
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#2140508 - 08/29/13 01:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dfrankjazz]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Dfrank
Thought you mooks mite enjoy this new video..4 Improv Flows on ATTYA, the improv elements appear on the screen as they happen..

http://youtu.be/bdFgVOJzPAg

Dave F


Awesome Dave! Thanks for posting!
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#2140975 - 08/29/13 09:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Simpler explanation (to me):

It's really part two of my original post.

http://www.jazzand.com/Rick_Stone/Articles/JJG-2001-Feb-Minor%206th%20Diminished%20Scale%20Subs.pdf
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#2140979 - 08/29/13 09:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
So, as it appeared at the beginning, the Major-6th-Diminished has the same notes as the Bebop Major scale and the other the Bebop Minor scale. The difference though is that Barry appears not to use the extra notes as passing tones but instead looks at it as additional harmony.

The part that I have to try is the discussion about substituting one 6th diminished scale for another since there are many overlapping the same chord.

If I understand it right, since B-7b5 = Dm, you can exchange the harmony. So either you look at it as Cm6 with it's corresponding diminished 6th scale, or Dm6 with it's corresponding 6th scale. These are the kinds of harmonic substitutions that I can't comprehend right now because I don't know what it sounds like.

This was beyond what I originally understood (i.e. the one extra note).

So according to this approach, you could play a E-7b5 A7b9 Dm (minor ii-V-i) as (Gm Bbm Dm). Does this mean Gm6, Bbm6, Dm6 too as subs? I think that's what it means. No idea what that sounds like right now. Will have to sit on the piano and noodle.

Someone butt in if I'm misuderstanding this.
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#2141001 - 08/29/13 10:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I just tried it on the piano and I'm not sure what it means now.

So this is what I understand right now. Looking at a minor ii-V-I in Cm...

| D-7b5 G7b9 | Cm6 |

D-7b5 = Fm6
G7b9 = Abm6 or really Ab-(maj7)
Cm6 = Cm6 or really C-(maj7)

Aside from the change in Chord notation, the notes are the same. Yet it says "borrow harmony from diminished". What does that mean? All the notes in the scale are the same so at this point nothing is new. I wouldn't really be picking anything different here so far.

Now if I play it instead as:
Fm7
Abm7
Cm7
it sounds very different... But is that what it means?



Edited by jazzwee (08/29/13 10:22 PM)
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#2141004 - 08/29/13 10:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Mark, I just read your blog post #1

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/08/barry-harris-and-ideas.html#more

and that's very clear. On a major 6th diminished, you have the sound of V7b9 there. OK got that.

i.e., On C Major Scale, you have D F Ab which can be also considered a voicing for G7b9. So you can use that for Chord movement as well as a harmonic concept.

But in a minor 6th diminished, it's already Alt so not sure what it's adding there. Maybe I confused myself by starting with a minor 6th diminished.
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#2141198 - 08/30/13 05:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 610
Loc: Leicester, UK
Jazzwee,

I might not be understanding your comment. That said, the G# (or Ab) in the BH system in major and minor keys comes from adding it in as a passing tone between the 5th and 6th scales steps.

For the minor version the process is FIRST take the major scale, SECOND flat the 3rd, and THIRD put the G# (or Ab) in between the G and the A. Explained like this, the the G# (or Ab) aren't in the minor key to start.

Looking through the lens of a 7-note scale (traditional major and minor) gets you one perspective. Looking through the lens of an 8-note scale is a different view. With the BH scale that "different view" goes to a place overflowing with diminished chords and all possibilities they offer.


Hope this is helpful.

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#2141344 - 08/30/13 12:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Mark, OK. I understand the minor tonic chord. Extra note. Since I already look at the tonic minor as Cm6 or C-(maj7) the rest of the notes are as before. This could be useful in tunes like Footprints.

Now what about the rest of the ii-V's in both cases?
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#2141421 - 08/30/13 02:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 610
Loc: Leicester, UK
Jazzwee,

the ii-Vs in major and minor

A visit to the tributary has it all: http://jazzworkshops.com/articles/evolutionary-voicings-part-i

Print it out and you're good to go!

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#2141931 - 08/31/13 06:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 624
Loc: Chicago
Heard Barry Harris play in Chicago. Wish I could join you in la. He's a classic bebop player. P

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#2142641 - 09/02/13 02:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I think I'm getting the hang of the BH concept now. It really means easily visualizing all the applicable diminished chords and inversions at all times and then using it to voice lead with chords, or show movement with lines.

