Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
136 registered (Alexander Borro, ajames, Almaviva, 36251, 40 invisible), 1526 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#1350235 - 01/15/10 07:19 AM I don't practice with a metronome neither I count.
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
Hey there, I need somebody to tell if I'm really making a mistake by not using a metronome neither counting at all. Is this something I need to get used to? Is this essential?
_________________________
Roland FP7F

Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#1350238 - 01/15/10 07:35 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: fe2008]
IngridT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/07/08
Posts: 244
Loc: Netherlands
Is counting essential?

Yes.

I don't know how long you have been playing. If you are a real beginner and only play short well-known pieces of music you'll probably get away with playing the rythm 'by ear'.

But as soon as things get more complicated (16th or shorter notes, syncopated rythms, pieces of music you are not familiar with, weird time signatures, changing time signatures within a piece, different rythms for left and right hand) you'll get lost during your attempts to master a piece.

Much better to get used to counting before you reach that point.

(a metronome can be useful for real complex rythms, or for checking wether you keep a constant tempo throughout a piece, or to force you to practice low speed. Not as basically necessary as straightforward counting, but a very useful practice tool)

Ingrid

Top
#1350267 - 01/15/10 08:54 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: IngridT]
mooshinator Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 66
Loc: Upstate New York
I am a beginner and I find counting to be very, very important when learning a new piece at slow tempo.

As I increase the tempo up to full speed, there's a point where I become unable to count anymore, though. I don't know if it will come with practice, or if it's something I should work on harder, but at a certain tempo I just can't count and play at the same time or my brain gets overwhelmed.

So at that point, I usually turn on the metronome and use that to work my speed up.

But some combination of the two of them is definitely essential for me.

Top
#1350272 - 01/15/10 09:04 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: mooshinator]
IngridT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/07/08
Posts: 244
Loc: Netherlands
Mooshinator...

My experience (playing 3 yrs, so also still a beginner) is that once you know how a piece should sound, rythm wise, you don't have to count throughout every beat and measure. For complex pieces though, I notice that sometimes I continue counting through a few difficult spots. What I also often do is kind of count-singing. Like I use the one-and-two-etc to kind of 'sing' the melody (instead of whatever other text there is, or instead of humming a textless-piece. It sounds ridiculous, but works well. It's like the counting and the playing more or less 'merge'..more pleasant for the brain I think. (and also an easy way to work on rythms when away from the piano. In the car. or on your bike)

Ingrid

Top
#1350278 - 01/15/10 09:15 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: fe2008]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4381
Loc: Jersey Shore
Originally Posted By: fe2008
Hey there, I need somebody to tell if I'm really making a mistake by not using a metronome neither counting at all. Is this something I need to get used to? Is this essential?


Being a good counter is my biggest downfall. It is extremely important.

Top
#1350305 - 01/15/10 09:48 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Mark...]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
I find that I have to focus on the rhythm problems the most. I can fix an incorrect note far, far easier than incorrect rhythm. I've even had to stop working on pieces because I could not fix the rhythm mistakes I have learned in them.

Rich
_________________________

Top
#1350375 - 01/15/10 11:22 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: DragonPianoPlayer]
why_cant_I_play Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 34
Loc: USA - East Coast
I am probably a minority in my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. I started to play fairly recently and am in my 40's, and I have come to the realization that I will never be an expert Piano player and hence am resigned to the fact that I will only be playing pieces that I love to hear i.e. I doubt I will ever be able to look at sheet music and just be able to play.

So I have basically decided on just doing it by ear and if I can play the pieces I like fairly close than I am OK with it.

As I said I am probably a minority in this opinion but you need to decide what type of player do you want to be, I would think its fairly important to use a metronome/count if you want to be at the level as some of the other contributors to this forum.

All the best.

Top
#1350378 - 01/15/10 11:24 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: why_cant_I_play]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1399
Loc: Dallas, TX
Counting is for rhythm; the metronome is for tempo. Both are important.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#1350409 - 01/15/10 12:06 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: IngridT]
Rachel J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 325
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: IngridT
Is counting essential?

Yes.

