I had an interview this afternoon with a very sweet, very sensitive young lady who I believe has the ability to become a very fine pianist some day. However, I'd like to strangle her last teacher.

- Photo-copied copyrighted music.

- No teaching of basic hand or finger motions/touches.

- No teaching of foundational theory, ie, note names, intervallic concepts, etc.

Teachers, for heaven's sake, if you're photo-copying music, stop it right now. Not only is it illegal, you're cheating hard working musicians and colleagues out of their deserved income.

As for the other two -- what possible excuse can you offer for such shoddy teaching???

How far along is this student? Are there lots of bad habits to overcome? I hope that as you introduce the concepts of touch and theory that they will "take" easily and start enhancing her playing right away.

As for the copyright issues, I agree! The only printouts I give my students are of public-domain works freely available online.

On the other hand, I do one thing that might not be strictly kosher... Curious about your opinion on it, actually... If a student asks for a rock or pop song, I buy digital sheet music online from a place like musicnotes.com, but then I will often create a custom arrangement (simplification) for my student using that copy I bought as a guide. I obviously haven't gotten permission to create a derivative work before doing that. What do you think?

I totally agree

I think it probably depends on where you are as to whether this is allowed - where I am it's not allowed, without permission. Yet I've done it too, though I never photocopy music for students. I'm led to believe that if you did ask permission it might be denied, too.

It's an interesting one. Do bands that do cover versions of songs which are still presumably under copyright get permission from the owners? I'd actually be interested to know.

Me too!
I don't get it! The parents (or students) pay for the books. The books are much nicer to work from. You can keep them, or sell or donate your early books when you grow out of them. No wonder the music shop always seems extra pleased when I go in there and buy up big for my students, maybe I am still in the minority.

2. Good teaching should be able to produce the physical/technical basics, so you have my symapthy here, (unless there is something developmentally wrong that gets in the way).

3. Re basic understanding of the written music... I'm not so hasty. Sometimes for some kids it takes a few goes, and for some the aural and memory skills they learn instead, and at a receptive age, can give them a great advantage.

I have a recent transfer student who was playing ameb grade 4 (first Bach Inventions) level with her previous teacher but couldn't read. The teacher, student and even parents were Very Frustrated by this and left this teacher more or less at the teacher's suggestion. Something like "if you won't learn to read I can't teach you anymore". Reading problems apparently date back to the first teacher (before previous) and the blame is fully apportioned here. There seemed to be a lot of anger around recent experiences of piano, culminating in pulling out of an exam at the last minute. Some anger was from the parent towards the child for not getting it together.

Sadly this student does not have the excellent ear+memory skills that usually come with a student whose reading is behind. It turned out that the student couldn't read and feel rhythms at all. Using my (ok rather unusual) rhythm training she made a conceptual leap forward in the first lesson, resulting in quite a lot of happiness and relief from her and parent. Basic reading followed. Soon after, she had 2 new successes at school involving performing arrangements that she and a few friends had worked on together (and getting high grades for these helped too). She's happy in her music again after being very close to turning into one of those adults who "wish things had been different and can't play a note". And there are a lot of these

But do I conclude that this previous teacher is shoddy? For a number of reasons, no. But I know quite a bit about this teacher although we have never met. She seems to have a lot of skill and a lot of success.
Maybe I am a softie

Did I mention too-long finger nails?

Tell her she's in danger of catching one between the keys and ripping it out ...



... ooh, sorry, I just fainted ...

ok Ok! you win!! You win worst new student of the month, John. Wish there was a special prize -? the challenge and satisfaction of fixing all these things Um, hope it goes better next week.

Seriously though, are you taking on this student? or was that just an interview, and you can decide not to? Good luck whatever you decide.

Hey, send her to me! I need more students.

AZN, I will send you any new students as I have absolutely promised myself not to take any more! I know my limits and that it is bad to stretch them.

Thanks for the offer. I was partly joking, as I obviously can't take students from another state, or another country.

John,
What if you look hard to buy a piece but it's out of print? It's illegal to photocopy it, but what if it's the exact piece that student needs?

Of course, I want my students to build a library of music books and respect composers, but I feel composers and their heirs should keep stuff in print. For instance, Joan Last is terrific but how can you buy it now? She's passed and her estate isn't doing anything.

Do you ever get tired of waiting for a book to come in and just photocopy it for the time being until it arrives? It can sometimes take months and months for a book to arrive.

If it's out of print the publisher may let you make an authorised copy. Contact them and ask for advice.
I agree. Once again, I'd contact the publisher (that is, the one that used to publish her works). At least they'll then know that there's some demand. If no-one ever says anything they won't know.