Not so hard to visualize since there are only 3 chords. But what is interesting is the voice leading sound. it sounds very inside actually which is nice to add to the other chord movements (like chromatic).

It's also nice to combine this with the other approach of substituting dominants along the diminished cycle as well. I can see they're related though.
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#2142836 - 09/02/13 02:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 624
Loc: Chicago
The player at my jazz camp favors leading into a chord with the diminished chord a half step below (in any inversion, of course). What diminished chords does Harris suggest using to lead into another chord? Or is this the wrong question?

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#2142845 - 09/02/13 02:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I think it's the same concept. It turns out to start on an inversion starting from the 7 of the scale. So it would be half step below the tonic. But there's only one note not in the scale (b6/#5).
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#2142914 - 09/02/13 04:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Here's a little controversy.

Should you practice jazz with a Metronome?

Mike Longo's answer: NO.

http://www.mikelongojazz.com/should-you-practice-jazz-with-a-metronome/
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#2142983 - 09/02/13 05:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Dfrankjazz Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 123
Loc: NYC
Lennie had us use the metronome all the time)2+4 is cool, it's like playing with the worst jazz drummer in the world.

DF

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#2143087 - 09/02/13 09:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dfrankjazz]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 624
Loc: Chicago
jazzwee: Your statement about using the diminished chord on the 7th note of the scale of the target chord lines up with what I was told for a major seventh chord. But what about a minor 7th. If the target chord is c minor, does Harris recommend the diminished 7th starting on Bb?

As for a metronome, I ask this question: how do you get rid of bad habits like rushing? I have found that playing with a metronome is great for getting me to keep a uniform tempo. When I play montuno's, for example, it is very difficult to play them accurately so that they line up with all the other instruments and the clave. A metronome is great for that. Maybe I would modify Longo's comment, which seems geared at someone on a professional track, to say that a metronome is good for development basic skills, but at some point you've got to throw it away and learn to play with an inner pulse.

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#2143150 - 09/02/13 10:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
jjo, if you think about it, it's the same as for a minor chord. If the chord is Cm7, the diminished Bdim is what you use, of which one of the inversions also hit the Ab. This really means taking a second look at minor chords again because the two notes which can be used for leading are the Ab and the B (#5 and 7).

Although obvious passing tones in bebop, what is interesting is when it used as a diminished triad with the intention of leading to the tonic tonality. I may have used it before as passing tones but not in the context of lines moving harmony. So it offers a different look at things.

Now I found this most interesting on the tonic chord mostly. On the ii-V's, there's probably many more alternative ideas on moving harmony. My opinion. For example, on a G7, it really offers only b9 and so you have to think about many other possibilities on alterations.
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#2143159 - 09/02/13 10:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I think that's exactly what Longo said. Although he claimed he knew how to feel the beat by 4 years of age so he didn't look at needing long term metronome practice. In my experience though, it takes a lot longer than a year to learn to control muscles to move exactly and evenly. So I think he overstates that part.

Presumably once you can maintain evenness then it's a matter of pulse. Now that I've begun to conquer rushing, I've realized that it's really about focusing on the listening to the rest of the band. It takes awhile to get to the point where chords, blowing, subs, etc. go in the background and the mind can be in the foreground listening to the pulse. But now that I can pay attention (with less effort), the rushing seems to disappear.

In that case, it's more of "reacting" to the pulse I think than necessarily following a metronome beat. So my guess is that these are two different practice elements.

Not sure though that there's ever a time though when practicing evenness becomes uneccessary. I would assume it's essential to maintaining chops.

Maybe it's easier for Longo since he already has the chops.

But I will admit that I seldom practice with the metronome now. Not because of anything said here (first time I saw the article). I think it is possible to practice evenness without a metronome just from slow playing and being conscious of every motion. Since my rushing diminished greatly, then I presume it works.
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#2143229 - 09/03/13 02:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 610
Loc: Leicester, UK
jazzwee and jjo ...interesting discussion of longo ...

about moving harmony and passing chords - the 371 bach chorales are the motherlode

http://imslp.org/wiki/Chorale_Harmonisations,_BWV_1-438_(Bach,_Johann_Sebastian)

passing chords, diminished approach chords, wild modulations, all usual and also very clever clever ways to use dissonance, unexpected resolutions, unexpected dissonance, beautiful lines, novel spacings and doublings ... moving bass lines and moving lines in general. it's all there .... every single chorale is a gem.

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#2143251 - 09/03/13 03:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Unfortunately, I get a headache from sightreading. I avoid it like the plague...
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#2143298 - 09/03/13 07:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Too bad Gyro's left the scene. I always enjoyed his hammer story.

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