I don't know how long you have been playing. If you are a real beginner and only play short well-known pieces of music you'll probably get away with playing the rythm 'by ear'.

But as soon as things get more complicated (16th or shorter notes, syncopated rythms, pieces of music you are not familiar with, weird time signatures, changing time signatures within a piece, different rythms for left and right hand) you'll get lost during your attempts to master a piece.

Much better to get used to counting before you reach that point.

(a metronome can be useful for real complex rythms, or for checking wether you keep a constant tempo throughout a piece, or to force you to practice low speed. Not as basically necessary as straightforward counting, but a very useful practice tool)

Ingrid


Ingrid has summed up my feelings exactly... To really achieve perfect rhythm, you need to have the ability to count correctly as you play. To achieve a rock-solid steady tempo, you need to have the ability to stay with a metronome.

Whether you work hard at these things is really up to you to decide how good you want to be!
_________________________
Rachel Jimenez Piano teacher in Brooklyn, NY / Author of Fundamental Keys method
My professional website: FundamentalKeys.com
Latest blog post: "A marvelous pianist and mentor"

Top
#1350435 - 01/15/10 12:32 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: IngridT]
mooshinator Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 66
Loc: Upstate New York
Originally Posted By: IngridT
Mooshinator...

My experience (playing 3 yrs, so also still a beginner) is that once you know how a piece should sound, rythm wise, you don't have to count throughout every beat and measure. For complex pieces though, I notice that sometimes I continue counting through a few difficult spots. What I also often do is kind of count-singing. Like I use the one-and-two-etc to kind of 'sing' the melody (instead of whatever other text there is, or instead of humming a textless-piece. It sounds ridiculous, but works well. It's like the counting and the playing more or less 'merge'..more pleasant for the brain I think. (and also an easy way to work on rythms when away from the piano. In the car. or on your bike)

Ingrid


Thank you, Ingrid, reading your post made me think of several ideas that I could try!

I know *exactly* what you mean about singing the count! I used to do it all the time before my method book got into eighth notes. Without eighth notes, I was able to sing the count and play at full tempo. Once I added in eighth notes, however, my brain got overloaded.

However, you make an interesting point about not needing every single beat in the count once you understand the rhythm. One thing I may try is when I am learning the song at slow tempo I will continue to do a "full count", and by that I mean saying "and" for the eighth notes.

But once I learn the rhythm and start speeding up the tempo, I may try dropping the "and"s and reverting to just counting the beats like a metronome, 1 - 2 - 3 - 4... by doing that, I might be able to once again "sing the count" and count and play at full tempo...

Top
#1350449 - 01/15/10 12:54 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: mooshinator]
Nguyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 430
Loc: Massachusetts
I think if you have in a year or 2 goal, not rushing to play your favorite pieces right away or soon, counting definitely will come with practice. Same with LF, RH coordination, counting is extremely difficult at first. And like LF, RH coordination, we have to overcome that to play any piece, favorite or not, counting will also become easier. I haven’t encountered difficult rhythms yet, but the ones that were so difficult to me months ago are now very doable after a few tries.


Edited by Nguyen (01/15/10 12:56 PM)
_________________________
Nguyen - Student Pianist

Top
#1350481 - 01/15/10 01:33 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: fe2008]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: fe2008
Hey there, I need somebody to tell if I'm really making a mistake by not using a metronome neither counting at all. Is this something I need to get used to? Is this essential?

Going the classical route? Probably. Not classical? Not really.
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

Top
#1350487 - 01/15/10 01:39 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: eweiss]
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
Thanks everyone, I'll start slowly.
_________________________
Roland FP7F

Top
#1350491 - 01/15/10 01:45 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Mark...]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Mark...


Being a good counter is my biggest downfall. It is extremely important.


Why is that a downfall?

Top
#1350579 - 01/15/10 03:40 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Andromaque]
MiM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
I came up with something I called the "MiM Index Finger Method" :-) It is basically about using your index finger to point and touch the sheet as you count, as well as when you are listening to the recorded piece.

