Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
143 registered (36251, accordeur, antony, anotherscott, 37 invisible), 1760 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#1349753 - 01/14/10 07:49 PM Dad has some questions / needs advice
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
smile

Hi everyone. I am a regular from the Adult Beginner's Forum and wandered in here because I want my 6-year-old to be the pianist that I never was - typical parent, right? smile

My daughter showed talent at the age of 5 when we were at a relative's house (who had a piano), and I showed her Mary Had a Little Lamb a couple of times, and she got it immediately! When she turned 6, we invested in an upright, found a teacher for her, and both started playing. She has received instruction since April last year.

She is a great "rote learner", play-by-ear, and memorizer of her pieces... The thing is, she's not the best of sight readers. She is very much like me and has my tendencies...I only use the score to memorize my pieces..but I want so much more for her. I want her to be both a great sight-reader and the natural musician that she already is.

Being an adult learner who's played for over a year now (after a 27 year layoff), I've gotten good enough to start teaching her too during the week to supplement her lessons. She takes lessons from a high-school student, competition pianist, every saturday (1 hour)!

So, here's our routine:

1.) We work on sight-reading from her level 1 book. Her repertoire is much more advanced than this (the pieces that she has memorized) - but her sight reading ability is still around level 1. If we continue on this routine, will her sight reading eventually get better? What else can I do to make it "automatic"...(ie she see's "G#" on the staff, and immediately knows where it is.)

2.) She also plays, from memory, her more advanced pieces. She is currently working on Bach's "Minuet in G". She pretty much "rote learns" these more advanced pieces, but during this learning, her teacher tries to get her to read the notes too.

3.) She does "Junior Hanon" and "Dozen a Day" drills.

We've been spending about a 15 min. to 1/2 hour during the week on this routine. I've just started doing this routine for about a week, because she hasn't been practicing "without being told", and her skills have diminished a little...

Is there anything else that I should be doing to supplement her lessons? How do teachers handle a student who is like my daughter (good rote learner, but not-too-good of a sight reader).. Again, my goal is to have her sight-reading at her playing level.

Also, at what point in her development (what piano grade) should I switch teachers? The high-schooler is doing a great job right now just showing her the basics, so we're currently pleased with our current arrangement.. However, as she advances, I'd like to have a person trained in Piano Pedagogy be her teacher....what do you all think?

That's all...thanks in advanced for advice.
_________________________
YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1349789 - 01/14/10 08:23 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7417
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Learning by rote is great for ear training and developing the memory, but as you note, it doesn't help with reading skills, and much of a pianist's routine activity is reading unfamiliar music.

There are a number of graded "sight reading" drill books available. If your teacher isn't familiar with them, ask her if she would visit the local music store and select one for you.

If you're in a more rural area, we may have to do some digging for you and provide some suggestions.

One suggestion for certain, if the method series she is using has a "performer" type book or a "technique" book which your daughter isn't using, this would be a good supplement to use for developing reading skills.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
#1349852 - 01/14/10 09:28 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
I would recommend that she stick with learning to play by ear. Unless your goal is for her to be a master of the classical pieces then reading sheet music is not that important. Far greater is having an ear that can pick up sounds and melodies.

In fact, sheet music can be a hindrance to people. I play jazz now and never read while playing.
I used to play classical and my sight reading was pretty decent. I remember playing Rachmaninov's Prelude in C# minor and looking at the music was such a pain. I just memorized the melody and worked out the chords.
Now I can't sight read worth a lick but I can play tunes by ear no problem.


What musicians need to work on is relating the keys on a piano to a specific sound (the note). Best way to do this is to sing aloud the note when playing. Similar to solfegge. Pick a scale like C major, start from the root and relate all the other notes to the root. like C D C, C E C, C F C, .... D C D, E C E ...

What this does is work on your relative pitch.

I teach some young kids and I always get them to play by ear first. The sight reading comes later.

Top
#1349879 - 01/14/10 09:49 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Lollipop Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 820
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Now I can't sight read worth a lick but I can play tunes by ear no problem.


Quote:
The sight reading comes later.


Sounds like you're still waiting? wink
_________________________
piano teacher

Top
#1349880 - 01/14/10 09:50 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12215
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I think the toughest part for people w ho are poor sight readers is not reading the notes, but reading the rhythms AND the notes. Therefore, sight reading rhythms is a great skill to work on with beginners. It can be a lot of fun, too, if you use egg shakers or little drums or any home-made percussion instruments.

Also have her sight read melodies for only one hand at a time, doing equal amounts in treble and bass clef.

A really good book for this I've discovered is published by FJH called "Rhythm and Sight Reading Every Day". You may want to pick this one up or order it.

Also do not neglect interval reading. She shouldn't be reading every note name as she plays, but only when it's necessary.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#1349883 - 01/14/10 09:53 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Michael Darnton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 243
Loc: Chicago
I'm not a teacher, but a beginner, and I have the same inclination, to memorize. I really want to sight read, so I have a book of stuff that's simpler than my current level, and I spend some time every day reading things in it so that I don't fall behind. It's this one, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EADCNS/ref=ox_ya_oh_product and the tunes at the beginning are very easy and basic.
_________________________
http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

Top
#1349886 - 01/14/10 09:54 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Lollipop]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Waiting for what?


I don't play classical anymore so it's not a problem. I can play pretty much any jazz, rock, pop tune by ear.

Like I said earlier, I used to sight-read at a decent level, but it was a skill that I didn't find worth keeping.

Playing and improvising by ear is way more fun.

Top
#1349899 - 01/14/10 10:10 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
stores Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Waiting for what?


I don't play classical anymore so it's not a problem. I can play pretty much any jazz, rock, pop tune by ear.

Like I said earlier, I used to sight-read at a decent level, but it was a skill that I didn't find worth keeping.

Playing and improvising by ear is way more fun.


Sure, but one doesn't need sheet music for those genres. Sure you can play the NOTES to that Rachmaninoff Prelude, but what happens to all the other indications the composer has left? You're right...they're not important or worth looking at. Just work out Rach's melody and fill in the chords the best you can.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1349931 - 01/14/10 10:42 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
To really know the intention of the composer you'd have to listen to him play it. Back then of course there were no CD's or recording devices so the only way was to write it down.

I bet if Rach or Mozart or Beethoven were alive today and played some of their works, it would sound somewhat different each time. They would be altering and changing the dynamics depending on their mood. Musicians do this all the time.

The classical genre has a strict attitude that all the notes must be played exactly as written and with the recommended dynamics. Hogwash!! You get Bach to play one of his preludes 10 times now and you'd find variations and probably even different notes to the melody. Bach would be tinkering and improvising to his heart's liking. In fact, he's probably doing exactly just that upstairs as we speak.

Top
#1349946 - 01/14/10 10:53 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
michiganteacher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 69
Loc: Michigan, United States
A couple things to think about:

1. I agree with Morodiene that reading intervals is very important! Your daughter should first learn to recognize steps (is it going up or down?), and then skips of a 3rd, and then larger skips. She should learn to recognize immediately how each interval looks.

2. Sometimes I like to use note-reading flashcards with my students. There are some with one note on each, and some with intervals. I think both are useful for some students. Definitely doesn't hurt!

3. Practicing sight-reading is also a good thing. I have a few of my students practicing reading simple, brand new pieces each day. I just give them books to borrow (it is important that these pieces are at a lower level then what the student might normally play!) The idea here is not to work on perfecting the piece, but to play it through, and then let it go. There are good habits to strive for also - such as scanning through the music before starting, and going slowly.

