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#1356781 - 01/24/10 12:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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spectical, no I am playing from the transcription but there's many transcriptions already done.

I got it from here...

http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/transcriptions.html
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#1356793 - 01/24/10 12:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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I have pretty good ears and I have transcribed to paper many times, but I'm just poor at notating jazz rhythms. Heck, I couldn't even read rhythm well. Although, I found that I was able to read it reliably with just a little concentration and not count with numbers (I do better counting with ga-ga-ga-ga sounds).

So when I notate, it is with missing rhythmic accuracy. Thus, I try to just listen to it and play it directly.

But admitedly, something as fast as Matrix can fool one's ears. I just happened to listen to Chick's Rendezvous in New York version of Matrix, and he's doing sixteenth runs at 250bpm+. It's just a blur of notes. Who can transcribe that, let alone play it??? That is definitely at the uppermost levels of technique. I'm going to guess that those runs were two-handed.

I've learned so much from working on this transcription that I might do it again on something complex. It's slow going but I think I'm getting faster.

Transcribing wasn't big on my agenda before.
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#1356823 - 01/24/10 02:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee


I've learned so much from working on this transcription that I might do it again on something complex. It's slow going but I think I'm getting faster.

Transcribing wasn't big on my agenda before.


Ok you've confused me again. You say you're working on the transcription, but I think you mean working on the piece "Matrix" as transcribed by x. Now, are you saying you'd like to tackle, ie play from a transcription, or actually transcribe something complex now?

I've actually never had the patience or the interest to transcribe anything to completion. I get to a certain point in the process, and then realize that I don't really want to spend my time learning that particular solo anymore. I can see the value in it though, and wished that I had more patience and speed in transcribing because I'm sure I'd gain lots from it.

Usually, once I start to learn any new tune I'll actually be inspired to compose or improvise something in the same vein. I'm not sure this is a bad thing, but it makes it harder to concentrate on the task at hand.
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#1356826 - 01/24/10 02:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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I meant both (Transcribe or work on an existing transcription). Before I've always transcribed myself - with limited notation.

I'm like you too. I've not usually transcribed something to completion. Usually I pick on something that interests me. But when I've confirmed a pattern, I usually move on.

I don't think I can dedicate so much to it as others though. Most things I can just hear and then I don't need to transcribe using notation. I'll just play it on the piano directly.

What I'm doing now is a bit of a special case as I'm trying to get a handle on Chick. From here, I'll probably move on to someone else.
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#1357663 - 01/25/10 11:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Hi everyone,

I am back to share my next stage in learning. I finally added the left hand. I am not going to torture you in going around the circle of fifths. I'm posting a short example that will give you a taste of my practice session. I have a little motif that I heard while listening again to Pandora. I loaded the ii-V-I progression into Band in a Box. You will first hear the 4 measure motif in C Major, then you will hear my own on the spot 4 measure improvisation. I repeat this in Bb major.

http://www.box.net/shared/qdsus10hfm

Beeboos -- I found an interesting motif from your posting of 'I got it bad and that ain't good'. I will be using it in my next practice session. Thank you for the freebie.

Knotty - going around the circle with these patterns is actually fun! (Ok, I get my kicks in strange ways -- lol)

CMohr -- -- thanks for your thumbs up.

Jazzwee - Someday in the not to distant future, I will try adding these motifs to a real song. smile

Barb
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#1357747 - 01/25/10 01:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
ten left thumbs Offline
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That was very enjoyable, Barb! smile And rhythmically you sounded totally in control.
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#1357774 - 01/25/10 01:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: ten left thumbs]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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TLT - thanks. I have dreams that all these baby steps I am taking will pay off in the future. wink
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#1357854 - 01/25/10 03:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Offline
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Barb, you're really improvising now thumb That's a pretty big move. I'm proud of you!

Just to keep you motivated, the improvisation building blocks take a long time to build, but at some point, your brain says, "I've got enough" and then you see that big move where you can actually do it.

I think it happens when you're not thinking about the elements anymore. Then your mind can focus more on the music. Sometimes you will think it will never come, but it does. Often very suddenly.
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#1357867 - 01/25/10 04:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Jazzwee -- thank you so much for your feedback. I wasn't 100 percent sure that this is the way to go.

