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(1) Assume that each phrase stands by itself and it is made to start and stop in a structure that fits the bar. Random space inserted
(2) there is an underlying rhythm and the pianist's phrase is starting and stopping in conformance with the underlying rhythm (polyrhythm).
The samba one is a good example. One can imagine the samba rhythm going in one's head and if that structure exists, I believe it changes the phrasing.
This is my theory at the moment:
I think that the '(2)' method can change someone's sound so the rhythm isn't random.
That's a great way to think about it. In line with your number (2), my premise is that the more you understand different levels of the pulse the richer your vocabulary will be, and the easier it will be to switch between different kinds of syncopation. I would add that drummers do use space, though certainly in a different way than Piano players. Steve Gadd is a master of it, but this is generally in the context of leading into a new section, or a 'fill', though also applies to groove playing.
This is all great stuff! Much needed. I'm doing my best to understand... everything makes sense mathmatically speaking but I really have no idea how to go about putting it all together and really hearing it.
Thanks Scott. I know it's rather dry on the page. But then so is all music, haha. I'm currently discovering the world of minor harmony derived from the Harmonic scale and how to voice minor ii V Is, fun stuff. There is so much to learn! I will put some examples together on the Digital Piano once I get it MIDI'd up. Just installed new gear recently. Got a lot of cables to sort out.
BTW When he counts in five he isn't actually playing in five. Reminds me of the kid who thought he was playing in seven. He was counting 'One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, SEV, EN' Those last two syllables turning it into 4/4!
Hi RR, yes I'm glad you picked up on that too.
Originally Posted by riverrun
Vocalising phrases is certainly the most musical way, but I still find counting very useful. For example if you are playing in seven it's really useful to feel it is as:
One Two Three and.
Did you mean One Two Three and and? (as in 1 + 2 + 3 + + ) Or is there another way that the 'and' is extended?
And thanks for all the great illustrations and examples thus far. Seems pretty thorough!
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
It's a much nicer way of feeling seven than the classic Prog Rock / Genesis style of 12345671234567 (sorry to any Genesis fans!), which feels like you are about to fall off a cliff at the end of ever measure.
Two examples. First is in 7/4. Second is in 7/8. Hope that clarifies things.
Yes I get the 7/4 that Mehldau does. I didn't realize there's a name for that (7/4 halftime feel).
Of course the complexity isn't in a single meter. It's the overlapping of meters where the application to all this is.
Apparently in Dizzy Gillespie's mind, Bop is polyrythmic. So based in this, the task for a jazz pianist is to have the ability to think polyrhythmically at all times, and even over the barline.
I think most of us fake this. Man, if we master this (you drummers have an advantage), the phrases will sound fabulous and in the groove.
I'm going to see Brad next Wed. play solo at Carnegie/Zankel Hall next Wed. The last time I saw him there was one of the great solo piano evenings ever..should be an interesting followup to this past weekend's Keith concert..
Well Dave, it will presumably be the same set he'll be doing tonight. I'm excited. I'll be polymetric (polymetered to death) by the time the concert is over I'll give a report.
As I said earlier, I think Mehldau subdivides in additional ways even in 4/4. I feel it in his playing (the beat is slightly offset in his lines particularly stops/starts). But I can't define it exactly.
Maybe someone at your level can get a better grasp.
EDIT - hmmm...he's not playing Solo tonight so likes what you're seeing is different.
I think most of us fake this. Man, if we master this (you drummers have an advantage), the phrases will sound fabulous and in the groove.
Well said. There's many different approaches to getting there I guess. I'm at the nascent stage with the piano were I am still analyzing everything, but it's an exciting stage because you know how much there is still to explore, fresh sounds. I just recently played the chords to 'Moment's Notice' by Coltrane, from the Levine book. It's a tune I've always loved. It was incredible to me that the keyboard could produce that (if you know what you're doing). I want to progress as fast as I can having started at 38! Enjoy the Mehldau gig. I'm gonna see him in DC in March
Found this.. Brad at 1:23 here phrases as the off-beat 16ths (the 'e' and 'a') from my little clapping exercise. You can hear his left hand state the time against them. There's some amazing phrasing in this solo. (I've linked to a couple of seconds before in the vid, you can do that by right clicking on a video on YT and choosing 'copy video URL at current time')
First of all Brad and orchestra packed the Disney Concert Hall just like KJ. To see him pack a Los Angeles hall with 2000+ people is amazing. Obviously he has reached star status here. I didn't think that many people knew Brad or liked him, particularly in a town where 50 people would show up for a Kenny Werner gig. This is the big time and it was the best concert I've been to. Ever.
The concert is basically a replay of the latest Highway Rider Album so it's like a mix of Classical, Pop, and Jazz with his usual approach of odd meters and polyrhythmic approaches.
It's almost like our discussion today was a preview of what I was about to hear. I have to tell you that I lost track of some of the meters. Some were very long. One I counted to 14 and figured it was some 7/4 pattern. Then it shifted. I was confused. Did it become 11/4? I have no idea. The patterns were not the usual 7/4 in the video. Like it went 4442 at one point.
I've never seen him live before and just the thickness of the sound with just him and Joshua Redman on Sax was just amazing. It sounded like the whole orchestra was playing and it was solo piano. Well guess what he's doing. Ten fingers all doing something.
