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#1347470 - 01/12/10 08:37 AM Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Very interesting announcement from Yamaha being discussed in another thread about the new CP1/CP5/CP50 line.

It would be very useful to get our hands around the key similarities and differences between Roland's VPiano and the Yamaha CP1. Yamaha seems to be again the smart marketeer offering a line with three choices to be able to capture the market that might aspire to the top of the line model but choose one of the other models.

My current specific questions are:

1. Playability of the keybed
Is the NWStage keyboard on the CP1 and CP5 as delicious to grab into as the PHAIII on the Roland?

2. Modelling versus Sampling
The Yamaha claims a hybrid approach as well as more direct control over the sound chain.
How do the two results compare in realism and attractiveness of sound?
How will they impact utility when performing?
Is the feel for the player as continuous and expressive as on the VPiano?

3. Exact comparison of SCM approach between flagship CP1 and CP5
What controllability is lost on CP5? (e.g. on designing piano or configuring Rhodes, etc.)
Which of the two CFSIII and S6 patches of the CP1 are on the CP5?
Is the second pedal input on CP5 configurable as soft pedal?
Is there a two pedal unit for CP5?

Interesting links:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/Pianos/CP1_Catalog_Y30C.pdf
http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/yamaha-cp-1-stage/December-2009/105233

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#1347550 - 01/12/10 10:34 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: theJourney]
dewster Online   content
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
I know it's not a flagship model, but it does use the same type of synthesis - so I'd like comparison to the CP50 included here too, particularly category 3.
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#1348333 - 01/13/10 04:10 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: dewster]
theJourney Offline
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Well, we already know that the CP50 will not use the new wooden stage keybed (1)

For the rest, looking at the Yamaha site, it would seem that the CP50 has more in common with the CP5 and the existing CP300 than with the CP1. It will be interesting to see how improved the sound or playability of the CP50 is and how it sells next to the existing CP300 with built in speakers.

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#1348341 - 01/13/10 05:06 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: theJourney]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
CP300's are not being made anymore.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1348383 - 01/13/10 07:36 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: Dr Popper]
theJourney Offline
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
CP300's are not being made anymore.


Interesting. So there is no hybrid product overlap anymore between stage pianos (where the assumption is that they will be hooked up to a sound system) and the P series digital pianos a la P155 with on board speakers?

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#1349188 - 01/14/10 05:36 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: theJourney]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
No the CP300 having speakers was a bad decision by Yamaha. Anything with its own speakers is rightly or wrongly perceived as rubbish by the professional market. Mainly because its impossible to put decent speakers inside a keyboard (top of the range Clavinova's and Avant Grand's etc aside) They won't make that mistake again with their stage pianos the CP300 is being replaced by the CP5.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1349240 - 01/14/10 08:54 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Anything with its own speakers is rightly or wrongly perceived as rubbish by the professional market. Mainly because its impossible to put decent speakers inside a keyboard (top of the range Clavinova's and Avant Grand's etc aside)

It can be done, and it really doesn't take much effort to do it right, but during the implementation phase they invariably use cheap, full-range speakers in small leaky boxes with no ports, low wattage amps, no EQ, etc. which has fail written all over it.

My problem with on-board speakers as a concept is that they add unnecessary weight and volume to something I occasionally have to schlep around.
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#1349277 - 01/14/10 10:05 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: Dr Popper]
KrAYZEE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 83
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
No the CP300 having speakers was a bad decision by Yamaha. Anything with its own speakers is rightly or wrongly perceived as rubbish by the professional market. Mainly because its impossible to put decent speakers inside a keyboard


The Alesis DG-8 had the same speakers as the (Alesis) M1 active studio monitors and yes it was a heavy beast.

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#1350185 - 01/15/10 04:33 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: dewster]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Anything with its own speakers is rightly or wrongly perceived as rubbish by the professional market. Mainly because its impossible to put decent speakers inside a keyboard (top of the range Clavinova's and Avant Grand's etc aside)

It can be done, and it really doesn't take much effort to do it right, but during the implementation phase they invariably use cheap, full-range speakers in small leaky boxes with no ports, low wattage amps, no EQ, etc. which has fail written all over it.

My problem with on-board speakers as a concept is that they add unnecessary weight and volume to something I occasionally have to schlep around.


The question is if so-called professional gear is aimed solely at the so-called professional market...

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#1350220 - 01/15/10 06:33 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: theJourney]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned

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#1350294 - 01/15/10 09:31 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: theJourney]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Take a look at the DX7 entry:

Q: How can an FM synth be implemented with sample-based (in whatever form) SCM?
A: By sampling it.

I'd bet money there isn't a real FM synth in the CP1.

Even the parameters they adjust on it in the videos don't make sense from a real FM synth perspective. You change one little setting of a DX7 patch and often the whole thing goes to hell.
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#1350368 - 01/15/10 11:12 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: dewster]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: dewster

Even the parameters they adjust on it in the videos don't make sense from a real FM synth perspective. You change one little setting of a DX7 patch and often the whole thing goes to hell.