4. As your daughter continues lessons and grows older, it would be good for her to learn some music theory, too. When I sight read music, I am not reading individual notes at a rapid speed, but rather am recognizing intervals, chords, scales, and cadences on a broader level. So much of this is due to my knowledge of music theory. I have currently been using the Keith Snell theory books with my students.

Good luck! It sounds like your daughter has some talent. smile
_________________________
Jessica S.

Top
#1349969 - 01/14/10 11:31 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I'm of the unpopular opinion that to use the ear only to learn piano means you are not completely literatate in musicianship. You are able to "speak" the language in reproducing sound but you are not able to read it or write it. Does my comment seem offensive, I'm sorry it if does. But think about what I'm said and decide if that's the way you want your music to always be made.

Just last night, a 10 year old in her 3rd year of music was working on some Czerny exercises (opus 599)which she had just finished playing back what had been assigned last week. I asked her to play the first note and sing what she had just played in the RH. She looked frightened to do that although we have sung before (lyrics) at lessons. I said "OK, sing measure 1 for me (these exercises are 8-16 measures long) and keep going as far as you can, but if you really feel "off" you may stop at any time you want. She sang easily and with very good intonation and counting skills. Then she sang the LH which was written in the treble clef with no problem, same good results.

She reads music, pays great attention to fingering, good rhythm skills, but has seemed a little uncertain when looking at a piece for the first time. Now she has found that her voice can anticipate the sound to be played before she plays it and it was a nice surprise to her that she could do this.

I think reading of music is essential, and while difficult when starting piano, with good teaching and good materials, the orientation to the keyboard and to the music staff simply has to be carefully and correctly understood one step at a time, starting slowly but with a steady beat. The first 10 lessons are going to produce a "can do" kid or they are going to set in motion a student who can use only their strongest skill set that they prefer to use.

Allowing someone to continue in the only way they know may produce an acceptable product, but it does not enlighted, encourage, or educate to develop their musicianship any further.

Rote and imitation and pre-charts lasting beyond their benefitical time element in beginning lessons is not truly teaching, it is using the most minimal way of learning.

You are sacrificing access to so many elements of music by allowing the very thing you do not want.

From a critical point, I doubt there is any talented, achieving teen ager able to completely instruct a beginner student in all the ways a student needs to be instructed. This student does not yet understand pedagogy and has little experience with methods and what the different approaches are to music lessons. While it might be a satisfying and fun experience for the young teacher and her young student, I question that it will be truly effective teaching that could be cover all the bases that beginners need in instruction from their teachers.

Piano teaching is not a follow the dot kind of simplicity, it requires that we create thinking skills, deliberate actions, counting durations, all part of working with the students brain and motor coordination. Once established any of these habits are going to be set in concrete and very difficult to change. The next piano teacher is probably going to find the student difficult to teach because the student is now very set in her own idea of what piano is like, and she will only have one very small dimension of music to use from her previous instruction.

Those who do the ear thing well are certainly going to expound on the value of it. But those who can play other contributing factors within this kind of teaching. Using only ears to learn with robs the learner of ever playing and readsing music in the fullest dimensions of their being by incorporating brain, vision, ears and tactile senses. You either understand music completely or you don't.

I would push for the completely. That would mean that the musician has several choices 1) to read from a classically written music page and produce a pretty credible accounting of it, AND 2) to improvise freely and 3) then be able to notate (write by his own hand) on a blank music manuscript what occured during the improvisation. If there were a 4), it would be: to perform from memory for adjudication, to earn a college degree in music, or to achieve a career as a professional pianist, composer, or piano teacher. There are different levels of ability and each must be mastered to get to the next. All of it is about being music literate.

Betty Patnude

Top
#1350021 - 01/15/10 12:16 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Betty Patnude]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
I'm of the unpopular opinion that to use the ear only to learn piano means you are not completely literatate in musicianship. You are able to "speak" the language in reproducing sound but you are not able to read it or write it.


Betty Patnude


Funny how Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, George Shearing, Marcus Roberts didn't get that memo. Their musicianship seems to be just fine.

Top
#1350023 - 01/15/10 12:18 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
stores Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
To really know the intention of the composer you'd have to listen to him play it. Back then of course there were no CD's or recording devices so the only way was to write it down.

I bet if Rach or Mozart or Beethoven were alive today and played some of their works, it would sound somewhat different each time. They would be altering and changing the dynamics depending on their mood. Musicians do this all the time.

The classical genre has a strict attitude that all the notes must be played exactly as written and with the recommended dynamics. Hogwash!! You get Bach to play one of his preludes 10 times now and you'd find variations and probably even different notes to the melody. Bach would be tinkering and improvising to his heart's liking. In fact, he's probably doing exactly just that upstairs as we speak.






For starters, I'd agree with you about Bach, since he left us extremely little, if nothing, in the way of any indications at all. That said, you wouldn't, at all, need to hear the composer play his work to realize his intentions. The composer took the time to leave those indications for a reason (many being extremely meticulous in this regard). Beethoven, in his late sonatas, especially, went out of his way to make sure his intent was properly notated (look at some of his tempo indications...oh wait you don't look at the music hahahha...sorry, it was there). I have no doubt in my mind were Beethoven, or Chopin, or Debussy, etc. alive today and heard much of what I hear from "artists" with the mindset you've described they'd more than likely snatch the score off the piano and humiliate to tears whomever was seated at the keyboard. Interpretation is not about deciding FOR the composer what he has to say, but serving as a conduit FOR the composer to say what he has to say.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1350035 - 01/15/10 12:27 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
May I say that these composers used INK and wrote diligently, many by candlelight to record their works. They had enough integrity about wanting to share music with others and to have an identity where their path in their musical lives had led them.
Some of these master composers were also master teachers and theorems and treatistes written in the 1600 and 1700' are still factual and used today.

How's that for "good press"!

Don't evem think of minimizing the contributions of great intellectuals in classical music whose outstanding accomplishments many of us revere.

Top
#1350041 - 01/15/10 12:32 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873

I have a feeling you don't play anything other than classical, is that right? Listen to a jazz standard and you'll hear the player injecting his or her personality to the song. The composer may not have intended it that way but the player has a right to artistic interpretation. It may sound worse or better or just different.

Listen to a jazz great like Herbie Hancock play one of his own tunes, and you'll know that he changes things up so drastically that some versions would be unrecognizable to the original.

Top
#1350046 - 01/15/10 12:37 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Back then there were no electronic recording devices or CD's or mp3's. Musicians today have the luxury of digital recordings that can last a lifetime, and if you have a good ear you wouldn't need to look at a score.

If Bach or Beethoven lived in today's era they would have just put out a CD and left it at that.

Why aren't there any new classical composers today. Where'd they all go?

Top
#1350050 - 01/15/10 12:38 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
AZNpiano Online   happy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5590
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
The classical genre has a strict attitude that all the notes must be played exactly as written and with the recommended dynamics. Hogwash!!


_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#1350052 - 01/15/10 12:42 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: AZNpiano]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
AZN piano let's hear your version of Fur Elise and do a chorus of the 1st movement totally improvised, I bet you can't!

Top
#1350054 - 01/15/10 12:44 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
AZNpiano Online   happy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5590
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Why aren't there any new classical composers today. Where'd they all go?


