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#1351206 - 01/16/10 03:29 PM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Nguyen]
Brent B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 348
Loc: Western/Central PA
Originally Posted By: Nguyen
KBK, that's an honest answer rarely seen. Sometimes I wonder why we are so afraid being straightforward and to the point? Worry we'd hurt others? I rather be hurt than keep in the dark.


Agree.


Quote:
Just to ameliorate the other side of the argument, Rubinstein did say he could take any 70 year old off the street and turn them into a concert pianist in ten years, from scratch...but he never said virtuoso, and as far as I know there are no 'late starters' (and I mean from scratch) out there on the concert platform.


That's what he said, but did he ever do it?
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#1351207 - 01/16/10 03:32 PM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Brent B]
keyboardklutz Offline
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He was over 90 at the time so...
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#1351209 - 01/16/10 03:33 PM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
F.Chopin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 10
You're right, but I think it's not because they will never can play that good, it's that usually at this age they have already chosen what to do in life and don't have the intention to be a concert pianist... also because they don't think they will can..
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#1351215 - 01/16/10 03:41 PM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: F.Chopin]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Loc: Canada
Being a concert pianist is a career. Not only does the musician need to reach a certain level of playing, but he also has to get bookings, an audience. Who among the young people who start at the right age and reach the right level end up being known? Also, will the older person who is willing to do the work, assuming he has the potential, find a teacher who can teach him what he needs to know? There are two separate things. If an older person did reach this level it is unlikely that we would end up hearing about them.

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#1351510 - 01/17/10 12:04 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keystring]
Batuhan Offline
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Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 908
Loc: Istanbul
if you study 6 + hours a day you could be the piano virtuoso ( i study 10 hours everyday ). But you should know the path which you will follow very well. And for this you should get 15 lessons at least from any piano teacher. After you will able to set up your own working path to become piano virtuoso.

sorry for my english.


Edited by Batuhan (01/17/10 12:05 AM)
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#1351586 - 01/17/10 01:39 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Batuhan]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Batuhan
if you study 6 + hours a day you could be the piano virtuoso ( i study 10 hours everyday ).
sorry for my english.
It's not your English, it's your poor definition of virtuoso.
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#1351642 - 01/17/10 03:21 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Batuhan Offline
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Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 908
Loc: Istanbul
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Batuhan
if you study 6 + hours a day you could be the piano virtuoso ( i study 10 hours everyday ).
sorry for my english.
It's not your English, it's your poor definition of virtuoso.


I tried to explain him from easiest way. And where is the problem in my sentence ? Everybody must study hard to become Virtuoso. Am i wrong ? I play piano for 8 years and my teachers always said me WORK HARD, WORK HARD, WORK HARD. You cant be a virtuoso if you study 1 hour per day.


Edited by Batuhan (01/17/10 03:28 AM)
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#1351645 - 01/17/10 03:26 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Batuhan]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Yes, but unless like other virtuosos you were WORK HARD, WORK HARD, WORK HARD from the age of 3 or 4, you won't make it. Yes you can become a pro, but that's not the same thing.
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#1351646 - 01/17/10 03:27 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Batuhan]
piano_primo_1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 321
Loc: Pittsburgh,PA
or. If you play a piece well and beautifully ,,,,no matter where you are, you're a virtuoso.
Otherwise, you need a "ad agent".
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#1351649 - 01/17/10 03:36 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Batuhan Offline
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Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 908
Loc: Istanbul
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Yes, but unless like other virtuosos you were WORK HARD, WORK HARD, WORK HARD from the age of 3 or 4, you won't make it. Yes you can become a pro, but that's not the same thing.


i cant understand please explain me this quote from other way my english was not enough to understand this. confused

pianonewbie what is ad agent ?


Edited by Batuhan (01/17/10 03:40 AM)
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#1351660 - 01/17/10 03:51 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Batuhan]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Pro is professional, virtuoso is a very, very, special professional.
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#1351663 - 01/17/10 03:58 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Batuhan Offline
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Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 908
Loc: Istanbul
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Pro is professional, virtuoso is a very, very, special professional.


yes its true but knowledge and technique give special abilities to us you think lang lang is a piano virtuoso ?
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#1351668 - 01/17/10 04:08 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Batuhan]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Yes, but a twisted one! You'll find he started at age 3 or 4.
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#1351672 - 01/17/10 04:20 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Batuhan Offline
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Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 908
Loc: Istanbul
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Yes, but a twisted one! You'll find he started at age 3 or 4.


