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#1350873 - 01/16/10 01:54 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5272
Loc: Europe
Billy Joel's MOTHER was teaching in Juliard (according to wikipedia anyways and I think I've read it elsewhere).

But Billy can read music.

Originally Posted By: eweiss
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
When you are a child you speak and think as a child thinks...that's a child's reality. With education and life's experience your inner world and outer world bloom to be so much more. We participate in both worlds. One is public and one is private.

Nice quote. Here's something more relevant. What does a child do first? Speak his/her native language or pick up a pencil and start writing the alphabet? As in language, so in music. 2hearts

Same thing with any kid. They will whistle, hum, dance, whatever a tune. Then they may find their way on a piano, where they might pick up a tune they love. And then, exactly like in any language, if they start lessons they'll start reading and writting.

Is there really any point in your question?
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#1350952 - 01/16/10 07:43 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: MomOfBeginners]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 753
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
Re Wizard of Oz:

Hats back on, gentlemen!

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#1350982 - 01/16/10 09:23 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: moscheles001]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. I am a classical teacher, but I include ear training, improvisation and composition in each lesson (not all three at the same lesson, though!). A good classical pianist needs those skills to be able to interpret the works of the masters and to help develop the next generation of them!

I start these things at the very first lesson. Students must learn to read, but they must also learn to listen and create.
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#1351044 - 01/16/10 10:58 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wombat66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 262
Loc: Cornwall UK
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
.............currawong, you aren't talking about BJones are you? Man that cat was funny, too bad he's gone now.................


I'm sorry to drag this dull debate on and draw further atterntion to the W***** of Oz, and his irksome attention seeking, but Wombat Poirot has had a few idle moments on his hands and would like to question how our irritating little troll is so familiar with the life and times of BJones?
Our former friend BJ last posted on 19 May, 2009 01:58 AM in a thread "What do you think the greats would do...". Like many of the threads "that funny old cat" BJ was involved in, the Moderators didn't find his posts quite as hilarious as our little Okker Wizard does and it got locked. Poor old BJ was never seen again (I wonder if he suffered the same fate as the recently much lamented SV, because old Jonsie boy's name no longer appears in the user list).
The old sage of Cornwall has smelt a hint something brown and furry in that the W****r of Oz is so familiar with our much missed Mr Jones when the former first registered on 13 August, 2009 and yet the latter last posted on 19 May, 2009. I think that the board's other great sage from Down Under (step forward please Sir Currawong)has struck bullseye with his hammer and hit the nail on the head when he noticed more than a passing resemblance between the bothersome wizard and his hero.....perhaps little Wizard you'd care to join your alter ego and disappear back into the cyberspace from whence you came?

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#1351053 - 01/16/10 11:14 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wombat66]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Wombat66
The old sage of Cornwall has smelt a hint something brown and furry in that the W****r of Oz is so familiar with our much missed Mr Jones when the former first registered on 13 August, 2009 and yet the latter last posted on 19 May, 2009.


Prince Charles says...



Check your own pants. Me thinks me smells cabbage.
_________________________
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#1351055 - 01/16/10 11:18 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
Exactly. Don't show them anything...just let them figure it out on their own. They'll turn into a much greater musician that way.

You're probably right.
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
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#1351084 - 01/16/10 12:17 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I just love the comments:

1) "Don't show them anything....justlet them figure it out on their own. They'll turn into a much greater musician that way."

2) You're probably right.

If you don't instruct how is it that you say you "teach"?

I think piano teachers need to "teach" actively.

Do we just sit there and take their money for being in our presence for 30 minutes without contributing a thing?

Music reading and mastering the piano is not something you figure out on your own you make so much more progress with the guidance of a mentor.

Maybe it is that some piano teachers have little or nothing to teach.

I don't get this "philosophy" at all.

And, "they'll turn into a much greater musician that way"?

By drinking the water?

Nice work if you can get it guys!

Zero + Zero = Zero

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#1351085 - 01/16/10 12:19 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 753
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
Gentlemen, once you've replaced your hats, you may want to keep them on with both hands. There's a lot of hot air blowing around here today.