They're everywhere! When is the last time you actually went to a music bookstore and browsed through the titles?
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#1350057 - 01/15/10 12:48 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: AZNpiano]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Why aren't there any new classical composers today. Where'd they all go?


They're everywhere! When is the last time you actually went to a music bookstore and browsed through the titles?


Give me some names then! With the advent of the digital age I don't need to step into a music store again. Ever heard of iTunes?

Top
#1350079 - 01/15/10 01:09 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
cinstance Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 104
I can probably share with you some of my son's sight reading secret. My son who is 7 years old has very good sight reading. He "self-trained" himself by listening to music and reading the notes at the same time.

My son started playing piano the same time as he went to the first grade. One of my son's early supplement material was Beyer, and I was able to buy a set of DVD lessons to go with the book. He watched the DVDs and read the notes every day after school. In the DVD, an old Chinese lady goes through every pieces in the book with a cute little girl, and my son found it very "funny". By Christmas time (after three months playing), he not only was able to read most of the notes that are at least two levels higher than his playing level, he also acquired very accurate absolute pitch.

Good sight reading really helped his early progress, since he could pretty much play any music that is not far ahead of his study. I remember when his teacher got him the level 3 book in February, he basically played through the whole book in 2 weeks, from the first song to the last (actually he played the last song first).

During last summer break, he wanted something more challenging, so I bought a set of DVD of Barenboim playing Beethoven 32 sonatas. He watched it for the whole summer break, after which he could pretty much read any music throw in front of him. It also helped his understand a lot of music theory at the same time, just by looking at the notes and checking the music.

I am not sure if this can help your daughter, but might worth a try since it at least is not going to do any harm listening to music.

Top
#1350080 - 01/15/10 01:09 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
AZNpiano Online   happy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5590
Loc: Orange County, CA
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#1350087 - 01/15/10 01:17 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: AZNpiano]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
You can't answer your own statement? How sad.

Top
#1350092 - 01/15/10 01:25 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
AZNpiano Online   happy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5590
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: cebukid70
Again, my goal is to have her sight-reading at her playing level.


You are definitely on the right track! But I don't think it's possible to sight read at playing level. That'd be hard to do. Usually people can sight read music that's 2-3 levels easier than the stuff they are currently working on. For example, kids who are working on Kuhlau Op. 20 Sonatinas should be able to sight read "Minuet in G" from the Anna Magdalena Bach Notebook.

I can certainly tell you that the great majority of kids learning piano today are sight reading way, way below their level. It's really sad. frown
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#1350102 - 01/15/10 01:36 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Give me some names then!
Do some basic research.

Then come back if you're willing to discuss music in a civilised fashion. People are getting tired of all this them-and-us stuff about jazz improvisation, and the childish "prove it" demands.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1350112 - 01/15/10 01:42 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
meep Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 62
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Why aren't there any new classical composers today. Where'd they all go?


They're everywhere! When is the last time you actually went to a music bookstore and browsed through the titles?


Give me some names then! With the advent of the digital age I don't need to step into a music store again. Ever heard of iTunes?

shocked

Top
#1350126 - 01/15/10 02:19 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
stores Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
I assumed you were asking AZN, but I'll answer.
Sofia Gubaidulina, Jennifer Higdon, Einojuhani Rautavaara, John Adams, Jeffrey Harrington, Geoffrey Gordon, Rodion Shchedrin...just for a few.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1350128 - 01/15/10 02:25 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Karol Befa.

Top
#1350132 - 01/15/10 02:28 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: currawong]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Give me some names then!
Do some basic research.

Then come back if you're willing to discuss music in a civilised fashion. People are getting tired of all this them-and-us stuff about jazz improvisation, and the childish "prove it" demands.


Why would I research music I have no interest in. If these modern classical composers were well known, I'd have heard their name. Do you know who the latest rap artists are, or even jazz?

This argument isn't about improvising, it's about playing by ear vs sight-reading. Ever wonder why so many kids sight-read WAY below their level. It's because that's not the natural way to learn music.

Ask famous musicians like Elton John, Billy Joel, Bryan Adams, Eric Clapton how well their sight reading skills are and I bet it's below their ear training skills.

Music, like languages aren't meant to be taught by reading first rather than speaking and listening.

The classical approach is seriously flawed.

Top
#1350141 - 01/15/10 02:49 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
MomOfBeginners Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 125
Loc: California, USA
For the question of how important it is to read music notation: it's almost parallel to how important is it to be know how to read words in the non-music world.

It's entirely possible to know how to speak and communicate without ever knowing how to read. You learn about styles of speaking and then pass that on to the next person. For centuries, knowledge and stories were passed down in oral tradition. These were probably embellished and evolved. There was not a desire to keep it accurate or the same. The passion that enveloped these stories were also passed on, so people were looking at the inspiration of these stories rather than the accuracy of these stories. That worked well in those communities. There wasn't a need for literacy for everybody.

On the other hand, knowing how to read and write gives such power! The ability to do record-keeping, and the power to take in experiences of others is expanded when you can read what others have written. On one hand, those who never knew how to read would never understand how far you can go if you can only read. In the modern world, illiteracy is crippling.

I can see music residing in two separate worlds. There are people who are happy to pass on music as an aural experience, improvise, embellish, add, no need to read music. They'll go so far and they're happy with that. In some cases, they may not even know what they're missing.

Then there are others who have access to vast library of music because they can read, interpret, and produce. They have the power of music literacy, but it doesn't guarantee that the inspiration of the music comes out of that printed page at them.

Going back to music reading...it's a decision of whether or not you want to give that power of literacy to a music student. If they student just has difficulty reading music, either because of lack of interest, lack of ambition, or lack of talent, do you still push it? Or do you allow a middle ground? Let the student use a play-by-ear method of learning and perhaps make the process more enjoyable. The student will not be playing in certain programs...but in some cases, that may not be the goal?

I do think that learning to read music gives so much more empowerment. My daughter once asked me why she had to learn to read. I told her that it's so that she can read books and learn from others. She told me "But all I have to do is listen to books-on-tape.". Maybe that's true, but her reading would be restricted to only to where she can have access to books-on-tape. I want her to be the person producing the books-on-tape, not listening to it.
_________________________
Mom of Two Girls Who Used to Be Beginners

Top
#1350143 - 01/15/10 03:02 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
stores Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Nope, can't say I know who the latest rap "artists" are, nor do I care to know. The reason that kids don't sight-read very well has nothing to do with it not being natural. It's because not nearly enough importance is placed on sight-reading in the teaching process. There are a lot of uninformed "teachers" (many of whom leave me scratching my head), who really shouldn't be teaching, because of the lack of their own ability in regard to that which they should be teaching. Ear training is, certainly, important and should be taught along with sight reading and other skills, but, definitely not the basis, by which one should form a foundation solely.
The "classical" approach is not flawed. How that approach is administered, however, often is.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1350145 - 01/15/10 03:10 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: MomOfBeginners]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
I am not saying that reading is unimportant, for classical music it would be needed. And obviously very difficult to play a high level score entirely by ear.

But for all other types of music the ear is of utmost importance.

My early piano training was all classical. I got frustrated because I couldn't play simple tunes by ear. If I heard a song I liked on TV or the radio and didn't have the score I would be lost.