So, I look at the time signature, say it is 4/4. I then point to each note and count like" 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, etc., placing my finger on each note, and keeping it for the duration of the note. Doing this a few times before you play anything ensures that when you do play, you don't go off in the wrong direction, pick the wrong tempo, miss a note, etc. What I noticed is that if you try to start learning a piece before fully understanding when and where each note goes, you end up paying up for that later on as you try to unlearn the mistake. I have been playing for about 14 years, but still take it with a grain of salt.
_________________________
Happy Playing All
http://www.box.net/shared/897uu7aqv4

Top
#1350597 - 01/15/10 04:10 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Andromaque]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4381
Loc: Jersey Shore
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
Originally Posted By: Mark...


Being a good counter is my biggest downfall. It is extremely important.


Why is that a downfall?


When I started self teaching, before I got a teacher, I didn't count. When I finally got a teacher, I was way behind in that area and I'm still trying to fix my counting problem. If I was better at it, my pieces wouldn't sound so hackish. It's a real problem for me and its really hurting me as I advance.

That's why I tell people, get a teacher early, it can save you major problems...


Edited by Mark... (01/15/10 04:12 PM)

Top
#1350601 - 01/15/10 04:13 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: eweiss]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: eweiss
Originally Posted By: fe2008
Hey there, I need somebody to tell if I'm really making a mistake by not using a metronome neither counting at all. Is this something I need to get used to? Is this essential?

Going the classical route? Probably. Not classical? Not really.


Playing ensemble. Definitely.
_________________________

Top
#1350778 - 01/15/10 09:04 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: packa]
BlueBKLYN Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 37
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: packa
Counting is for rhythm; the metronome is for tempo. Both are important.

Exactly this.

And I don't know if it will help anyone, but I have lots of difficult measures marked with the counts directly on the music--written in by me. 1 & 2 e & a 3 4 & etc.

Top
#1350849 - 01/16/10 12:49 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: BlueBKLYN]
MimosaPudica Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/20/09
Posts: 16
i find it very difficult to count when the rhythm become complicated...
_________________________

Top
#1350854 - 01/16/10 12:58 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: MimosaPudica]
Nguyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 430
Loc: Massachusetts
Would slow it down help? I wonder if Beethoven, Mozart or Chopin had metronomes in their days; or did they simply just have to count?
_________________________
Nguyen - Student Pianist

Top
#1350964 - 01/16/10 08:43 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Nguyen]
Rachel J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 325
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Nguyen
Would slow it down help? I wonder if Beethoven, Mozart or Chopin had metronomes in their days; or did they simply just have to count?


Slowing down is essential! The metronome was invented during Beethoven's lifetime, but I don't think people really started using it while practicing right away.

I tell my students to stop and think carefully about the rhythm of what they are playing. Something like counting out loud while tapping out the notes of the "busier" hand (on the case of the piano for example), first slowly, then gradually up to tempo, is an invaluable exercise.
_________________________
Rachel Jimenez Piano teacher in Brooklyn, NY / Author of Fundamental Keys method
My professional website: FundamentalKeys.com
Latest blog post: "A marvelous pianist and mentor"

Top
#1351052 - 01/16/10 11:12 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Rachel J]
Nguyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 430
Loc: Massachusetts
Rachel, thank you. Does tapping steady beats LH (2 beats/3 beats/4 beats depend on Time Signature) and tapping RH melody count? Or one has to count out loud together with tapping? I count most of the time but sometimes it’s too tiring because counting is like singing, I can’t breath while I count so for some pieces, I just tap both hands and my left foot. When I play, I stop tapping and counting altogether once I know how it goes. I'm practicing tapping my left foot as playing now but that's too tough together with pedaling and playing both hands.
_________________________
Nguyen - Student Pianist

Top
#1351054 - 01/16/10 11:17 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Nguyen]
Rachel J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 325
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Nguyen
Rachel, thank you. Does tapping steady beats LH (2 beats/3 beats/4 beats depend on Time Signature) and tapping RH melody count? Or one has to count out loud together with tapping? I count most of the time but sometimes it’s too tiring because counting is like singing, I can’t breath while I count so for some pieces, I just tap both hands and my left foot. When I play, I stop tapping and counting altogether once I know how it goes. I'm practicing tapping my left foot as playing now but that's too tough together with pedaling and playing both hands.