Now, I will just be patient and keep on doin what I'm doin. At least I'm having fun doin it. smile
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#1358032 - 01/25/10 08:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Offline
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Barb, I think you just need to have the guts to improvise on real tunes and not worry about what comes out. At least not at first.

I got reminded of stuff I recorded 4 years ago and I just listened to some of them and as can be expected, I've come a very long way. smile But listening closely, I found some budding ideas in the lines, like I was starting to get phrasing and swing. At this point in my learning, I didn't know what notes to pick yet so it was based more on copying of ideas.

Anyway, I hear you playing and I can hear the same budding concepts in there. So that means you're on your way, in my estimation. thumb

As I said, from that point I didn't know exactly what notes to play. Now I know to teach playing 'chord tones on downbeats' as the basic starting point, which translated to another form is saying that 'let harmony drive your note choices'.

Of course as you get more advanced, you start understanding that harmony isn't just the chord stated in the leadsheet and that alternate harmony can be implied. But that's another story.

There are exercises I did to just get these chord tones to dominate my playing. One of them was to sit on one chord, let's say a Cm and with my fingers on 3,5,7,9 of the chord, to come up with as many phrases as I can. Try doing that for extended periods and your hand will start to assume this stretched position that gives the most options.

Just think of that, how many lines can you come up with with your hand on Cm?
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#1358096 - 01/25/10 09:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
There are exercises I did to just get these chord tones to dominate my playing. One of them was to sit on one chord, let's say a Cm and with my fingers on 3,5,7,9 of the chord, to come up with as many phrases as I can. Try doing that for extended periods and your hand will start to assume this stretched position that gives the most options.

Just think of that, how many lines can you come up with with your hand on Cm?


I hear ya jazzwee. There will be many, many combinations. Lots of work to be done. I better get back to those keys. grin
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#1363743 - 02/02/10 12:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Swingin' Barb]
jazzwee Offline
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I've been practicing a lot of tunes at different tempos and I feel a sense of frustration once again. Must be that time where one waits for some change to happen.

I was trying to record some things for the recital and I'm irritated by a little unevenness. What's funny is that this I'm sure has always been there but even the slightest unevenness bothers me.

Perhaps this is good news because it means stuff I couldn't hear before is very distinct now. I'm just not happy with anything I record.

My time has actually gotten better overall. When I play with a backing drum beat, that part is not bad. I'm more obsessed by articulation issues. I listen to some players like Kenny Werner, and his legato articulation is just so smooth especially how it relates to his swing. It's like I know what I want to sound like but I can't get there. I've said this before and it really is true. Being good with Time affects everything, even the articulation (like landing the note at a fixed point just behind the beat). Very hard to maintain. Lots of control needed and which I don't possess.

Anyway, I'll try to record for the recital and see what happens. It's all improvisation so one never knows what will come out. I'm thinking of doing 'Stella by Starlight'.
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#1363751 - 02/02/10 12:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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I should note too that Matrix (my part-time project), is going well. I've got large chunks of it almost up to tempo. To be comfortable with the timing though I play it slower. It's turning out to be a great technical practice too for Chick type articulation, aside from its theory aspects. I have to perform it again to my teacher in a couple of weeks so I do a little bit of it everyday.

Surprisingly, I'm doing the 'Rhythm reading' very well now so I don't think I'll be failing at my next lesson. Nothing like being pushed to fix a weakness. Then the weakness is removed.

There's this guy on Youtube that plays Matrix with Chick in the background. He calls it being 'one' with Chick. At first I thought that was impossible. But now I realize that it's actually doable. Some of it is just limiting because of the memory aspect of remembering the entire solo. It would probably take months to perfect it to match Chick directly. Not sure I want to go there. Too much work.
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#1363866 - 02/02/10 05:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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I used to spend a fair proportion of my practise time transcribing Jarrett solos and then playing along with them. On the one hand it was very enjoyable to do, it felt like I was as close to the mind of genius as it was possible to be, and it was a very good excercise to actually do the transcriptions (fantastic ear training exercise). But after a while I realised that even if I did that for a thousand years I would be no closer actually improvising like Jarrett, and at that point I gave it up. Now I prefer to concentrate on devoping the skills that I need for improvising rather than the skills required for playing back transcriptions, and I must say that I think this has been a much more successful approach for me. I don't think I will ever play along with a transcription ever again, not since I realized that the magic is not really in the notes, rather it is in the placement of the notes at a particular moment in time, and that cannot be recreated later.
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#1364036 - 02/02/10 12:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Interesting point beeboss. I was actually in the anti-transcription camp for a long time. I haven't done too much of it. And even the little I did was usually just a few choruses. But what I did pick up from those few transcriptions still sticks in my head today.