So I taught myself to play by ear, and THAT has opened up a whole new world. Comparing music to literacy is slightly off because with music, reading isn't that important, but in life being illiterate can be crippling.

In jazz often times you are playing with several other musicians at the same time. You need to have a good ear to have a musical "conversation" with the other players and not clash.

In classical you play mostly solo so that skill set is not utilized.

Top
#1350149 - 01/15/10 03:20 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
If sight reading is so important then how did all those rock and roll guitar players learn? Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, BB King, Van Halen, Eric Johnson, Steve Vai. These guys are virtuosos and bloody great musicians.

Ask most guitar players and they'll say they were listen to records in their room and playing those tunes by ear. Nobody who plays guitar would only play by sight-reading. They'd be looked at as nuts and their fellow guitarists would wonder why they can't pick up the tune by ear.

Top
#1350150 - 01/15/10 03:23 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
LimeFriday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 303
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz

The classical approach is seriously flawed.


The classical approach is different - not flawed. You seem to be threatened by that difference and determined to attack and derail many useful threads from people who are enjoy the classical approach. You didn't enjoy it... that's fine - but many do.

Top
#1350156 - 01/15/10 03:38 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: LimeFriday]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: LimeFriday
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz

The classical approach is seriously flawed.


The classical approach is different - not flawed. You seem to be threatened by that difference and determined to attack and derail many useful threads from people who are enjoy the classical approach. You didn't enjoy it... that's fine - but many do.




Not threatened at all. I learned classical piano up to the highest grade level for my country and found the approach to be lacking to be a complete musician. It did not prepare me to play in a church worship band, nor taught me how to play jazz, or pop tunes off the radio. Like many others, without the sheet music I was literally lost.

If all you want to do is play music from a score and nothing else, then that's fine. If you want to learn how to play in a trio, accompany a singer, compose, improvise, then you better start developing your ear.

Top
#1350160 - 01/15/10 03:44 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
In classical you play mostly solo so that skill set is not utilized.
That comment alone shows how little you know.

You remind me very much of another poster who was really only interested in jazz, like you, but amused himself by coming to the classical forum and stirring up the people who loved classical with this sort of stuff. (Granted, he was a bit more articulate, but apart from that he was similar)

Now think of it like this, O Wiz - would you be annoyed if the classical players came over to the non-classical forum just when you were discussing something interesting and started with "jazz is flawed, you have it all wrong, you should all be playing Beethoven"..? Not that anyone has, as we apparently have too much sense and not as much idle time on our hands as you. But it would be pointless, would it not?

Then ask yourself why you are doing the same thing?

_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1350161 - 01/15/10 03:46 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
LimeFriday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 303
Loc: Australia
I started in jazz and improvisation... I performed with singers and with other musicians. I enjoyed and still enjoy every moment of it. I can play pop songs from the radio and can play without music. Though I could read music - I didn't have to rely on it.

But I also feel that the classical approach is equally essential for musical literacy. I felt there were great holes in my musical education and ability having not learned the classical approach.

So twenty years ago I began learning classical. I wished I'd started earlier. Having a good ear is all very well... but being able to play classically provides a far greater technical challenge... and provides a much better foundation from which to make a choice about where you want to go with music.

Sight reading and being able to read from a score and play what you read provides great pleasure than being able to play by ear... and opens up far more opportunities for musicians.

Top
#1350164 - 01/15/10 03:50 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
To really know the intention of the composer you'd have to listen to him play it. Back then of course there were no CD's or recording devices so the only way was to write it down.

I bet if Rach or Mozart or Beethoven were alive today and played some of their works, it would sound somewhat different each time. They would be altering and changing the dynamics depending on their mood. Musicians do this all the time.

The classical genre has a strict attitude that all the notes must be played exactly as written and with the recommended dynamics. Hogwash!! You get Bach to play one of his preludes 10 times now and you'd find variations and probably even different notes to the melody. Bach would be tinkering and improvising to his heart's liking. In fact, he's probably doing exactly just that upstairs as we speak.


There's an absolute world of difference between slavish dedication to the printed score, and what amounts to improvisation on a classical theme. The idea that the purpose of sight-reading is to foster dogmatic adherence to the whims of the composer (or editor, more likely) is completely wrong.

If you want to play the classical repertoire, with even a reasonable approximation of what the composer intended, you need to be able to read. Either that, or you need to develop an _exceptionally_ good ear and have a great deal of patience and an understanding family.

After about 40 years of playing by ear and improvising, I reckon I'm reasonably competent at it. But I'm never going to be able to improvise or compose like Bach and Mozart, even if I had a dozen lifetimes to work on it.

But I can _play_ the great music that those guys left us, because I've put the effort into developing tolerable score-reading skills.

If you don't want to play the classical repertoire -- and many people don't -- then whether you want to spend time on sight reading is much more a matter of personal preference. For my part, even for jazz I find reasonable score-reading an advantage. Unless you're doing it face to face, it's hard even to communicate musical ideas in any other way.

I never learned to read music when I was a kid because I didn't have to. I had a natural gift for playing by ear and an intuitive understanding of melody and harmony. These things served me well for a long time, but when I decided that I did want to play some of the classical repertoire, I found that I couldn't do a good job of it with the skills I had. I'm pretty sure that learning to read music in your 40's is much more painful than learning it before you're 10.

Top
#1350172 - 01/15/10 04:05 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: LimeFriday]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
The best benefit I got from classical was the technique and fingering. The actual physical playing, where all those scale drills build up dexterity. But the sight-reading part I found a burden and hindrance.

currawong, you aren't talking about BJones are you? Man that cat was funny, too bad he's gone now.

I wouldn't be annoyed at all, in fact I welcome you to come over anytime. We're doing a thread on the ABF for jazz intermediate/advanced. See if you can add something of value, but since you don't play jazz I doubt it.

This argument isn't about jazz vs classical. It's about the relative importance of ear training vs sight-reading.
You may think sight-reading has greater value, I disagree.

My classical teacher didn't show me any ear training and that lack of skill showed itself when I tried to play other styles.

Funny how the piano teachers association here hired a jazz pianist friend of mine to teach them how to improvise. They knew their training was not complete. What I'm trying to do is to open your eyes that the classical method of teaching piano is flawed and incomplete.

Why do so many people who used to take piano lessons as a kid say they hated it and quit, but wished they learned again but with a fun and different approach. Look at the methods like Sudnow, Piano Magic, Play piano in a flash...etc..why are they popping up.

If you are taking offense to what I post, then that's your problem.

Top
#1350182 - 01/15/10 04:30 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
If you are taking offense to what I post, then that's your problem.
Well... communication is a two way street, don't you think? You actually believe that someone taking offense to what YOU post has nothing to dowith what YOU post at all? Give me a break...

Now, onto the rather silly debate.

I play classical music, I play with bands, I play in piano bars with a great singer (amazing actually and very beautiful and... not my wife! LOL). I'm emabarrashed to attempt even to admit I know jazz, cause I don't. I don't listen to jazz, so I wouldn't be able to comment much on that.

But I'm rather annoyed to the idea that improvisation is limited to jazz, that some people seem to imply. And also rather annoyed to the comparison between apples and oranges. Both are interesting, tasteful and useful.

This year (2009-2010) I extended my lessons by 15 minutes more each day, to a couple of my students to accomodate more theory. This involves mainly writing in scores, and reading from scores. I also tried sight reading (something which they've never heard about) and explained the necessity of it. And then I had them singing their favorite song... :-/

I doubt one can be a 'complete' musician (when playing classical at least) without skills in reading, listening, playing, thinking, etc. and sure, in the film music/computer games music world there are tons of 'whistlers' (Zimmer and Elfman are said to not being able to read music) so it's very doubtful if this means much. But it also should be noted the army of people behind these people who MAKE the music work (by notating scores, orchestrating, making parts, etc).
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1350194 - 01/15/10 04:50 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: MomOfBeginners]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: MomOfBeginners

I do think that learning to read music gives so much more empowerment. My daughter once asked me why she had to learn to read. I told her that it's so that she can read books and learn from others. She told me "But all I have to do is listen to books-on-tape.". Maybe that's true, but her reading would be restricted to only to where she can have access to books-on-tape. I want her to be the person producing the books-on-tape, not listening to it.


Your point of view I find to be sad, MomOfBeginners. It is a utilitarian point of view, not the words of someone who loves to read.

Your daughter's comment is charming, no need to prove her wrong.

Top
#1350197 - 01/15/10 04:55 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Nikolas]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Nikolas, I was giving advice to the OP regarding her child not wanting to learn to sight read. This debate has NOTHING to do with classical or jazz music.

It has to do with how to keep that child active and interested in learning music when they don't want to sight-read. I suggested to let the child play by ear and when they are ready or find reading useful to add it.

Funny that I haven't heard a single piece of good advice from any of you guys. So, are you going to force that kid to sight-read and make him or her hate learning music?

As I said before, I would MUCH rather have a good ear than good sight-reading. To have both is great, but for my personal application to music, the ear is essential and the eye is not.

Now, getting back to the topic, exactly how would you go about motivating that kid who doesn't want to sight-read?

Top
#1350200 - 01/15/10 05:10 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Well... you can imagine that the thread derailed a tiny bit...

I don't think that the 'issue' with sight reading is far apart an 'issue' with math or history.

It has to do with:
a. bad teaching
or
b. no insentive

As you saw from my post my personal doings in teaching is applying all. I'm primarily a composer, so I find the importance of ear training (and inner ear actually) to be great.

The thread derailed, as I said above, but bottom line is this: If someone managed to find a way to explain to a little kid the usefulness of sight reading it will be great. I, personally, find that this skill should be developed 'later' in life, rather than the age of 6-7 years old. Listening and ear training happens the minute you start playing the piano, instinctively.

But it does remain that you blur the line between what you find useful (as you mention in your very last post, and thanks for that) and what is universally agreed as useful. Because while you said "... my personal application to music...", which is exactly that: personal, while on another post you mention "teaching classical music is flawed", which is not personal, but appears as some universal truth! wink

And to be clear: My PERSONAL approach to music is attempting to be whole: Let them listen (brought a DVD of Messiaens works a few months ago and they hated it :D), let them see concerts (took them to concerts, along with a few parents), let them realise the beauty of music (played Lady GAGA on the piano, and then some Chopin), let them realise their potential, by pushing them lightly to learn harder pieces, new pieces they've never heard of, songs, etc, and teaching them everything about music, from the golden ratio, to Bachs primary number use, to the life of most Romantic composers who barely reached 30 years of age, to the meaning of motifs in Wagners music, and whatnot. Referencing makes it possible.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1350201 - 01/15/10 05:20 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: landorrano]
stores Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: MomOfBeginners

I do think that learning to read music gives so much more empowerment. My daughter once asked me why she had to learn to read. I told her that it's so that she can read books and learn from others. She told me "But all I have to do is listen to books-on-tape.". Maybe that's true, but her reading would be restricted to only to where she can have access to books-on-tape. I want her to be the person producing the books-on-tape, not listening to it.


Your point of view I find to be sad, MomOfBeginners. It is a utilitarian point of view, not the words of someone who loves to read.

Your daughter's comment is charming, no need to prove her wrong.


For as "charming" as it may have been, I think it a sad reflection on society in general today. Why read the book...I'll watch the movie. Why read the book...I'll listen to it instead; i.e. entertain me so I don't have to put forth too much effort. It's too bad so many don't take the time to trigger their imagination between the covers of a great book.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1350205 - 01/15/10 05:26 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Just a note that I find books, and especially notation (scores) to be a form of art in itself! smile (just a BTW comment)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1350209 - 01/15/10 05:31 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Nikolas]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Just a note that I find books, and especially notation (scores) to be a form of art in itself! smile (just a BTW comment)


I second the motion!

Top
#1350211 - 01/15/10 05:43 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: stores


For as "charming" as it may have been, I think it a sad reflection on society in general today.


I get your point, but I think that you are mistaken. You must have forgotten some things from your own childhood. Hearing a story or a book read to you is not a passive activity.

I don't know exactly what "books-on-tape" are, but even so I'd wager that kids that listen often to this sort of thing also read voraciously.


Edited by landorrano (01/15/10 05:43 AM)

Top
#1350213 - 01/15/10 05:49 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: landorrano]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
books-on-tape are normal books read by... actors. I always thought they were for people with hearing problems and I found them a good idea, but if someone is using it instead of reading... bleh...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1350217 - 01/15/10 06:24 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Nikolas]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
What I should say is that the current method of teaching classical music is INCOMPLETE, rather than flawed. Just as there are faults in the jazz schools and pedagogy, which I won't get into here.

Being the best musician is like being the best athlete, you need to train in all areas. My experience with classical training found it lacking in some skills that could transfer to other arenas of music. Had I not learned them I would have been stuck.

Just the same with some of the posters saying they wished they had learned to sight-read better.

I like how the Suzuki method emphasizes ear training but that still seems to be the minority. There are others who are using an audiation approach like Edwin Gordon.

Ultimately learning music is a personal endeavor where one needs to be self-taught and motivated. Same with pushing kids into sports they aren't ready or excited to play. If a child loves music then it becomes easy.

Top
#1350219 - 01/15/10 06:28 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: currawong]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz


Not that anyone has, as we apparently have too much sense and not as much idle time on our hands as you.




currawong you seem to have enough idle time to reply to every post I've made on the Teachers or Corners forums lately. Are you stalking me? Hahaha.

For the record, are you a guy or girl. Just want to be sure.

Top
#1350221 - 01/15/10 06:34 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
oz: But an athlete is expert in ONE sport, not many, and practicing differers greatly amongst athletes...

If you think about it weight lifters, or discus throwers are some heavy 'monsters' (<- notice the " please), who would probably fail to jump 2 feet of the ground, never mind 6... laugh

:-/

The current method of teaching classical music is the one that each teacher uses... And yes,I will agree that there is too much emphasis on scores.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1350230 - 01/15/10 06:59 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
For the record, are you a guy or girl. Just want to be sure.

I hope this answers your question

Currawong is a

wink
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1350245 - 01/15/10 07:56 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
What I should say is that the current method of teaching classical music is INCOMPLETE, rather than flawed. Just as there are faults in the jazz schools and pedagogy, which I won't get into here.

[...]

Just the same with some of the posters saying they wished they had learned to sight-read better.


Generally, the common methods for teaching the classical repertoire are intend to teach people how to play ... the classical repertoire. I conceded that there seems to be an assumption that learning to play `the piano' amounts to learning to play classical piano, and perhaps that is regrettable. Nevertheless, I think most people understand that when they sign their kids up for `piano lessons' (rather than `jazz piano' or whatever), they're aiming primarily at Bach and Beethoven and such.