I know, the above advice can seem a little optimistic. But it's worth a try.

Incidentally, I often find copies of Joan Last works in second-hand book/music shops, and even at garage sales. Not that that really solves the basic problem

At our annual World Piano Pedagogy Conferences, I've had the real pleasure of meeting some top notch teachers from Australia. I don't know how representative they are of the general piano teacher population, but they surely were wonderful. The comments from several of you from Australia suggest that you might fall in the same category.

When I taught in Germany, all my German colleges were both accomplished musicians and grads of music schools/university departments. Regardless of the quality of their teaching, they had the foundation knowledge to be quality teachers.

Unfortunately, here in the USA, if you can spell Piano Teacher you can be one. Or at least you can offer to teach students, and if your rates are low enough, you'll fill a studio with children of gullible parents.

The reason for my original post was to confirm something Betty said some time back - there are some really bad/poor teachers here in the USA - and to provide examples of what we contend with when we get transfers from these teachers.

My interview with the student went really well - the young lady is loaded with potential and I believe we can alter course, correct some foundational problems quickly, and she can be on her way in a few years as a successful pianist.

About the photocopy issue. This student had a double pocket folder loaded with at least 50 sheets of photo-copied music, out of current, in-print music. There is simply no excuse for this by any teacher.

I have had issues with out-of-print editions, and in one case, the local music dealer was able to obtain and sell me an authorized photocopy from the publisher, and in another case, I was able to purchase directly from the publisher. At our conferences, I have suggested to FJH, Hal Leonard, Kjos, and many others that they make individual sheets available for teachers to download. This is probably a money losing proposition for them, but at least they know that there are teachers who are interested in operating on the up and up.

Yesterday I read a description of "a very sweet, very sensitive young lady who I believe has the ability to become a very fine pianist some day" who had been cheated by a former teacher. I was quite sad, thinking of the trust one puts into a teacher, and the work she will probably have to put into turning things around. It was good to see that a competent teacher was now there who could help her reach her potential and maybe her dreams if she had any.

Canonie, you wondered if John would refuse to take her on because of the work involved. I can see why a teacher would be reluctant to fix another teacher's mess, but looking at the wider implications, it means that if a student gets cheated by a first teacher, she is at great risk to never get out of it because anyone who is competent will not want to take on that work. Effectively that would condemn a badly taught student to continue with other poor teachers - what a struggle! How unfair for the student.

For me it underlines once again the importance of the first lessons of the beginner. Some have said "poor teacher", but coming from the other side of the fence I say "poor student". Imagine the 7 days a week of practicing to fill in all those holes. But also imagine the wonder, if she accepts the new things she isn't even aware of, the things she probably doesn't even dream of being able to do, since she had no tools. If the teacher takes on the challenge, which knowing John (and the tone of his post) he probably will.

I have seen it spelled Paino Teacher.

From John: Unfortunately, here in the USA, if you can spell Piano Teacher you can be one. Or at least you can offer to teach students, and if your rates are low enough, you'll fill a studio with children of gullible parents.

The reason for my original post was to confirm something Betty said some time back - there are some really bad/poor teachers here in the USA - and to provide examples of what we contend with when we get transfers from these teachers.

My interview with the student went really well - the young lady is loaded with potential and I believe we can alter course, correct some foundational problems quickly, and she can be on her way in a few years as a successful pianist."

John, I'm glad to hear your response to my comments about how badly some transfer students play because of how badly some piano teachers teach. I've been telling it like it is for some time now and get censored for my dire comments and tirades. I'd say those responding in disagreement are lacking my first hand experiences. I started commenting on poor teaching back in the 1980's and it indeed has become much more of a problem as time marches onward.

Poor teaching needs to be identified so that unsuspecting parents and children do not get caught up in a bad situation from which there may be no recovery.

Betty

Betty - you weren't censored. Your posts, comments, and opinions are still here.

What *did* happen is that some people disagreed with your characterization of essentially all, rather than some, transfer students having been inadequately taught. I don't remember anyone here thinking that there are *no* inadequately taught transfer students. Of course there are.

It's your persistent generalizations from the particular to the universal that I, and several others, object to, and have objected to for a couple of years. In this case you described a whole class of piano students - transfer students - as being poorly prepared, and attributed it to poor teaching by every one of their previous teachers. I don't think that's a realistic possibility.

I have no doubt John has described what he saw in his interview accurately. But, for me, it wasn't the point of the disagreements with Betty. One example, or many for that matter, doesn't translate to "all" - and in particular doesn't translate to "all previous teachers were poor teachers."