In general though, I approach transcriptions differently. I'm not so interested in doing ear training as I'm not deficient in that. Usually I analyze the lines and the phrasing at a more conceptual level (against the underlying harmony), then I move on.

There are others who certainly dedicate a tremenduous amount of time doing transcriptions. I'm not one of those. I think I'm interested in seeing more of "what's different?".

Now I have a special project though related to Chick and that's to incorporate some of his articulation styles into my playing. Pretty hard task, except apparently for young prodigies...So this is more of a technical challenge. Maybe I need to be a drummer like Chick...
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#1364053 - 02/02/10 01:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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Transcription is not only for the ear training but also the notational skills. There is nothing that improves your notation better than working out how something that you know in your head looks like on the page.
You are probably right though, in order to sound like Chick you probably need to learn some drums.
Time is the skill that takes longest to improve I think, so anything that helps that has got to be good.
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#1364089 - 02/02/10 02:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
Time is the skill that takes longest to improve I think, so anything that helps that has got to be good.


You're not kidding smile So how long does it take? (at least to be acceptable).

As I mentioned earlier, I feel that there are many aspects to time. I can play reasonably well against a beat. Not so well using just an internal clock.

But more difficult I think is the minute control of time within phrases. I think this is tied to just better neural control of the fingers (especially in the unexpected and unplanned situations in Jazz).
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#1364114 - 02/02/10 03:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Time is the skill that takes longest to improve I think, so anything that helps that has got to be good.


You're not kidding smile So how long does it take? (at least to be acceptable).



Ha, if I knew that! Seriously though it depends what you mean by acceptable. What I noticed is that as my time gets better my perception of time gets better as well, so it still seams like I still have the same distance to go. I really notice a difference when I listen back to how I used to sound a few years ago so I know I am getting better.
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#1364155 - 02/02/10 04:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Time is the skill that takes longest to improve I think, so anything that helps that has got to be good.


You're not kidding smile So how long does it take? (at least to be acceptable).



Ha, if I knew that! Seriously though it depends what you mean by acceptable. What I noticed is that as my time gets better my perception of time gets better as well, so it still seams like I still have the same distance to go. I really notice a difference when I listen back to how I used to sound a few years ago so I know I am getting better.



That's exactly my experience. I'm glad I'm not alone. smile I'm picking up minute time issues that just bug me. Except I couldn't hear them before. Ignorance is Bliss smile

But it does make it seem like a never ending battle. I hear some 'Pros' with time problems in their solos. I bet they think they have great time so they stopped improving.

My teacher will often repeat that Time is what separates the masters. I saw a video of Kenny Werner giving instruction on doing solo lines, and he does everything with a metronome. He will 'chunk' it but always at tempo. The chunk could be as small as 2 notes. I haven't done enough of this. This could be a good thing for me to start on with Matrix since it really is more of a speed/time problem.
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#1364169 - 02/02/10 04:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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Thats right, time is what separates the masters from the rest of us.

I always have a pile of rhythmic stuff to work on, but it takes a long time to make progress so I always accumulate more and stuff to work on. It's a good problem to have I guess.
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#1364357 - 02/02/10 09:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Talking about Time/Rhythm -- I was taught to break up a line in smaller chunks. Somewhere along the lines of short-short-short-short-long. A short line being typically shorter than a bar, long line being longer than a bar.

Now this was not meant as an actual limitation since Keith Jarrett is known for having particularly long never-ending lines.

But the idea with the short phrases was to be able to synch back with the rhythm more frequently. For someone like me with rhythmic challenges, I should apply this rule. Sometimes I forget. The reason I forget is that phrases in my head can be long ones.

Again my teacher didn't say to not have a long idea, but by inserting ghosted notes (non-played notes) in the line, you achieve the same thing and add space which can be used to synchronize time.