My experience is that kids who have a good ear don't need any encouragement to improvise and play by ear. They will do it for fun. Often they will make good progress with even the most modest teaching and encouragement.

Sight-reading is different. Most kids (in my experience) don't enjoy learning to do it, although they may well enjoy the results of being able to do it.

So how do you motivate a child to practice sight reading? I don't know. But I do think that the approach you advocate -- essentially not doing it, because there are more productive things -- is a mistake. It's a mistake because sight reading is much easier to learn when you're young (like many things). Kids don't know what their future interests are going to be, and I think we do them a disservice if we let them opt out of things that we -- adults -- realize will be hugely beneficial in later life.

My own approach with kids and sight-reading essentially centres on bribery.

Top
#1350341 - 01/15/10 10:37 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
C.Y. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Originally Posted By: cebukid70

She is a great "rote learner", play-by-ear, and memorizer of her pieces... The thing is, she's not the best of sight readers.



2.) She also plays, from memory, her more advanced pieces. She is currently working on Bach's "Minuet in G". She pretty much "rote learns" these more advanced pieces, but during this learning, her teacher tries to get her to read the notes too.


Probably when she is learnning a new piece, don't play it for her to listen. Just ask her to figure out the notes without hearing it first.
I don't think you need to worry about it even her sight reading is several levels below her playing level, I think that is quite normal. Her sight reading is going to advance just like her playing does.

Top
#1350731 - 01/15/10 07:31 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Canonie]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Canonie
Nice pikky, Canonie. We haven't had so many lately - more magpies (Saw two of them taking a splashy bath in a puddle this morning).
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1350803 - 01/15/10 10:11 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: currawong]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
When you are a child you speak and think as a child thinks...that's a child's reality. With education and life's experience your inner world and outer world bloom to be so much more. We participate in both worlds. One is public and one is private.

In conversation we can state the things we are aligned about or we can concentrate on the differences or we can remain neutral.

We can think, talk. If we don't learn to read and write we've limited our participation in the world.

Contemplating one's belly button day in and day out is lonely and non-productive. The more posters say the same old, same old predictable things the more I consider they are talking to themselves because they enjoy the sound of their "voices".

To not get caught up in repetitive redundance, the ignore button comes in handy.

And, Billy Joel is a Julliard graduate, isn't he? Oh.

Top
#1350805 - 01/15/10 10:22 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
To really know the intention of the composer you'd have to listen to him play it. Back then of course there were no CD's or recording devices so the only way was to write it down.

I bet if Rach or Mozart or Beethoven were alive today and played some of their works, it would sound somewhat different each time. They would be altering and changing the dynamics depending on their mood. Musicians do this all the time.

The classical genre has a strict attitude that all the notes must be played exactly as written and with the recommended dynamics. Hogwash!! You get Bach to play one of his preludes 10 times now and you'd find variations and probably even different notes to the melody. Bach would be tinkering and improvising to his heart's liking. In fact, he's probably doing exactly just that upstairs as we speak.

Oz, your post is a breath of fresh air. But it might be wasted on classical purists here. 2hearts
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

Top
#1350807 - 01/15/10 10:26 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
stores Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
And, Billy Joel is a Julliard graduate, isn't he? Oh.

You are being facetious, yes?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1350810 - 01/15/10 10:38 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Betty Patnude]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
When you are a child you speak and think as a child thinks...that's a child's reality. With education and life's experience your inner world and outer world bloom to be so much more. We participate in both worlds. One is public and one is private.

Nice quote. Here's something more relevant. What does a child do first? Speak his/her native language or pick up a pencil and start writing the alphabet? As in language, so in music. 2hearts
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

Top
#1350871 - 01/16/10 01:53 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
stores Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Exactly. Don't show them anything...just let them figure it out on their own. They'll turn into a much greater musician that way.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1350873 - 01/16/10 01:54 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Billy Joel's MOTHER was teaching in Juliard (according to wikipedia anyways and I think I've read it elsewhere).

But Billy can read music.

Originally Posted By: eweiss
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
When you are a child you speak and think as a child thinks...that's a child's reality. With education and life's experience your inner world and outer world bloom to be so much more. We participate in both worlds. One is public and one is private.

Nice quote. Here's something more relevant. What does a child do first? Speak his/her native language or pick up a pencil and start writing the alphabet? As in language, so in music. 2hearts

Same thing with any kid. They will whistle, hum, dance, whatever a tune. Then they may find their way on a piano, where they might pick up a tune they love. And then, exactly like in any language, if they start lessons they'll start reading and writting.

Is there really any point in your question?
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1350952 - 01/16/10 07:43 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: MomOfBeginners]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 753
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
Re Wizard of Oz:

Hats back on, gentlemen!

Top
#1350982 - 01/16/10 09:23 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: moscheles001]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. I am a classical teacher, but I include ear training, improvisation and composition in each lesson (not all three at the same lesson, though!). A good classical pianist needs those skills to be able to interpret the works of the masters and to help develop the next generation of them!

I start these things at the very first lesson. Students must learn to read, but they must also learn to listen and create.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#1351044 - 01/16/10 10:58 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wombat66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 262
Loc: Cornwall UK
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
.............currawong, you aren't talking about BJones are you? Man that cat was funny, too bad he's gone now.................


I'm sorry to drag this dull debate on and draw further atterntion to the W***** of Oz, and his irksome attention seeking, but Wombat Poirot has had a few idle moments on his hands and would like to question how our irritating little troll is so familiar with the life and times of BJones?
Our former friend BJ last posted on 19 May, 2009 01:58 AM in a thread "What do you think the greats would do...". Like many of the threads "that funny old cat" BJ was involved in, the Moderators didn't find his posts quite as hilarious as our little Okker Wizard does and it got locked. Poor old BJ was never seen again (I wonder if he suffered the same fate as the recently much lamented SV, because old Jonsie boy's name no longer appears in the user list).
The old sage of Cornwall has smelt a hint something brown and furry in that the W****r of Oz is so familiar with our much missed Mr Jones when the former first registered on 13 August, 2009 and yet the latter last posted on 19 May, 2009. I think that the board's other great sage from Down Under (step forward please Sir Currawong)has struck bullseye with his hammer and hit the nail on the head when he noticed more than a passing resemblance between the bothersome wizard and his hero.....perhaps little Wizard you'd care to join your alter ego and disappear back into the cyberspace from whence you came?

Top
#1351053 - 01/16/10 11:14 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wombat66]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Wombat66
The old sage of Cornwall has smelt a hint something brown and furry in that the W****r of Oz is so familiar with our much missed Mr Jones when the former first registered on 13 August, 2009 and yet the latter last posted on 19 May, 2009.


Prince Charles says...



Check your own pants. Me thinks me smells cabbage.
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

Top
#1351055 - 01/16/10 11:18 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
Exactly. Don't show them anything...just let them figure it out on their own. They'll turn into a much greater musician that way.

You're probably right.
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

Top
#1351084 - 01/16/10 12:17 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I just love the comments:

1) "Don't show them anything....justlet them figure it out on their own. They'll turn into a much greater musician that way."

2) You're probably right.

If you don't instruct how is it that you say you "teach"?

I think piano teachers need to "teach" actively.

Do we just sit there and take their money for being in our presence for 30 minutes without contributing a thing?