When he gets into solo mode and gets into his two handed routine with really fast ostinatos and rhythms, he still controls the dynamics in an incredible way.
Again the lines are just as we're talking about here. I'm a big fan of Mehldau primarily because I notice the unusual rhythmic patterns in his lines. This is the rhythmic displacement stuff that occurs as he solos and includes overlapping meters. At one point the rest of the band and even the Orchestra conductor were clapping hand rhythms (polyrhythmic of course) while he played.
Of course all of this can be heard on the album so maybe it will be easier to analyze listening to it again. However, if you're looking for Mehldau solos, he really doesn't play that much in all of this. There was only one trio tune. The rest featured orchestra and Joshua Redman, and he played a little here and there.
I really wanted to just see him in a trio setting.
But as an overall experience of musicality, it was a touching experience. There's something about hearing this all live that just made my digital piano and my headphones listening on an Iphone sound so fake. Usually I listen to jazz in small venues so hearing this in a concert hall with a full orchestra backing him up was like listening to polyrhythmic classical piano with a symphony. The Steinway was incredible. Disney Hall acoustics are state of the art, being a newer structure.
Maybe that's what drew the crowd. I don't know. All I know is that this is not your 'father's Jazz'. Whatever we call it, it is pure Mehldau. Just like I expect.
I'm just so energized by the rhythm and his fabulous solo lines that I had to play piano when I got home...
Sounds like a great concert! I'm going to try to get tickets to see him in DC also. I saw him here a couple of years ago with his current trio...it was awesome!
Ok so here's what I'm wondering amongst all this rhythm stuff. This is something I probably should know, but oh well.
I don't really understand how sixteenth notes are dealt with in swing. I play them, but I don't know how! Logically it seems that if the rhythm section is swinging eighths with a triplet subdivision, that sixteenths shouldn't really lock in anywhere except on the quarter note, but it doesn't feel that way to me. Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to it?
Does this have anything to do with subdividing the quarter note into 5 or 6 parts? Rhythm has been vastly overlooked in my education.
Jazzwee, great feedback on the Mehldau concert. A trio setting would be my preferred option too but it sounds like you had a fantastic time! Just reading your post made me go to the piano and I wasn't even there!
Scott and Knotty, good to know you are both in the area!
And Scott, I'm working on a couple of ideas that might be useful in terms of your question. They address the idea of 'mixed-meters'. Rather than being purely rhythmic, and therefore kind of abstract, I'm using a basic ii V I over four bars, with a 3 note melody in the right hand. It's a work in progress, but half done.
I'm calling it a 'mixed meter melodic expansion' exercise, and it's based off of some things I have been listening to Mehldau do. Harmonically it is very very simple, but the focus is on understanding how 3 notes can expand from being played in a short time to being played over a longer time. All will be clear when I finish it, I hope
Should have it finished by tomorrow.
EDIT: I read this essay by Mehldau today, "Coltrane, Jimi Hendrix, Beethoven and God". Great read.
Well, I tried to get tickets this morning but they're sold out already! They just went on sale Wednesday. Imagine that.
No shock! I bought mine in the Fall sometime and when it first opened up, I looked for the most expensive tickets (front row stuff) and the best I can get was what I got.
It's really amazing how popular he has become when tons of people are saying that "they're not into Mehldau" or "he doesn't rock their boat". Well apparently some part of the population thinks otherwise and I think he has opened up jazz to a new audience.
Of course the concert is the Highway Rider album so you'll at least know roughly what he played. However, as I was listening to the album last night, it's really different live.
Jazz is typically a bar venue type of music so it's almost a classical music ambience in a concert hall. Completely different feel. But yet there's Larry Grenadier and Jeff Ballard, relaxed like a normal jazz gig with their casual attire.
Ok so here's what I'm wondering amongst all this rhythm stuff. This is something I probably should know, but oh well.
I don't really understand how sixteenth notes are dealt with in swing. I play them, but I don't know how! Logically it seems that if the rhythm section is swinging eighths with a triplet subdivision, that sixteenths shouldn't really lock in anywhere except on the quarter note, but it doesn't feel that way to me. Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to it?
Does this have anything to do with subdividing the quarter note into 5 or 6 parts? Rhythm has been vastly overlooked in my education.
Good question. Heck if know the answer. I would guess I try to play it on a downbeat in groups of 4. But it doesn't sound good so maybe I'm doing it wrong.
It's easier to compute where to put by doing downbeats but perhaps that's why it doesn't sound authentic. Maybe it's time to listen to where Brad puts his sixteenths or how many notes are included. Start on upbeat/downbeat? Groups of 4 or more uneven?
Saw "the trio" a few years ago at the Chicago Symphony Center. Also got to see KJ solo there a year or so after that. Both were awesome! You'll probably have to make a trip out of it since U.S. concerts are so rare, plus those guys are getting up there in age.
Forgetting for a moment that this is in 7/4, the way Mehldau solos here with just a single line is almost exactly like the way I've been practicing to develop my lines. Short phrases. Rhythmically very active each time.
I didn't realize this until I saw it again. This is one of the ways I was being taught to play by my teacher. Scott how do you describe this?
At the beginning part the lines are very long, but wait till he settles in and he does a lot of shorter phrases.