Cathy

John, it would be wonderful to read a few months down the road how well this young lady is doing, and whether her perception of playing the piano has changed.

Well, just had new carpet put in the whole house a year ago. And just discover that it was installed wrong! Just had all the carpet ripped out because the carpet installer, installed it all wrong! It cost $700 just for the 2 pianos to be moved and put back into place because of this error! Not to mention the cost of having another carpet install do it all. . . again! (The reputable company did made it right, and covered all the expenses.)

This carpet installer just moves from one Company to another!

So what's my point! Well, this sort of thing goes on all over the place. Not just with piano teachers!

Forgive me here, but I see mostly classical piano teachers making statements suggesting that their way is the only way!

Should add that the Registered Piano Teachers' had a professional "jazz" instructor come in to "try" to educate them on the jazz style of playing! It was entertaining to say the least actually. And very sad at the same time! Because they lacked the rhythm!

My suggestion is to have more than one piano teacher in your piano learning journey!

My guess is that even the so called "greatest piano teacher" can't possibly know it all!

I can spel paino techer so I am one. But to defend my studio would take us off track, and I really have no interest in doing so. But I did want to comment On Diane's post.

I have been through a lot of teachers with my own three kids. They had to change teachers due to a variety of reasons, and only once was by our choice. Along the way, though, I learned that many of these teachers, who were all professional, educated, certified, and pastuerized, found fault with the previous teacher. We rolled with it, and in the end, came away pretty well-rounded. (All that rolling, you know.) Our take was that each teacher had their own strengths and priorities. Although frustrating at the time, I believe my kids became stronger musicians because of the variety of teachers. (My middle son is now in his last year at Juilliard. Teachers continue to have different strengths and weaknesses even at this level -although they aren't quite so critical of those who have come before them. My son feels incredibly blessed to have learned something from each one, but would be the first to say he didn't learn EVERYthing from any of them.)

In the public school here, there was an experiment to leave children in the same classroom for several years, the idea being that the teacher would get to know the student well, and teach more specifically to their individual needs. Instead, students ended up with big gaps from spending too long with the teacher who didn't like math, or couldn't spell.

Of course, there are also students who can't spell and don't like math, and no teacher is going to change that. I have a couple students I would HATE to be representing me as a teacher. Maybe it's because I'm a bad teacher, maybe it's because my magic wand is broken, or maybe it's the kid.

Diane, I can only speak for myself, but to me, poor teaching is poor teaching, regardless of the genre. Anyway, I have to assume that if a parent selects me, whether from reading about my studio on the web, or from a personal referral, they are looking for what I teach. I certainly don't hide it. So if a student comes to me who has been poorly taught, and reflecting back on more recent transfers, it's at least 75% with significant, major holes, we've got a problem in our profession.

It occurs to me that, of course, if parents were satisfied with what students were being taught, we wouldn't have transfers so much as move-ups. A teacher might work with students K-8 and then routinely move students up to a teacher who specialized in upper intermediate/lower advanced level material. Now days, it seems like transfers are coming at every grade level.

That's my goal, and I will certainly report. I have to report that two of my latest HS transfer students have absolutely floored me with their hard work and quick grasp of the various points they needed to improve their musicianship. Unfortunately, a couple of others are floundering, and I am desperately trying new ideas searching for a break through.

Do you ever wonder what teachers who have kids who have transferred away from you might say about your teaching? (And I am not disagreeing that there are poor teachers there - I know of many!). I'm pretty sure they might say that Tom never learned to read the staff (he's an ear learner, and the process of reading has been difficult) or that Sadie has lousy technique (Sadie, who I have perhaps spent a good part of a year working on proper touch, relaxation, etc..., but who is just a little uncoordinated and resists carrying these things through to practice at home) or that Zach didn't even know that the key of G major has one sharp in it (this just never sticks with him). Suzie has collapsed joints.

There are bad teachers, there are bad students, there are bad combinations. I like Lollipop's comment - that each teacher likes to blame it on the teacher before. So true! I've heard myself do this.

John- the finger nails truly drive me crazy!!!

John, you must be excited.

Bands don't get permission, but venues where the bands play are required to pay a regular fee to ASCAP or some agency which is ostensibly responsible for getting royalties to songwriters. The system is broken, though, and most songwriters don't see royalties-- only the big stars do.

very much appreciated reading the discussion this morning


I asked the question to get discussion back on track after some laughter about long fingernails. I was pretty sure that John was taking on the student. Me? I would definitely take on a student like this, I enjoy the challenge and rewards of making a difference, and agree it is very unfair not to!