Music reading and mastering the piano is not something you figure out on your own you make so much more progress with the guidance of a mentor.

Maybe it is that some piano teachers have little or nothing to teach.

I don't get this "philosophy" at all.

And, "they'll turn into a much greater musician that way"?

By drinking the water?

Nice work if you can get it guys!

Zero + Zero = Zero

Top
#1351085 - 01/16/10 12:19 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 753
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
Gentlemen, once you've replaced your hats, you may want to keep them on with both hands. There's a lot of hot air blowing around here today.

Top
#1351100 - 01/16/10 12:47 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: moscheles001]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
B.P. - I was kidding. And 'Stores' was being facetious I think.
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

Top
#1351110 - 01/16/10 01:02 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: eweiss]
stores Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Yes, I was being facetious.
In regard to someone above stating that Billy Joel's mother taught at Juilliard...I'm not sure where that comes from, because it's simply not true.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1351135 - 01/16/10 01:33 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: stores]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: stores
In regard to someone above stating that Billy Joel's mother taught at Juilliard...I'm not sure where that comes from, because it's simply not true.
That was totally my fault, misreading something... My fault, sorry... (too tired I guess)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1351187 - 01/16/10 02:44 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Nikolas]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I, thought Billy Joel was a graduate of Julliard but it is that he:

1) Studied in the neighborhood with a teacher educated at Julliard, and

2) He has endowed Julliard with very large donations.

Top
#1351237 - 01/16/10 04:21 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: MomOfBeginners]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Wow, this discussion has been massive - I've only just stumbled across the conversation....

To the original question of how you can create the conditions under which your daughter develops excellent sight reading skills (to match her impressive rote learning skills) I would say two things:

1. Have her learn one new piece at her performing level every single week. Maybe two. Or three. The more music she learns the less efficient it is for her to rely on rote learning. Practicing sight reading at this stage of her learning is boring, and boring does not equal engagement with the learning activity.....

2. Chill out about her sight reading skills for now. Maybe she is so fascinated by the sound of a piece, and by the techniques needed to execute a performance of a piece that her brain simply has no interest in the reading side of things. If she learns a new piece [at her performance level] every week she will certainly become a great sight reader ultimately.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1351289 - 01/16/10 05:53 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Elissa Milne]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Wow, this discussion has been massive - I've only just stumbled across the conversation....

To the original question of how you can create the conditions under which your daughter develops excellent sight reading skills (to match her impressive rote learning skills) I would say two things:

1. Have her learn one new piece at her performing level every single week. Maybe two. Or three. The more music she learns the less efficient it is for her to rely on rote learning. Practicing sight reading at this stage of her learning is boring, and boring does not equal engagement with the learning activity.....

2. Chill out about her sight reading skills for now. Maybe she is so fascinated by the sound of a piece, and by the techniques needed to execute a performance of a piece that her brain simply has no interest in the reading side of things. If she learns a new piece [at her performance level] every week she will certainly become a great sight reader ultimately.


Hi Elissa,

That is great advice. I was a little worried at first because I had "assumed" that all students should be sight-reading at their playing level.
_________________________
YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



Top
#1351300 - 01/16/10 06:14 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wombat66]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: Wombat66
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
.............currawong, you aren't talking about BJones are you? Man that cat was funny, too bad he's gone now.................




our much missed Mr Jones when the former first registered on 13 August, 2009 and yet the latter last posted on 19 May, 2009. I think that the board's other great sage from Down Under (step forward please Sir Currawong)has struck bullseye with his hammer and hit the nail on the head when he noticed more than a passing resemblance between the bothersome wizard and his hero.....perhaps little Wizard you'd care to join your alter ego and disappear back into the cyberspace from whence you came?




hey Wombat you think I'm BJones? And you actually did the research? Man I must be really getting on your nerves.
Perhaps you'd like to dance Marquis of Queensbury style at Piccadilly Circus. Or can you not afford to take the train there?

For the record, I am NOT BJones, I don't even live in the same country as he does. But we can dance all night long bro.

Top
#1351305 - 01/16/10 06:24 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: michiganteacher]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: michiganteacher
A couple things to think about:

1. I agree with Morodiene that reading intervals is very important! Your daughter should first learn to recognize steps (is it going up or down?), and then skips of a 3rd, and then larger skips. She should learn to recognize immediately how each interval looks.

2. Sometimes I like to use note-reading flashcards with my students. There are some with one note on each, and some with intervals. I think both are useful for some students. Definitely doesn't hurt!

3. Practicing sight-reading is also a good thing. I have a few of my students practicing reading simple, brand new pieces each day. I just give them books to borrow (it is important that these pieces are at a lower level then what the student might normally play!) The idea here is not to work on perfecting the piece, but to play it through, and then let it go. There are good habits to strive for also - such as scanning through the music before starting, and going slowly.

4. As your daughter continues lessons and grows older, it would be good for her to learn some music theory, too. When I sight read music, I am not reading individual notes at a rapid speed, but rather am recognizing intervals, chords, scales, and cadences on a broader level. So much of this is due to my knowledge of music theory. I have currently been using the Keith Snell theory books with my students.

Good luck! It sounds like your daughter has some talent. smile


Thank you for the great advice. She is turning 7 in March which is why I'm raising the bar for her a little bit. I think she has a solid head start compared to some kids (I didn't play until age 9!), so I think 7 is a great age to be on a regular routine of playing and practicing (which includes scales, drills, and sight reading practice.)
_________________________
YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



Top
#1351350 - 01/16/10 07:55 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wombat66]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Wombat66
...our little Okker Wizard ...from Down Under...
sings: Is he an Aussie, Lizzie, is he, is he an Aussie, Lizzie, ay? etc

Wombat, I don't think Wiz is.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1351357 - 01/16/10 08:04 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: currawong]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7417
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
#1351601 - 01/17/10 02:01 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
QXN Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 2
I am a dad helping my three children with piano playing, and found that Piano Adventures by Faber and Faber are great for sight reading, among many things. Start with the primer level and have her proceed through the levels, even if the material seems too easy for her. It is the gradual mastering of easy tasks that will make things such that sight reading effortless.

Top
#1351638 - 01/17/10 03:18 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Nagamori Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
I bet if Rach or Mozart or Beethoven were alive today and played some of their works, it would sound somewhat different each time. They would be altering and changing the dynamics depending on their mood. Musicians do this all the time.


I doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?

And so, musicians do it all the time? Unless these musicians were one of those you listed, or near to their musicianship, I fail to see how that is relevant. Maybe they do such things because their musicianship is actually lower than any of those who you listed...?


Edited by Nagamori (01/17/10 03:20 AM)
_________________________
Check out my beginner's youtube channel!

Top
#1351644 - 01/17/10 03:25 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: currawong]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Wombat66
...our little Okker Wizard ...from Down Under...
sings: Is he an Aussie, Lizzie, is he, is he an Aussie, Lizzie, ay? etc

Wombat, I don't think Wiz is.


Great, now I got a wombat and a cuckoo bird trying to take me on. Shouldn't be too hard to fend off. And you do know where all Aussies came from don't you... back on the boat ay matey!

Top
#1351790 - 01/17/10 10:03 AM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: QXN]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: QXN
I am a dad helping my three children with piano playing, and found that Piano Adventures by Faber and Faber are great for sight reading, among many things. Start with the primer level and have her proceed through the levels, even if the material seems too easy for her. It is the gradual mastering of easy tasks that will make things such that sight reading effortless.