Yes, tapping straight quarter notes in the other hand or with your foot can be okay. However, with my students, I've noticed that that requires even more coordination than counting out loud because it requires moving a part of your body to the beat. For the students who are really having trouble with rhythm, doing that would really not help! Just speaking the beat numbers in a normal tone of voice should not be too tiring.
_________________________
Rachel Jimenez Piano teacher in Brooklyn, NY / Author of Fundamental Keys method
My professional website: FundamentalKeys.com
Latest blog post: "A marvelous pianist and mentor"

Top
#1351060 - 01/16/10 11:36 AM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Rachel J]
Nguyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 430
Loc: Massachusetts
So, a combination of all the above would be perfect, whichever one is most comfortable with? The goal is to master rhythm?
_________________________
Nguyen - Student Pianist

Top
#1351094 - 01/16/10 12:37 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Nguyen]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Nguyen
The goal is to master rhythm?


Absolutely. The aim is to get it right - to have the same number of beats in each bar (preferably the number chosen by the composer), and to have those beats coming steady - not getting faster and not getting slower.

Trouble is, most people at the earlier stages (and some at the later stages too) can't tell if they're getting it right or not. In the absence of a teacher, it can be bad and you don't know it.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

Top
#1351096 - 01/16/10 12:41 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Rachel J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 325
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Right... A combination of all is best! It's true, too, though, that it's hard to know if you are doing things correctly without a teacher.
_________________________
Rachel Jimenez Piano teacher in Brooklyn, NY / Author of Fundamental Keys method
My professional website: FundamentalKeys.com
Latest blog post: "A marvelous pianist and mentor"

Top
#1351104 - 01/16/10 12:52 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: ten left thumbs]
BlueBKLYN Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 37
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
(preferably the number chosen by the composer),

grin

Top
#1351112 - 01/16/10 01:04 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Rachel J]
Nguyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 430
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Absolutely. The aim is to get it right - to have the same number of beats in each bar (preferably the number chosen by the composer), and to have those beats coming steady - not getting faster and not getting slower.

Trouble is, most people at the earlier stages (and some at the later stages too) can't tell if they're getting it right or not. In the absence of a teacher, it can be bad and you don't know it.


Originally Posted By: Rachel J
Right... A combination of all is best! It's true, too, though, that it's hard to know if you are doing things correctly without a teacher.

Hmmm… The more I ask, the more complicated it gets… confused

Is Bar and Measure the same? I thought a Bar is either a Treble or Bass staff. Then the Grand Staff has both Bars? grin
_________________________
Nguyen - Student Pianist

Top
#1351116 - 01/16/10 01:08 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: Nguyen]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Ya. 12 bars is the same as 12 measures my east coast friend. thumb
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

Top
#1351126 - 01/16/10 01:18 PM Re: I don't practice with a metronome neither I count. [Re: eweiss]
Nguyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 430
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: eweiss
Ya. 12 bars is the same as 12 measures my east coast friend. thumb
Why 12? Why not 1 bar = 1 measure? You just keep adding more question marks to my already overwhelming brain. grin

Thank you for rubbing it in. It's freezing our rear ends off here and I bet you folks over there are enjoying that Sunny California sky. laugh grin
_________________________
Nguyen - Student Pianist

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
- > Gift Ideas for Music Lovers < -
From PianoSupplies.com a division of Piano World.
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Kenny Barron and Dave Holland
by jjo
12/18/14 10:13 AM
Coming around the backstretch...
by RonTuner
12/18/14 09:11 AM
A new clip of Don Pullen in action
by rintincop
12/17/14 11:03 PM
Learn a Song in 7 minutes: Carol of the Bells
by Hugh Sung
12/17/14 10:11 PM
December 2014 Holiday Piano Bar
by piano_primo_1
12/17/14 06:14 PM
Forum Stats
77340 Members
42 Forums
159949 Topics
2349032 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission