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#2118671 - 07/16/13 05:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 532
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By: knotty
Originally Posted By: printer1
Originally Posted By: jjo
Printer1: thanks for that insight. I actually have a sheet music version (not a jazz real book) of Out of No Where, and you are dead on. That F7 is a C minor chord. I'd been taught the back door turn around, which is the VII7, but you've shown the origin in the iv7 chord that is used so much in the old standards.


Jjo, very glad it was helpful and thanks for verifying that ...


Printer,

We had theory classes at camp each morning, and in one of them, Pat Harbison went pretty heavily into soloing / reharm options. At one point, he explained the concept of the backdoor dominant. What's funny is that the guy next to me said: "Well where would you use that", because really it's pretty far out. And I said "No, not that far out, it's in Out of Nowhere".

Anyway, it's kind of cool I asked that very question the week before and it came up in context. Thanks for the help!



Knotty! Glad to hear that helped! Sounds like camp was great!
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#2118673 - 07/16/13 06:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 532
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By: knotty
I've been looking at this standard called "How about you". You can find a leadsheet in the Realbook volume III.
The melody is pretty diatonic.

The chord changes however are quite hip.

How would you approach blowing on it?
One could follow Burton's method and find scales for each of the chords, but it changes very fast.

How about you? How would you approach it?


Can you post chords for the first 8 bars?
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#2118730 - 07/16/13 07:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)

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#2119198 - 07/17/13 05:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 532
Loc: Leicester, UK
Knotty, I'm in the middle of no where w/out a piano. Having said that ..

I haven't really played this tune so I don't have my oown take on it. So w/that as disclaimer ...

This is one of a bunch of tunes that modulates from I to major III. Tangerine and I'm old fashioned are two others. That major third mod is very striking and of course something you see in full bloom in Giant Steps. Meaning the transition from C major to E major and then back to C major is a really strong motion around which to build everything else.

You COULD play GB-style scales over the changes and of course that'll work. But, from looking at the changes my guess is they're all 'someone's reharmonization of simpler harmonies in the original tune. If Bill Evans has a recording of this tune I'd definitely look there to find the chords he uses. I'd also try playing the tune w/as few chords as possible. Meaning see where you can reduce the changes to one chord per measure - or even less! Because most of the chords in the lead sheet are really only passing chords to get from I to V or I to vi. There are A LOT of passing chords you could use instead of those in the lead sheet. If you did simplify the chords a bass player could work from the simpler version and you could dress up the melody w/extra passing chords and all would work very well.

In terms of soloing over the specific chords in the leadsheet I'm sure you see that most of the chords are there only to dress up a diatonic melody. Which suggests a solo style that's diatonic and which uses chromatic tones to LEAD from one chord to another. Or, you might look at all of the chords given in the leadsheet like Coltrane might have looked at chords in standards he played w/Monk. Meaning you'd look to hit every chord change with a scale so the harmonies would be there right out in the front of your solo.

Two more ideas ... you might put everything in C major over a G pedal point and everything in E major over a B pedal point. That'll emphasize the major third relationship and it might even lead you to play very diatonically over Cmajor sections and then E major sections. Or you might add the pedal points and play diatonically very close the original melody.

.... ummm ... I won't say where but I'm certain you see the opportunity following a d minor chord for a back door dom.!

And the standard disclaimer applies to all above. Some of it, most of it, all of it, or none of it might work stock out of the box and vice versa. All depends on voice leading.

Sorry if this is too verbose! And hope it helps! (Is there a recording of the tune that you like?)
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#2119255 - 07/17/13 07:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
Doug McKenzie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Australia
Hi Knotty

Just noticed this post of yours.

I did an extended play through of 'How about You' a couple of years ago - it is on youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWr1TyJbVbc and on my website ( http://www.bushgrafts.com ).

It was soon after buying a new kawai grand, so I couldn't do my usual capture of the notes on a midi keyboard and create a readable transcription. I remember I was practising transposing up a minor third from the leadsheet in C to Eb. I did however annotate it with some comments on some of the ideas I used which you might find useful and also added a melody/basic chords.

Doug

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#2119592 - 07/18/13 11:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Thank you both.

Printer, your post are never too verbose, but your generosity is always very appreciated. Give me a bit to chew it up. I already have a couple more questions for you. I came back from camp totally on fire, but full of questions. I thought "I bet printer would know".

Doug,
Very nice rendition, thank you for posting. It gives a lot of great ideas, especially for arranging.

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#2121976 - 07/23/13 03:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1306
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
Having Rufus Reid coach our combo the entire week was incredible. He gave me no slack.
Having had RR coach me in the combo my first week (the second week I had Jim Rotondi, a brilliant trumpeter as well as combo instructor) I can attest to Knotty's statement. Mr Reid is a true gentleman, a cuddly teddy-bear with claws and tremendous knowledge and experience that he is very willing to share.