Thanks so much. This is one of the great pieces of advice contained within this thread.

Most of the posts on this thread seem to be riddled with "piano world politics".

I will look this up on Amazon and buy it.
_________________________
YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



Top
#1351849 - 01/17/10 12:01 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Nagamori]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
[quote=NagamoriI doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?quote]

You've obviously never studied Chopin. There are tons of changes from original manuscripts to published pieces to copies from his students that he wrote comments and markings on.

I have the complete recordings of Rachmaninoff playing his own works and there are sometimes 3 recordings he made of the same piece, each one different.

Music is a living, breathing thing. It can change, and probably should, with each performance.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#1351862 - 01/17/10 12:23 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Minniemay]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
You've obviously never studied Chopin. There are tons of changes from original manuscripts to published pieces to copies from his students that he wrote comments and markings on.
I love the 'obviously' in this. I guess you know the person you're talking to VERY well to know that they have never studied probably the most impotant composer for piano. (<-notice the word probably).

As far as rumours go I think that Mozart composed at once, would make no errors and actually do it in minutes.

There's little to be known about the composers' wishes, apart from the scores actually. Before recordings were invented (so we are talking prior to the 20th century if I remember correctly) the only way to pass over information would be through word of mouth, or... typography! BINGO!

As a composer myself (I'm not comparing myself to Chopin or Rach, btw) I can tell you that I can do whatever the heck I want with my works. Incidently I'm very much in favor of my performers to have a strong personality. But also to have respect for my work, as well as a mind on their own. On a particular work, I asked 7 different performers to play the piece. I left a lot of things rather vague (like tempo indications, accels, no rhythm indications, no time signature, etc). 6 of them followed the score very closely, but of course each one with their own imagination and personality. It was wonderful. The performances ranged from 8 miunutes to around 11:30! An excellent result.

The 7th composer actually had a very close correspondance with me (all through the wonders of the net) and resulted in a 17 minute piece, along with a few added pages! all based to my agreement to do this (I told him that he can do pretty much what he wants, especially since he was an expert in contemporary piano music), and his knowledge and analysis of the score (he even proof read it a tiny bit for me! :D).

I'll be honest, prior to his delivery of the performance, I was scared that all his efforts would be in vain. Lack of trust I guess, But his respect for MY wishes, MY score, MY music (mine it's all mine! :D:D:D), made HIS performance the best amongst the 7 (including mine incidently!)

It's a complicated matter and I honestly have little trouble playing what the heck I want with pretty much anything. In my home, etc. When I will be in public, I will be very careful to what I play and always respectful to the composers' wishes!
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1351913 - 01/17/10 02:34 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
This might be great advice, but if your daughter is using a different method book it will almost certainly also cause HUGE problems. Firstly, the teacher may not want to use another method for any number of reasons. Secondly, switching between methods can result in students becoming discouraged and disheartened if this switch is not managed very carefully, and part of this careful management is knowing when to move from one method system to another. Based on my experience, I would say it would be very difficult for the teacher, and for the student, to be working through two method books at once.

Just a thought before you hit the Amazon aisles.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1351921 - 01/17/10 02:43 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Minniemay]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
[quote=NagamoriI doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?quote]

You've obviously never studied Chopin. There are tons of changes from original manuscripts to published pieces to copies from his students that he wrote comments and markings on.

I have the complete recordings of Rachmaninoff playing his own works and there are sometimes 3 recordings he made of the same piece, each one different.

Music is a living, breathing thing. It can change, and probably should, with each performance.


I have to agree completely with the intent of this post, although I don't believe that it is necessarily clear that you haven't studied Chopin.....

The thing is that Chopin left completely conflicting scores of the same piece of music - he would write it down quite differently one day to the next and his performances of his own music would treat the score as a kind of opening statement from which the music of the moment would emerge. Very different to the anally retentive composers who emerged in the 20th century.

I'm a composer, and I sometimes struggle to come up with a 'definitive' version of a piece to put on the page. Once my definitive version is on the page teachers and students should know that if they follow my instructions they will be performing a cool piece of music. But my intention, as a composer of educational piano works, is that students explore with my music - that it is a catalyst for them to figure out new things - and this can only happen if they experiment, if they deviate from the markings I've made.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1352138 - 01/17/10 08:33 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Ok Elissa, I'll come clean here wink Bar 38 in Groovy Movie, we often play 3 against 2 (i.e. continue the dotted 1/4 notes in the LH ), and we often put a pause on the last high chord.
Glad I've got that off my chest smile

Actually, I should say that I find your compositions are extremely well finished, very thorough and balanced. Many times I have tried to change a note (that's just one of the ways I explore new pieces) but yours are very stable and resistant to improvements. I appreciate your thorough and thoughtful editing, thank you!
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1352156 - 01/17/10 09:08 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Canonie]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Quote:
I doubt that. The composers have gone out of their way to make specific sheet music indications despite that they're things they would change all the time? Why would they do that?


My statement of "obviously" refers to the fact that this writer is not familiar enough with what composers have done and continue to do.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#1352191 - 01/17/10 10:00 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: Elissa Milne]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
This might be great advice, but if your daughter is using a different method book it will almost certainly also cause HUGE problems. Firstly, the teacher may not want to use another method for any number of reasons. Secondly, switching between methods can result in students becoming discouraged and disheartened if this switch is not managed very carefully, and part of this careful management is knowing when to move from one method system to another. Based on my experience, I would say it would be very difficult for the teacher, and for the student, to be working through two method books at once.

Just a thought before you hit the Amazon aisles.


Elissa, point well-taken! Thanks. My daughter is mainly working from - what else - Alfred! She works from the Level B book, and lately, we do about 1-2 pieces per evening for sight-reading practice. She and her teacher also cover this. What I love about Alfred - the pieces are short and sweet, and they're easy enought that I can "guide her" through the pieces (I won't dare use the word teach, 'cause I ain't no teacher...lol)

If anything, I'll buy the Level C book next. Thanks again.
_________________________
YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



Top
#1352833 - 01/18/10 06:27 PM Re: Dad has some questions / needs advice [Re: CebuKid]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
To get back to the point of the thread (ha! ha!), a last word about Sonny Stitt.

A friend, a journalist, had to go to Cleveland to cover some story. In the cab he he got to discussing with the driver, who turned out to be a serious jazz listener. The cab driver, who was black, told my friend, who was white, that Stitt was playing that weekend in a club but that he, my friend, couldn't go, it was too dangerous. So my friend asked him to accompany him to the club, obviously offering to pay for the taxi for the whole evening, as well as drinks and so on. So they went. My friend said that it was true, there were some of the roughest looking characters he'd ever seen. He and the cabbie stayed at the bar, on their feet, my friend holding onto the guy's arm.

And Stitt blew the roof off of the place.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Need help picking a Beethoven Piano Sonata Slow movement
by oaklandraiders76
12/20/14 04:50 PM
What are some great ways to learn the blues?
by brucepiano
12/20/14 04:37 PM
Do you recommend an undercover on upright with Dampp-Chaser?
by thestar
12/20/14 03:56 PM
kawai model SA-8E upright
by EthanHawaii
12/20/14 02:28 PM
Piano Felt
by Modern Conner
12/20/14 01:37 PM
Forum Stats
77375 Members
42 Forums
160021 Topics
2349933 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission