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Great musical ideas on your Saturday trio scep. Particularly liked Footprints. Nice playing on that. Great groove!

Great approaches to Nef. I was paying close attention to your concepts there and it was nice. But there the rhythm section and you were so far out of sync that it was distracting. I think there were enough skipped beats in there to make me lose my place. I don't think the drummer set a real tempo in there. Looks like you were trying though. I did see that the time got affected when you do the fast lines (the usual culprit). Mostly it sounded like the drummer had the biggest issue. Also, LH maybe too strong there IMHO.

Oleo sounded great too. However this time, it seemed like the Bass player and Drummer were not in sync with each other, so that's very difficult. I haven't heard you much with mostly eighth notes and that sounded great. Laid back style.

BTW - No doubt about very effective syncopation on all of this. So obviously your playing changes only in solo piano.

Was this a jam or your usual trio?

Actually you listened to two different groups. The one with footprints was me with a guitarist and drummer that I've played with a few times. That recording was done just before xmas.

The other recordings (piano trio) were done last night with two people that hadn't met each other yet. I've listened to those recordings today a bunch of times, and I'm trying to figure out what is exactly wrong and I think I know what it is:
Despite the obvious dropped beats and such what was happening was I believe I have a different idea of the swung eighth note than the drummer, and we never reconciled that. I thought it was that I was constantly rushing (I know I rush), but I think that I may be doing more of an even eighths feel for any push beat rather than a triplet feel (with quarter and eighth on each pulse). So every syncopated beat that I was doing would be slightly ahead of the drummers beats. It's strange because I've played with this drummer before and it's never sounded this off. As a result of feeling this way we actually did a bunch of straight eighth feel stuff too. Unfortunately it still didn't gel the way I intended, partly because the bass player also had a hard time getting into a groove.

I'm going to post another few recordings as a comparison. I've recorded some stuff as a duo with the bass player, and I have some older recordings of a trio with the same drummer. Maybe people could chime in and let me know how much of a problem that I'm causing in these situations or if I should look to get different people together.


Duo:
http://www.box.net/shared/kpnjddpujg

Trio with different bassist:
http://www.box.net/shared/ra4ihqi7gb

Glad you liked the tune. It's one of my favourites.
I have several tunes recorded, though not so many jazz (trio) piano (working on them however . . . the guys in the trio want to play more original material and who am I to refuse them their wish?!?)
When I mean I have several recorded, I mean from my life as a professional composer; orchestral, soul/RnB, ambient, film, radio and the theatre. My other professional (producer; I will be producing/recording/mixing a jazz piano CD, 4-hands/1 piano, two of my music mentors - a husband/wife pianist duo - both in their 70's will be performing) life will occupy my mind for the next couple of weeks, but I'll try and keep up with the posts here as I enjoy the banter - and the commitment to jazz piano.

"Well You Needn't": I like the Monkishness of your playing, but I feel that you are a bit too heavy with your left hand, which gets in the way of the bass. Your right hand is fine, and I would like hear more focus on that. (the heavy LH is a problem I deal with as well, when I asked my mentor what to do he said "put it in your pocket" = keep it away from your soloing)

"What is this thing": starts off really swingin'! I like the overall exuberance. It sounds like you're all having fun! - and re also comfortable playing together . .

You play well scep. Excellent musical content.

On the first tune, the bass player was in the pocket so you were the one losing it here. I listened closely to see if you lose the time when the lines get complex but I heard it on a simple line too. It's the rushing thing that you already know about.

I have the same problem so my teacher suggests I break the lines into smaller chunks so there's lots of space. The purpose of which is to listen to the rhythm section to resynch.

On one of my jam recordings (Blue Bossa), I had these very long lines and then I went out of the pocket with the drummer. I realize now that if I broke the lines up, I could have heard that. Your lines are nicely syncopated but there's not enough space for you to listen (based on my teacher's advice). So maybe you can temporarily practice with shorter lines.

I don't think there's any problem with your long lines normally though. This is just a practice strategy. Maybe it's also having an ear dedicated to listening.

I think the masters do the same but they are able to hear the rhythm section through minute spaces.

One thing that might screw up the rhythm section is if everything is played on the offbeat. An occasional downbeat may be needed to sync. Nef I think was played with very little on the beat that I recall.

I was thinking of how my teacher approached Nef and I recall he did a pickup frequently. So at least he set the rhythm to have a regular pickup and so the time was very strong even when it wasn't on the beat. Or strong pulse of the chord at 1+.

Good topic though since I suffer from the same problems greatly.

Hey Chris, you were commenting on my LH on Stella too. Was it the dynamics? I didn't think my LH was too loud. But it was too busy?

When is it too busy vs. supportive? Wasn't I just doing a simple Charleston?

Apparently your mentor and my teacher share the same ideas about the LH! I've learned to play without the LH so much. But it's hard now to determine how to bring it in with the proper approach.

I'll look into this. The trouble for me though is that I'm really averse to short choppy lines. Way back when I started listening to jazz I distinctly remember how I didn't like how some players I knew (who were probably emulating their idols) played these lines that to me seemed too short.
In any case, I've gravitated towards the long line, so I suppose I'll have to revisit trying to get used to shorter musical ideas and make sure these are not rushed. Currently I'm trying to work with a metronome every day, so hopefully this will help address some of the issues of rushing as well.

I like your long lines because the syncopation makes them sound short. This was just a suggestion a learned to at least train your ear to pay attention outside of oneself.

After you've trained yourself, then go back to whatever length lines suit you.

Ya, well who knows how long that will take. Another trouble is that even if I do get it down with the metronome getting 'trained' to play with others seems still to be another task and I wonder if it is actually possible to train without the others present. I say this because I imagine part of the problem is not the actual timing issue by itself, but the timing issue when there is something at stake like sounding good with those you're playing with.

Yes, I felt the dynamics were not balanced. Also, a tad bit heavy on the 1's. I think it's very important to breath in one's comping. Yesterday I was at a jam and I found myself fighting with the bassist's lines, the beat fell apart all the time until I 'put-my-left-hand-in-my-pocket', also, I really need to work on laying back, I do tend to push too much (maybe I'm just a frustrated drummer . . . )

Hear hear.

For me it's recording with the Iphone App IRealbook and then listening to what I record. I can hear my timing problems over and over. We'll see if it gets resolved in the long run. But it's hard to get a trio available so this is the only solution.

BTW - I had no confidence with jams until I did the Iphone App thing. So this has been immensely useful to me.


My only lack of practice is when in the real world, the Drummer/bassist creates a different groove or tempo to what you intended, or changes the ending. Happened many times to me. Unfortunately I have no easy way of practicing such.

Yup, it's not going to get solved in a couple of days for either of us, but if we both work on it, maybe we can detect improvements in future postings. That's all we can do.

Well, the problem is that Charleston has one of the chords on 1 and the other on an offbeat. So you're saying really that I shouldn't even do Charleston comping.

I remember you told me to do Charleston on Lullaby of Birdland though.

In your playing, I can see that you don't really focus on a rhythmic role on your LH. Yet many players commonly do, though typically as stacatto jabs. So I admit I'm a little confused on what to do. Sometimes you can't help but jab without thinking just to balance the activity on the RH to to sustain some rhythmic feel.

A pun? Double entrendre? If the latter then yes, I agree, this will help. If the former, bravo!

Isn't it a problem of risk taking? I mentioned earlier about how most top players play. They're not pushing to the max technically at all times. Those are done only at a few moments. To our perception though they're pushing the limits at all times. Well KJ probably does but I'm talking about many successful players on a regular gig.

Shouldn't we strive for a baseline that's rock solid? That's different from each of us of course.

Scep, just to my ears even Chris doesn't play with pyrotechnics most of the time. In fact very little. Mostly I hear a musical statement being made. I'm having to reassess what I do too since I have even more technical limitations and I know, from listening to the jams, that I can accomplish more by doing less.

This is a new thinking for me since I'm always pushing myself.

Ahh a connoisseur

Or maybe decide when and when not to use it, I tend to use it when I'm comping a wind player and we're pushing the beat; like say in the fourth solo chorus.


Wasn't that when you were going to a jam to play that tune? Comping others?
For comping LoB in a not-so-secure setting I would use the charleston, both the starting on the ! but also the variation starting on the 2and


Well it's the stabbing I'm trying to work out of my system, I really don't like the sound of it.

Here's KJ's left hand, comping the first 16 bars on Stella, not the solo but during the melody (from the album "Standards Live" an absolute "must" CD to have!)

Get the LH + RH here!

Look how KJ shifts the beat around, syncopating the melody and then colouring it with a chord.

Very helpful! Did you transcribe this? Not just for comping but looking at his voicings. Nothing earth shattering which is good to know in any case.

Your voicing comments are really good because so far, I don't think of my LH much. It comps automatically. But I like what's happening just from paying attention to the dynamics and texture. Mostly it's from inattention. I'm seeing changes in myself just by being conscious of it.

As you know sometimes though you have to comp some on beat 1 to establish where you are on the form, particularly in solo piano. I think it was Beeboss that said I played with no Beat 1 for a long time.

I think this is part of the problem where Scep's drummer got so lost on Beautiful Love. Perhaps the issue is to listen. If the rhythm section is not that strong, some Beat 1 comping may be needed. Charleston is a very strong rhythmic beat for swing for example. Although admitedly it is a very strong comping style.

KJ - stuff I picked up

Bar 2-3 - I use this same voicing here. Good deal!

Bar 5 - F7(b9) sub. I guess in general he subs b9 for the dominants. Might be a good use of a b9 upper structure voicing for me.

Bar 7 - interesting that he made a cluster voicing so far down.

Bar 9 - Ebm sub for A7.

Bar 12 he made the Dm a Dm7(maj). I forget you can do that on a minor ii-V.

Mostly his voicings are traditional Bill Evans rootless or even simpler two note voicings.

Let me know if I missed something.