So you think when you make money from the piano you are the virtuoso. And when you rush the piano while playing you are the virtuoso. Your definition is false sorry thumb


Edited by Batuhan (01/17/10 04:22 AM)
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#1351688 - 01/17/10 05:02 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
While adults could probably accomplish a great deal, adults often have far more distractions and obligations than children. Paying the rent for one, or a full time job doing something else for another. To be the best requires complete focus, which is easier when you are living on mom and dad. On top of that, the chances of becoming a virtuoso for someone who began lessons at age 5 or 6 is slim at best. Not all children are equally gifted. Not all children have the will power to practice for hours on end. Not all parents are supportive of their child's gifts. Not all musically gifted children want to be musicians! To become a virtuoso seem to require a large number of coincidental factors all converging into a single person. It's extremely unlikely for a child and basically impossible for an adult.



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#1351697 - 01/17/10 05:24 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Batuhan]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I think when you are doing music, you should just strive to become better every day, and forget things like "becoming a virtuosso".. those ideas so vague and relative, and to me it's just one of the ways we trap ourselves into pursuing false idols/images and feel insecure about ourselves.

To me excellence is just a result of working very hard at something everyday for years. I am not saying you will be just good as Richter or Art Tatum, but chances are that you will be able to play music at a very high-level, and that should be a satisfying experience, even if you are not the best in the world.

And again virtuosso is such a relative term.. I knew this guy in high school who was playing some of the easier Chopin Etudes and I thought he had insane god given talent.. my perspective has changed a lot since then.

Anyways, I think that the pianists whom we consider "Special" got there not because they want to be a 'virtuosso' or 'great'.. they just felt a very strong need to express themselves musically and dedicated their lives to realize that desire fully/effortlessly.

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#1351700 - 01/17/10 05:31 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: etcetra]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: etcetra

Anyways, I think that the pianists whom we consider "Special" got there not because they want to be a 'virtuosso' or 'great'.. they just felt a very strong need to express themselves musically and dedicated their lives to realize that desire fully/effortlessly.
And because their parents dedicated their lives too.
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#1351701 - 01/17/10 05:33 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Batuhan]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Originally Posted By: Batuhan
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Yes, but a twisted one! You'll find he started at age 3 or 4.


So you think when you make money from the piano you are the virtuoso. And when you rush the piano while playing you are the virtuoso. Your definition is false sorry thumb
No. Someone who gets paid to play the piano is a professional. Someone like Horowitz, Rubinstein and yes, even Lang Lang, are on a different level altogether. They are virtuosos.

Well posted 4evr88keys.
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#1351702 - 01/17/10 05:37 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: etcetra]
Batuhan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 908
Loc: Istanbul
Originally Posted By: etcetra
I think when you are doing music, you should just strive to become better every day, and forget things like "becoming a virtuosso".. those ideas so vague and relative, and to me it's just one of the ways we trap ourselves into pursuing false idols/images and feel insecure about ourselves.

To me excellence is just a result of working very hard at something everyday for years. I am not saying you will be just good as Richter or Art Tatum, but chances are that you will be able to play music at a very high-level, and that should be a satisfying experience, even if you are not the best in the world.

And again virtuosso is such a relative term.. I knew this guy in high school who was playing some of the easier Chopin Etudes and I thought he had insane god given talent.. my perspective has changed a lot since then.

Anyways, I think that the pianists whom we consider "Special" got there not because they want to be a 'virtuosso' or 'great'.. they just felt a very strong need to express themselves musically and dedicated their lives to realize that desire fully/effortlessly.


Completely true thumb
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#1351824 - 01/17/10 11:21 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
These types of threads come up so often and then I get to see the pre-requisite response that there is no chance an Adult starter will be a Horowitz.

It seems like everyone always misses why the OP in this case (and in practically all cases) ask the question. Once again here it is clear that the OP's primary goal is to be a Dentist -- not making a living as a Concert pianist.

I will answer this for the n-th time. An older adult is quite capable of playing at a very high level if you dedicate the appropriate amount of hours to the job and you have some built in talent. It is said often here that 5000 hours of practice gets you competence and then 10000 hours gets you to the upper ranges of skill. I believe this because I'm doing this.

I started in my late forties and I'm closing in on 5000 hours. I can play professionally now. Now I'm shooting for a higher standard. I have not found any limitation at all that's tied to my age.