Jim Rotondi said something interesting one day that he never thinks in scales, only chords.


Edited by chrisbell (07/23/13 03:55 PM)
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#2122087 - 07/23/13 10:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 401

hey guys, anyone with good ears figure out the chord at 1:50?

It's Keith Jarrett playing the ballad "When I fall in love"



The melody notes are G-F descending. Key is Bb major.

Sounds like an alt chord, with some dissonance. I just want to know his specific voicing and the notes.

And my ears aren't good enough!

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#2122140 - 07/24/13 02:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Doug McKenzie]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1675
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: Doug McKenzie

I did an extended play through of 'How about You' a couple of years ago - it is on youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWr1TyJbVbc and on my website ( http://www.bushgrafts.com ).Doug


Hi Doug. Really nice harmony and great playing on How about you. Love that tune !

I think the original key is G. Almost everyone that plays it in LA calls it in F. Most often it's pretty uptempo. But just wanted to add a fwiw/alternate changes to bars 9 through 12.

Staying in one of your keys, C, I noticed you always use:

Dm | Fm6 Bb7 | Em7 F Maj. 7 | F#m7b5 B7 ||

I like it..the bass goes up where on what I'm used to hearing..the bass walks down.

Seems like a lot of people here do:

Dm Dm/C | Bm7b5 E7 | Am Am/G | F#m7b5 B7||

Another alternate I've played:

F#m7b5 | Fm6 | C/E Dm7 | C 6/9 B7 ||

Another alternate on the second half in bar 23, sometimes guys use the flat 5 again. So from bar 21:

Gm7 | C7 | F#m7b5 | Fm6 Bb7 |

In the one of your C versions at 4:07 you go to an A/F or F MAj 7+5 at bar 23. Very cool effect !.

Like printer mentioned, a lot of people use that pedal bass tone (B in the key of C) during the bridge. Works well, especially when the song is played uptempo.
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#2122640 - 07/25/13 02:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
Doug McKenzie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Australia
Thanks Dave - good to hear from you again!

Thanks for taking the trouble to check out the video. I like those alternatives that you mention - I must try another play through using them. I remember that I just set the camera up and played through a number of times. I was practising reading a leadsheet in one key and playing in another. I am not so clever at instant transposition, especially if it takes me too far from the original key that I know it in. I do like the 'up (or down) a minor 3rd' move as in Bill Evans' version of 'Wine and Roses' where each 16 is alternately played in F or Ab.

I did it just after buying the Kawai that I am playing on the video. It is in a small room, and is difficult to record, so wasn't all that happy with the recorded sound.

By the way how are you finding your NORD piano? I know, like me, you were happy with the sound, but that you were struggling with the feel of the keyboard. I must say that I think I am finally getting used to it!

Doug

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#2123657 - 07/27/13 03:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1306
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Whoa . . . with Jack DeJohnette, drums and Scott´╗┐ Holt, bass. From 1965
_________________________
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#2123907 - 07/27/13 06:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Love McCoy.
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#2123977 - 07/27/13 09:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 592
Loc: Chicago
Love McCoy, too, but it reminds me why I don't listen to much YouTube; the sound quality just sucks. When I want to explore an artist or a tune, I use Spotify. YouTube has all these great live cuts, but the sound is just too great a compromise.

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#2124013 - 07/27/13 10:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
More McCoy! Will be tackling this next!

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#2124022 - 07/27/13 11:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: jjo
Love McCoy, too, but it reminds me why I don't listen to much YouTube; the sound quality just sucks. When I want to explore an artist or a tune, I use Spotify. YouTube has all these great live cuts, but the sound is just too great a compromise.


Can u save to mp3 so that you can run into transcribe?

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#2124093 - 07/28/13 05:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty


Can u save to mp3 so that you can run into transcribe?


http://snipmp3.com/
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#2124097 - 07/28/13 06:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1306
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: knotty
Can u save to mp3 so that you can run into transcribe?

http://snipmp3.com/
Ah, wicked! Great to have on the fly, though I prefer Audio Hijack Pro http://www.rogueamoeba.com/audiohijackpro/
_________________________
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#2124098 - 07/28/13 07:00 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1306
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Btw; any of you have read this? (Matthew Shipp slags Jarrett).
http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/matthew-shipp-keith-jarrett-gary-peacock-jack-dejohnette
_________________________
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#2124115 - 07/28/13 08:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I was asking about spotify. Will that work?

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#2124143 - 07/28/13 08:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty
I was asking about spotify. Will that work?