Yamaha simplified FM editing, first on it's home keyboards, and then on the pro synths...but, it was mainly four-op FM that received these enhancements.

I see no reason that they couldn't have done the same for six operator FM; if that's what is being used in the CP-1.

We must remember that the addition of FM wouldn't be that expensive to implement, since it's paid for itself many times over (ad nauseum)on the glut of DX instruments Yamaha made in the 80's.

I was never a fan of the DX-series, and only got one when playing top 40 covers in the late 80's and early 90's required I had one.

Snazzy
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#1497803 - 08/17/10 11:22 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: theJourney]
abomic Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 7
Loc: France
Compilations Tuto - Yamaha CP5 almost everything .... but in French
http://www.audiokeys.net/forum/showthread.php?23766-CP5-Yamaha-Tout-savoir-Compil-de-liens-utiles

Summary of links:
- Videos quality
- Testing and analysis comparisons
- High resolution photos
- Fly-Transport Case
- Tips and Tricks Programming
- Survey for transmission to Yamaha for improvement
- Establishment of a community of users CP5
- Editing Software Mac / PC for editing / Swap, copy, bank performance

Compilations Tuto - Yamaha CP5 almost everything...
_________________________
French musician - CP5 Yamaha - Clavinova CLP 370 - F110 Roland - XV88 Roland - Motif Xs7 - Acoustic Piano - Accordeon Cavagnolo - Mix Yamaha 01 - Sound : APG DS12

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#1893932 - 05/09/12 03:36 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: dewster]
madAhorn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/08/12
Posts: 23
The Yamaha P95 is the only keyboard with speakers that I truly love...Small, light and powerful sound! Of course, the CP50 I just ordered will have a better overall sound, but that little P95 is so usable for practicing and live small venues...

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#1893956 - 05/09/12 04:58 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: theJourney]
andi85 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/11
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: theJourney
1. Playability of the keybed
Is the NWStage keyboard on the CP1 and CP5 as delicious to grab into as the PHAIII on the Roland?

IMO yes. However, the PHAIII keyboards I had a chance to play when shopping for a piano last year varied to an extent that I hadn't expected. There was one V-Piano that I absolutely hated – felt like worn out from 100 years of heavy use, one RD700NX that was alright, and finally one FP7-F that I absolutely loved and even preferred over the CP5 smile
Generally, however, I'm happy with the NW Stage. It's light and quick but very controllable and musical.
Originally Posted By: theJourney
2. Modelling versus Sampling
The Yamaha claims a hybrid approach as well as more direct control over the sound chain.
How do the two results compare in realism and attractiveness of sound?
How will they impact utility when performing?
Is the feel for the player as continuous and expressive as on the VPiano?

Pah, good question. I don't really care for the particularities of sampling vs. modelling – all I can say is that the CP5 slightly wins for me in the player-keyboard-sound connection and the overall "natural-ness" of the sound. The V-Piano is great, but it always sounded somewhat artificial to me. The CP5 is far from perfect but better, especially with the S6 patch.
Originally Posted By: theJourney
3. Exact comparison of SCM approach between flagship CP1 and CP5
What controllability is lost on CP5? (e.g. on designing piano or configuring Rhodes, etc.)
Which of the two CFSIII and S6 patches of the CP1 are on the CP5?
Is the second pedal input on CP5 configurable as soft pedal?
Is there a two pedal unit for CP5?

That should be in one of the charts someone posted above. As far as I remember you can't select specific microphones for the CP5. The second pedal input may be configured as a una corda pedal. Last time I tried it, it didn't work, but maybe my other FC3 was faulty.
I don't know of a twin-pedal unit for the CP5. Actually that's a shame, but as I grabbed a barely used FC3 for about 20€ from eBay, I'm not too unhappy smile

OK … I just saw that the questions were from 2010. I'll leave the post anyway in case somebody is interested.


Edited by andi85 (05/09/12 05:00 AM)
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Best

Andreas

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#1893980 - 05/09/12 07:23 AM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: theJourney]
offnote Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 258
Loc: Banned
Quote:
Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50


there is no comparison...

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#1894267 - 05/09/12 04:18 PM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: offnote]
ClsscLib Online   content

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1597
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: offnote
Quote:
Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50


there is no comparison...


Very helpful.
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"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1894268 - 05/09/12 04:20 PM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: ClsscLib]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2331
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: offnote
Quote:
Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50


there is no comparison...


Very helpful.


Yes - and one might say somewhat ambiguous!
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Yamaha CP1

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#1894424 - 05/09/12 09:44 PM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: theJourney]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
I agree it not possible to compare the V and the CP1 ...
The V is a one trick pony with a fatally flawed sound.
The CP1 has a few tricks and it's own quirks

The CP5/RD700NX are better for most people then either of them IMHO
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1894427 - 05/09/12 09:45 PM Re: Comparison Roland V-Piano versus Yamaha CP1/CP5 & 50 [Re: dewster]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: dewster


I'd bet money there isn't a real FM synth in the CP1.


how much we talking ?
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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