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#1351100 - 01/16/10 12:47 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: moscheles001]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
B.P. - I was kidding. And 'Stores' was being facetious I think.
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#1351110 - 01/16/10 01:02 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Yes, I was being facetious.
In regard to someone above stating that Billy Joel's mother taught at Juilliard...I'm not sure where that comes from, because it's simply not true.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1351135 - 01/16/10 01:33 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5272
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: stores
In regard to someone above stating that Billy Joel's mother taught at Juilliard...I'm not sure where that comes from, because it's simply not true.
That was totally my fault, misreading something... My fault, sorry... (too tired I guess)
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#1351187 - 01/16/10 02:44 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Nikolas]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I, thought Billy Joel was a graduate of Julliard but it is that he:

1) Studied in the neighborhood with a teacher educated at Julliard, and

2) He has endowed Julliard with very large donations.

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#1351237 - 01/16/10 04:21 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: MomOfBeginners]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Wow, this discussion has been massive - I've only just stumbled across the conversation....

To the original question of how you can create the conditions under which your daughter develops excellent sight reading skills (to match her impressive rote learning skills) I would say two things:

1. Have her learn one new piece at her performing level every single week. Maybe two. Or three. The more music she learns the less efficient it is for her to rely on rote learning. Practicing sight reading at this stage of her learning is boring, and boring does not equal engagement with the learning activity.....

2. Chill out about her sight reading skills for now. Maybe she is so fascinated by the sound of a piece, and by the techniques needed to execute a performance of a piece that her brain simply has no interest in the reading side of things. If she learns a new piece [at her performance level] every week she will certainly become a great sight reader ultimately.
_________________________
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Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
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#1351289 - 01/16/10 05:53 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Elissa Milne]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Wow, this discussion has been massive - I've only just stumbled across the conversation....

To the original question of how you can create the conditions under which your daughter develops excellent sight reading skills (to match her impressive rote learning skills) I would say two things:

1. Have her learn one new piece at her performing level every single week. Maybe two. Or three. The more music she learns the less efficient it is for her to rely on rote learning. Practicing sight reading at this stage of her learning is boring, and boring does not equal engagement with the learning activity.....

2. Chill out about her sight reading skills for now. Maybe she is so fascinated by the sound of a piece, and by the techniques needed to execute a performance of a piece that her brain simply has no interest in the reading side of things. If she learns a new piece [at her performance level] every week she will certainly become a great sight reader ultimately.


Hi Elissa,

That is great advice. I was a little worried at first because I had "assumed" that all students should be sight-reading at their playing level.
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Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



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#1351300 - 01/16/10 06:14 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wombat66]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: Wombat66
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
.............currawong, you aren't talking about BJones are you? Man that cat was funny, too bad he's gone now.................




our much missed Mr Jones when the former first registered on 13 August, 2009 and yet the latter last posted on 19 May, 2009. I think that the board's other great sage from Down Under (step forward please Sir Currawong)has struck bullseye with his hammer and hit the nail on the head when he noticed more than a passing resemblance between the bothersome wizard and his hero.....perhaps little Wizard you'd care to join your alter ego and disappear back into the cyberspace from whence you came?




hey Wombat you think I'm BJones? And you actually did the research? Man I must be really getting on your nerves.
Perhaps you'd like to dance Marquis of Queensbury style at Piccadilly Circus. Or can you not afford to take the train there?

For the record, I am NOT BJones, I don't even live in the same country as he does. But we can dance all night long bro.

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#1351305 - 01/16/10 06:24 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: michiganteacher]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: michiganteacher
A couple things to think about:

1. I agree with Morodiene that reading intervals is very important! Your daughter should first learn to recognize steps (is it going up or down?), and then skips of a 3rd, and then larger skips. She should learn to recognize immediately how each interval looks.

2. Sometimes I like to use note-reading flashcards with my students. There are some with one note on each, and some with intervals. I think both are useful for some students. Definitely doesn't hurt!

3. Practicing sight-reading is also a good thing. I have a few of my students practicing reading simple, brand new pieces each day. I just give them books to borrow (it is important that these pieces are at a lower level then what the student might normally play!) The idea here is not to work on perfecting the piece, but to play it through, and then let it go. There are good habits to strive for also - such as scanning through the music before starting, and going slowly.

4. As your daughter continues lessons and grows older, it would be good for her to learn some music theory, too. When I sight read music, I am not reading individual notes at a rapid speed, but rather am recognizing intervals, chords, scales, and cadences on a broader level. So much of this is due to my knowledge of music theory. I have currently been using the Keith Snell theory books with my students.