Lots of top players use short phrases. Unfortunately for me, learning Chick Corea stuff isn't helping since some of his phrases are 12 bars long smile

BTW - the short....short-long concept also has a tension and release aspect to it. Short lines add tension. The long line can really be part of the resolution both in shape as well as harmonicically speaking.
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#1365723 - 02/04/10 04:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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Thought I would just post up something I was practising today, ATTYA in 7
Doing it in different time sigs is really good exercise!

http://www.divshare.com/download/10379503-aec
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#1365854 - 02/04/10 08:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Neat Beeboss! Ala Brad Mehldau smile How well versed are you in odd times? I'm just wondering how long it took to be comfortable in 7/4. I think 5/4 I can do comfortably with ATTYA. 7/4 is a little unusual. For one, getting a backing track. You're lucky that you can make your own.

I think Melhdau did it both in 7/4 and 5/4 if I remember right.
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#1366079 - 02/05/10 01:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Beeboss, I didn't want you feel alone so here's my practice session.

This was done using my keyboard with Swing Drum Patch, bass, guitar, and Vintage EP. Done live so it kind of sounds like a gig smile

My Romance

http://www.box.net/shared/r04v1uv50h

Here I was practicing using dotted quarter rhythmic motifs. At least that was the intent but it didn't carry to my actual recording as it was distracting when recording. I'll try again and focus on it. It's something I picked up from Kenny Werner and his version of this tune which is about the same tempo. Except he did it solo piano.

I specifically needed to rhythm section to time it. I've tried it with just piano and I couldn't really get the beats right.

This was just one try so lots of errors (well I did it was practice smile ).
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#1366084 - 02/05/10 01:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
One shot recording of Stella. I didn't plan it out in my head clearly enough so I was wavering on whether to play it fast or slow. Because I was planning on Rubato initially, no metronome here.

Stella by Starlight

http://www.box.net/shared/41f8cco447
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#1366352 - 02/05/10 12:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Neat Beeboss! Ala Brad Mehldau smile How well versed are you in odd times? I'm just wondering how long it took to be comfortable in 7/4. I think 5/4 I can do comfortably with ATTYA. 7/4 is a little unusual. For one, getting a backing track. You're lucky that you can make your own.



Hi Jazzwee, I find 7 to be easier than 5 somehow but can play in either ok. The more I do it the more I relax into it. I am trying to practise at fast tempos at the moment cos its such a struggle.

Here is a tune I recently played in 5 ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQtQGDsCixU

Good work on Stella and my romance. It could do with some bass though.
Send me a pm if you want a couple of backing tracks
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#1366444 - 02/05/10 02:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss

Good work on Stella and my romance. It could do with some bass though.
Send me a pm if you want a couple of backing tracks


Neat Beeboss -- I appreciate the offer. I see how quick you are at making these! Will PM
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#1366468 - 02/05/10 02:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Posts: 6990
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Originally Posted By: beeboss


Here is a tune I recently played in 5 ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQtQGDsCixU



That Zurich sounded really good! I get really drawn to unusual rhythms, not that I can play it, but it catches my interest.

This sounded like Monk playing in 5/4 smile The harmony is fascinating!
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#1366564 - 02/05/10 04:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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It's by Hermeto Pascoal. He is a very interesting musician, a genius I think.
His style really appeals to me, it's the infectious Brazilian rhythms maybe.
It's great practice playing over an ostinato like that, for developing some independence between the hands.
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#1366565 - 02/05/10 04:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Inlanding Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Neat Beeboss! Ala Brad Mehldau smile How well versed are you in odd times? I'm just wondering how long it took to be comfortable in 7/4. I think 5/4 I can do comfortably with ATTYA. 7/4 is a little unusual. For one, getting a backing track. You're lucky that you can make your own.



Hi Jazzwee, I find 7 to be easier than 5 somehow but can play in either ok. The more I do it the more I relax into it. I am trying to practise at fast tempos at the moment cos its such a struggle.

Here is a tune I recently played in 5 ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQtQGDsCixU

Good work on Stella and my romance. It could do with some bass though.
Send me a pm if you want a couple of backing tracks


beeboss,
Thanks for putting up such an entertaining, lively, well-executed piece! I've not heard of Hermeto Pascoal until now. I like the atonal sounding passages combined with a driving drone bass line and heavy influenced latin rhythm in 5 around it. No easy task, for sure. Fantastic!

Glen
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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