No idea, but you could try an audio capture program like Piezo, more hassle though.
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#2124148 - 07/28/13 09:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Btw; any of you have read this? (Matthew Shipp slags Jarrett).
http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/matthew-shipp-keith-jarrett-gary-peacock-jack-dejohnette


I have now, and Shipp has gone down several steps in my estimation.
I completely get that some people don't like Jarrett and why should anyone care less who Shipp does or doesn't like? But I don't really understand why Jarrett seems to conjure up such strong dislike and why people (like Shipp) feel the world needs their worthless pseudo criticism.
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#2124178 - 07/28/13 10:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 592
Loc: Chicago
Don't understand the question about Spotify. Are you asking whether you can import a you tube video into spotify? I don't think so.

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#2124451 - 07/28/13 09:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Please ignore my question. It's was silly.


Other question.

Invitation. 1st ending, we have a whole tone descending 2-5-1.
So
C#- | F# | B-
B- | E7 | A-
A- | D7 | G-
and then, what chord comes next?


What about those last 4 measures.

Thanks!

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#2124454 - 07/28/13 09:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Btw; any of you have read this? (Matthew Shipp slags Jarrett).
http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/matthew-shipp-keith-jarrett-gary-peacock-jack-dejohnette


I have now, and Shipp has gone down several steps in my estimation.
I completely get that some people don't like Jarrett and why should anyone care less who Shipp does or doesn't like? But I don't really understand why Jarrett seems to conjure up such strong dislike and why people (like Shipp) feel the world needs their worthless pseudo criticism.



Everyone's talking about Jarrett and noone's talking about Shipp.
This interview is pretty stupid if you ask me. It's straight up bitterness.

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#2124590 - 07/29/13 02:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Please ignore my question. It's was silly.


Other question.

Invitation. 1st ending, we have a whole tone descending 2-5-1.
So
C#- | F# | B-
B- | E7 | A-
A- | D7 | G-
and then, what chord comes next?


What about those last 4 measures.

Thanks!



Knots, you need to find the TRUE changes to Invitation that shows all the actual extensions. You get the wrong impression with these because there are a lot of Min-Maj and #11 chords.

For example, that first A- is actually A-(maj7) and the G- is actually G-(maj7). When you use these it's just a fabulous sound on the piano. I play Invitation a lot.

I'll see if I can find something I wrote out on iRealB. The great source for the chords is the Colorado Book (great one for Dolphin Dance as well) since that is not readily available to all (unless you have the "unauthorized Real Books" on DVD), it is not easily reproducible.
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#2124632 - 07/29/13 05:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1306
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
Invitation. 1st ending, we have a whole tone descending 2-5-1.
So
C#- | F# | B-
B- | E7 | A-
A- | D7 | G-
and then, what chord comes next?
I mailed you the lead sheet. But there's the chords:
C#m9 | F#13 F#7(b13, b9) | B-Maj9
Bm9 | E13 E7(b13, b9) | A-Maj9
Am9 | D13 D7(b13, b9) | G-Maj
Em11(b5) | A7alt or Eb9 (b5) | D7 (b9, b13) | G7 (b9, #9, #5) | --- back to the C-6/9
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#2124636 - 07/29/13 05:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty


Invitation. 1st ending, we have a whole tone descending 2-5-1.
So
C#- | F# | B-
B- | E7 | A-
A- | D7 | G-
and then, what chord comes next?


What about those last 4 measures.




I usually play ..
Em7b5 / Eb13 / Dm7b5 / G7alt
but I don't know where these came from.
As far as the 'true' changes go, well who knows what was originally written. I am guessing that the Em7b5 is an alteration from Eb7.

I like Invitation in Jaco style...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5n23qXNRM
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#2124641 - 07/29/13 05:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1306
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I like Invitation in Jaco style...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5n23qXNRM
Thanks for the reminder, Jaco was great! And his music and playing still is.

In contrast (Bill Evans/Eddie Gomez duo): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Zv4VyjVGY
_________________________
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#2124679 - 07/29/13 08:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Love that Bill Evans version. It always amazes me how much variety it is possible to get from 1 tune.
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#2124685 - 07/29/13 08:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Thanks for the feedback.

I have that Bill Evans Gomez duet. I will tell you that I clearly hear Dorian chords on the descending 2-5s and no major 7s.
Probably possible to do either but it seems Evans picked the Dorian version rather than straight 2-5-1 minor.

Also, I've seen the E-7b5 in RB 5th edition, as well as colorado, while the 6th edition has Eb7b5.
Usually, 6th edition has better changes, but many people use the 5th.

In this case, I hear Eb in Bill / Gomez.

thoughts?

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