Good luck! It sounds like your daughter has some talent. smile


Thank you for the great advice. She is turning 7 in March which is why I'm raising the bar for her a little bit. I think she has a solid head start compared to some kids (I didn't play until age 9!), so I think 7 is a great age to be on a regular routine of playing and practicing (which includes scales, drills, and sight reading practice.)
_________________________
YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



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#1351350 - 01/16/10 07:55 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wombat66]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5936
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Wombat66
...our little Okker Wizard ...from Down Under...
sings: Is he an Aussie, Lizzie, is he, is he an Aussie, Lizzie, ay? etc

Wombat, I don't think Wiz is.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1351357 - 01/16/10 08:04 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: currawong]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7382
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1351601 - 01/17/10 02:01 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
QXN Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 2
I am a dad helping my three children with piano playing, and found that Piano Adventures by Faber and Faber are great for sight reading, among many things. Start with the primer level and have her proceed through the levels, even if the material seems too easy for her. It is the gradual mastering of easy tasks that will make things such that sight reading effortless.

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#1351638 - 01/17/10 03:18 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Nagamori Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
I bet if Rach or Mozart or Beethoven were alive today and played some of their works, it would sound somewhat different each time. They would be altering and changing the dynamics depending on their mood. Musicians do this all the time.


I doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?

And so, musicians do it all the time? Unless these musicians were one of those you listed, or near to their musicianship, I fail to see how that is relevant. Maybe they do such things because their musicianship is actually lower than any of those who you listed...?


Edited by Nagamori (01/17/10 03:20 AM)
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#1351644 - 01/17/10 03:25 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: currawong]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Wombat66
...our little Okker Wizard ...from Down Under...
sings: Is he an Aussie, Lizzie, is he, is he an Aussie, Lizzie, ay? etc

Wombat, I don't think Wiz is.


Great, now I got a wombat and a cuckoo bird trying to take me on. Shouldn't be too hard to fend off. And you do know where all Aussies came from don't you... back on the boat ay matey!

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#1351790 - 01/17/10 10:03 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: QXN]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: QXN
I am a dad helping my three children with piano playing, and found that Piano Adventures by Faber and Faber are great for sight reading, among many things. Start with the primer level and have her proceed through the levels, even if the material seems too easy for her. It is the gradual mastering of easy tasks that will make things such that sight reading effortless.


Thanks so much. This is one of the great pieces of advice contained within this thread.

Most of the posts on this thread seem to be riddled with "piano world politics".

I will look this up on Amazon and buy it.
_________________________
YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



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#1351849 - 01/17/10 12:01 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Nagamori]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
[quote=NagamoriI doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?quote]

You've obviously never studied Chopin. There are tons of changes from original manuscripts to published pieces to copies from his students that he wrote comments and markings on.

I have the complete recordings of Rachmaninoff playing his own works and there are sometimes 3 recordings he made of the same piece, each one different.

Music is a living, breathing thing. It can change, and probably should, with each performance.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

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#1351862 - 01/17/10 12:23 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Minniemay]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5272
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
You've obviously never studied Chopin. There are tons of changes from original manuscripts to published pieces to copies from his students that he wrote comments and markings on.
I love the 'obviously' in this. I guess you know the person you're talking to VERY well to know that they have never studied probably the most impotant composer for piano. (<-notice the word probably).

As far as rumours go I think that Mozart composed at once, would make no errors and actually do it in minutes.

There's little to be known about the composers' wishes, apart from the scores actually. Before recordings were invented (so we are talking prior to the 20th century if I remember correctly) the only way to pass over information would be through word of mouth, or... typography! BINGO!

As a composer myself (I'm not comparing myself to Chopin or Rach, btw) I can tell you that I can do whatever the heck I want with my works. Incidently I'm very much in favor of my performers to have a strong personality. But also to have respect for my work, as well as a mind on their own. On a particular work, I asked 7 different performers to play the piece. I left a lot of things rather vague (like tempo indications, accels, no rhythm indications, no time signature, etc). 6 of them followed the score very closely, but of course each one with their own imagination and personality. It was wonderful. The performances ranged from 8 miunutes to around 11:30! An excellent result.

The 7th composer actually had a very close correspondance with me (all through the wonders of the net) and resulted in a 17 minute piece, along with a few added pages! all based to my agreement to do this (I told him that he can do pretty much what he wants, especially since he was an expert in contemporary piano music), and his knowledge and analysis of the score (he even proof read it a tiny bit for me! :D).