I do wonder how to do it even faster though. I think what child prodigies are able to do are skip some of the trial and error associated with things like technique. They naturally gravitate to the proper relaxed form, etc. while the rest of us 'humans' have to learn it. That's why they're faster at it.

In a book of interviews of the Classical masters, I remember someone saying that for a Classical concert pianist, there's a limit to your repertoire (just from a time investment point of view), if you don't start young.

Well fortunately, I play Jazz smile My repertoire is unlimited theoretically because it is all based on improvisation.

Musicality is not age driven. At least in Jazz, plenty of child prodigies with prodigious technique never beat the Masters.
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#1352418 - 01/18/10 05:18 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keystring]
F.Chopin Offline
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Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 10
Agreed smile
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#1352745 - 01/18/10 04:00 PM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: F.Chopin]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I also agree with Keystring. I can say this about jazz and probably true in classical too.. the problem is that we tend to focus/worship too much on the few celebrities, and we tend to overlook at lot of very talented people.

The more you get better and learn more about the music, the more you realize that there are many many excellent musicians out there who are virtually unknown outside of their community.

And there is also a bias against age as someone mentioned before.. if you are 10 yrs old and you have been playing the piano for 6 years, and you can play chopin etudes, you would be considered gifted, and chances are that you will have more oppertunity to study with better teacher/enviroment. But if you are 38 and you managed to play chopin etudes at the level of the 10 yr old, you probably wont get the same kind attention/hype as you would as a 10 yr old.

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#1352754 - 01/18/10 04:11 PM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: Evaldas]
pianonewb Offline
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Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 221
Loc: No. Va.
What surprises me most about this thread and others like it is the extreme rigidity of thought from posters who otherwise wax poetic about the endless mystical possibilities inherent in music.
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#1352761 - 01/18/10 04:15 PM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: pianonewb]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Originally Posted By: pianonewb
What surprises me most about this thread and others like it is the extreme rigidity of thought from posters who otherwise wax poetic about the endless mystical possibilities inherent in music.
You certainly don't need to be a virtuoso to explore endless mystical possibilities - that's the great thing about music.
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#1353088 - 01/19/10 12:24 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
opps i forgot to add if you are 38 and have been playing just as long as the 10 yr old (6yrs)..

anyways i don't think there is anything wrong with having dreams/fantasies about becoming a virtuosso, I think we all do that. It's just that when we do pursue our dreams, we usually realize that the reality and what you imagined it to be is quite different. You might even realize it's not really what you wanted after all.

I agree with keyboard klutz.. besides, aren't you exploring the "endless mystical possibilities inherent in music" whenever you are playing/practicing, no matter what level you are?

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#1353147 - 01/19/10 02:41 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: etcetra]
keyboardklutz Offline
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One thing this thread has shown me are the differing (and sometimes confusing) ideas on what a 'virtuoso' actually is. Looking back 10 years ago, I would have said it was a matter of practice. Having been very much involved in the game for the last 10 years I realize it's a difference of kind not degree. My teacher discovered, like Rubinstein, how to teach someone to be a virtuoso. She (and I) also realized that knowledge will not take full effect unless transmitted beginning at age 4 or 5.
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#1353156 - 01/19/10 03:01 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Sancte bovinus, Klutz, aren't we a bit wordy this morning?

I deeply agree with what you have written.

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#1353167 - 01/19/10 03:51 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: landorrano]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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I've been taking these Himalayan brain pills this week. Maybe they work?
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#1353186 - 01/19/10 05:37 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: keyboardklutz]
BorisGodounov Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 6
Loc: France
Hi Evaldas,

If you really keep on studying on a daily basis (including saturday and sunday ;-) then no doubt that with the guidance of a teacher and some patience, in a matter of a few years you will discover that, yes, you can play any piece of music you want.

That's just a matter of regularity, practice, pleasure of learning and practicing, playing at every time you can steal from common life.


Edited by BorisGodounov (01/19/10 05:38 AM)

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#1353197 - 01/19/10 05:59 AM Re: Is it possible to become a virtuoso...? [Re: BorisGodounov]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Originally Posted By: BorisGodounov
then no doubt that with the guidance of a teacher
Dare I add good teacher? I know of too many scheisters. You do simplify a bit Boris viz 'yes, you can play any piece of music you want'??

Hey, and welcome to PW - I'm actually nice when you get to know me!
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