John and others, I acknowledge the point about there being some "highly unskilled" teaching out there, it may be that I don't get this sort of referal quite as often where I live and my particular circumstances. Those australians you met were very likely the committed and interested ones

Long Story of Poorly Taught Student: One of my first students came from a country area where she had a very cheap teacher. This student had been learning for 2 years using the precharts with numbers above and below a horizontal line (similar to the introduction that Betty uses I think). She had practically an alergy to the grand staff and all it represented, it was truly amazing how at sea she was. She couldn't point to the first note that would be played, and didn't seem to know that music reads from left to right, couldn't see the order of notes as they are sounded. Even "non-readers" can usually do this!

Fine, perhaps she has excellent aural and memory skills, and will thus make great strides, but sadly no. A big problem with the former teaching was so few new pieces, and keeping learning some pieces for nearly a year, and having no pieces that she could actually play in a musical and reasonably accurate way. She needed to learn LOTS of pieces asap but had so few skills to learn by reading or rote or aurally. This is the only student I've had where it genuinely felt that I had to work backwards for a long time, where it seemed to me that it would have been better if she'd had no prior lessons at all...

In less than 3 months her sister (who started from scratch at the same time of the transfer) had passed her in all areas. So I do understand these frustrations, I was very sad for her, and had to work really hard not to give an indication of how lacking I thought her preparation had been (I think this would have depressed her and felt undermining for her parent).
End "dire" Story.

The other point that I think has been well made by Lollipop and others is that it may do a teachers a disservice to describe all transfers as all badly taught by poor quality teachers. The general group of committed and good teachers are a diverse group offering a range of emphases that aspiring musicians can take advantage of. No-one can be the best for everything and everyone. And I would thoroughly recommend any student experiencing more than one teacher, if possible. YOu certainly learn a lot about teaching.

Or the more particular point is that I am uncomfortable making a complete judgement on incomplete information supplied by a teacher's failure (student who leaves them), not their successes.

In Canonie's comments about her student, she said: "This student had been learning for 2 years using the precharts with numbers above and below a horizontal line (similar to the introduction that Betty uses I think). She had practically an alergy to the grand staff and all it represented, it was truly amazing how at sea she was. She couldn't point to the first note that would be played, and didn't seem to know that music reads from left to right, couldn't see the order of notes as they are sounded. Even "non-readers" can usually do this!"

Pre-charts are excellent in beginning lessons to start the student in playing great songs (melody line between two hands at Middle C usually) and they help eye movement training across the page, they establish steady beats using TA's, they make the melody of a piece the focus, where legato playing and phrasing are first attempted by using the lyrics to base breathing and phrasing on. Finger skills are really the primary success of pre-charts: the student learns that one must have an anticipation or intention of using a particular finger as the next note.

But, pre-charts are over and done with very soon. Maybe up to 10 lessons or much less is all you need to establish this first step to reading music.

When the eye hits the music staff all that was learned in pre-charts is now appearing as a note head on the music staff to show pitch, keyboard location and duration.

For this gal to have spent 2 years using pre-charts is absolutely unexplainable as a teaching program. Instead of getting her off to a good start in music reading it has totally done the opposite.

We have lots of tools that pave the way to learning to read music. Once the student reads music accurately we don't need the tools/tricks/games/training/drilling/flashcards/devices anymore.

Thanks Betty, I realise that I should probably have inserted a note that it wasn't a problem with the precharts, just a problem with 2 years of them! and no aural/memory work, no complex rhythms... and staff-alergy as I call it. Perhaps worst of all was very few pieces learnt. Can you imagine me sitting there and asking these most basic questions, and keeping the surprise out of my voice (although inside I was saying Wow! Oh dear!)?

I didn't want her to think that she was behind... So I said something like "And now it's time to enter a Very Exciting phase of your musical training; learning how written music works!
Let me tell you a story about an ancient monk who lived in Florence and wanted to send some music to Rome via horseback...." Very little historical accuracy, but fun

Absolutely, and to that end, I get annual evaluations of my students. That's the reason I'm so aggressive about getting my students, all of them, evaluated each year through Piano Guild Auditions. And I'll confess that I have received some blistering comments on occasion. Some of them were dumb a$$ oversights, and some were, IMO, unwarranted, but still, I learn from them, and hopefully improve as a teacher.

Probably, most of us with years of teaching under our belts, can recognize rather quickly which problems originated with a teacher and which originated with students.