I'll be honest, prior to his delivery of the performance, I was scared that all his efforts would be in vain. Lack of trust I guess, But his respect for MY wishes, MY score, MY music (mine it's all mine! :D:D:D), made HIS performance the best amongst the 7 (including mine incidently!)

It's a complicated matter and I honestly have little trouble playing what the heck I want with pretty much anything. In my home, etc. When I will be in public, I will be very careful to what I play and always respectful to the composers' wishes!
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#1351913 - 01/17/10 02:34 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
This might be great advice, but if your daughter is using a different method book it will almost certainly also cause HUGE problems. Firstly, the teacher may not want to use another method for any number of reasons. Secondly, switching between methods can result in students becoming discouraged and disheartened if this switch is not managed very carefully, and part of this careful management is knowing when to move from one method system to another. Based on my experience, I would say it would be very difficult for the teacher, and for the student, to be working through two method books at once.

Just a thought before you hit the Amazon aisles.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1351921 - 01/17/10 02:43 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Minniemay]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
[quote=NagamoriI doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?quote]

You've obviously never studied Chopin. There are tons of changes from original manuscripts to published pieces to copies from his students that he wrote comments and markings on.

I have the complete recordings of Rachmaninoff playing his own works and there are sometimes 3 recordings he made of the same piece, each one different.

Music is a living, breathing thing. It can change, and probably should, with each performance.


I have to agree completely with the intent of this post, although I don't believe that it is necessarily clear that you haven't studied Chopin.....

The thing is that Chopin left completely conflicting scores of the same piece of music - he would write it down quite differently one day to the next and his performances of his own music would treat the score as a kind of opening statement from which the music of the moment would emerge. Very different to the anally retentive composers who emerged in the 20th century.

I'm a composer, and I sometimes struggle to come up with a 'definitive' version of a piece to put on the page. Once my definitive version is on the page teachers and students should know that if they follow my instructions they will be performing a cool piece of music. But my intention, as a composer of educational piano works, is that students explore with my music - that it is a catalyst for them to figure out new things - and this can only happen if they experiment, if they deviate from the markings I've made.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1352138 - 01/17/10 08:33 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Ok Elissa, I'll come clean here wink Bar 38 in Groovy Movie, we often play 3 against 2 (i.e. continue the dotted 1/4 notes in the LH ), and we often put a pause on the last high chord.
Glad I've got that off my chest smile

Actually, I should say that I find your compositions are extremely well finished, very thorough and balanced. Many times I have tried to change a note (that's just one of the ways I explore new pieces) but yours are very stable and resistant to improvements. I appreciate your thorough and thoughtful editing, thank you!
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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1352156 - 01/17/10 09:08 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Canonie]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Quote:
I doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?


My statement of "obviously" refers to the fact that this writer is not familiar enough with what composers have done and continue to do.
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B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

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#1352191 - 01/17/10 10:00 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Elissa Milne]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
This might be great advice, but if your daughter is using a different method book it will almost certainly also cause HUGE problems. Firstly, the teacher may not want to use another method for any number of reasons. Secondly, switching between methods can result in students becoming discouraged and disheartened if this switch is not managed very carefully, and part of this careful management is knowing when to move from one method system to another. Based on my experience, I would say it would be very difficult for the teacher, and for the student, to be working through two method books at once.

Just a thought before you hit the Amazon aisles.


Elissa, point well-taken! Thanks. My daughter is mainly working from - what else - Alfred! She works from the Level B book, and lately, we do about 1-2 pieces per evening for sight-reading practice. She and her teacher also cover this. What I love about Alfred - the pieces are short and sweet, and they're easy enought that I can "guide her" through the pieces (I won't dare use the word teach, 'cause I ain't no teacher...lol)

If anything, I'll buy the Level C book next. Thanks again.
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Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



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#1352833 - 01/18/10 06:27 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2469
Loc: France
To get back to the point of the thread (ha! ha!), a last word about Sonny Stitt.

A friend, a journalist, had to go to Cleveland to cover some story. In the cab he he got to discussing with the driver, who turned out to be a serious jazz listener. The cab driver, who was black, told my friend, who was white, that Stitt was playing that weekend in a club but that he, my friend, couldn't go, it was too dangerous. So my friend asked him to accompany him to the club, obviously offering to pay for the taxi for the whole evening, as well as drinks and so on. So they went. My friend said that it was true, there were some of the roughest looking characters he'd ever seen. He and the cabbie stayed at the bar, on their feet, my friend holding onto the guy's arm.

And Stitt blew the roof off of the place.

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