During my current work up of Rachmaninoff's "Elegie" (Op. 3 No. 1), I have encountered a technical "speed bump." In measure 58 my friend Sergei has inserted a triplet of quarter notes against four eighth note at the last two beats of the measure. This pattern then repeats a few more times in the piece. I have never played anything like this before--3 against 2, yes, but 3 against 4, no.

I'm thinking that the sequence is something like:

RH----------1/4----------1/4----------1/4
LH----------1/8---1/8----------1/8----------1/8
Beat--------3-----and----------4------------and
[Edited by me to get better alignment]

(I don't seem to be able to get the alignment I want when I preview. Except for the first 1/8, the rest of the 8ths come on the beats, and parts thereof, approximately half way betwee the 4ths.)

Two questions:

1. Do I have the rhythm diagrammed correctly?
2. Does anyone have a mnemonic like Betty's NOT-DIF-FI-CULT for 3 against 2?

I have my lesson tomorrow night, but the day off today and I'm impatient to learn it.

For those who are interested:

Here's a link to a page with access to a PDF file of the score,

and

Rachmaninoff himself playing it.

This has rapidly become one of my favorites. It is quite technically demanding, especially when one throws in expressing the range of emotion this piece evokes.

I appreciate and help and guidance.

Have you seen this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXQjFRU83gU&feature=fvw
He uses "not very difficult" for 3:4.

Lollipop--

Thank you so much. That's just what I needed.

And now if I don't have a table or a piano, I can beat my chest.

That sounds like my favourite scene from Strictly Ballroom:
"You got to feel de rhythm.... [nice body!]..." said with spanish accent.

For what it's worth, I don't think the phrase "Not Very Difficult" works too well, because it's not our natural tendency to say it in a 4:3 polyrhythm. I can tell you the phrase I learned at Conservatory. It might get censored, but here it goes:

Pass the goddamned butter

I've seen it as "pass the golden butter".

The version I learned in school _will_ be censored.

"Not very difficult" doesn't work! The word "very" has the stress on the first syllable.

Here are some clean ones I just made up:
"Play a Chopin Etude."
"Learn to practice daily."
"Win a plastic trophy."

Love it... I never had a pnemonic for 3:4... but was stuck with "nice cup of tea" for 3:2

Let's be careful that the weight of the syllable does not throw the meter off and misplace with unwanted accents and/or weaknesses in sound.

We speak regionally in the US and we are also an international group in our language.

I think we need to speak aloud with these syllables while working out the measures in question to see if we are stressing some notes more than others.

What seems natural to us in our speech may have a different outcome in the rhythm of the song.

It's really that the note pattern establishes the rhythm and we have to apply these words to the rhythm pattern. Some of these mneumonics given are "off setting" to the rhythm we are trying to establish. They hinder rather than help.

You could be "off" without recognizing it - which is really a definition of arrhythmia.

Be careful. Be diligent. Test out, one at a time: your vision, your ears, and your movement in rhythm. Does it all agree?

Betty Patnude

too funny.

(it seems to work perfectly)

My teacher said the phrase was "Pass the gol' durn butter". (But I don't know if I have to say that with a country accent, and I certainly don't know how to spell it!)

I have found it quite interesting that there turned out to be so many mnemonics for this situation. Interesting also in that some people said that some of them wouldn't work. I had trouble conceptualizing that and wondered why they wouldn't work until I tried the original "pass the ...... butter" and my Estonia, Essy I call her, just stopped playing even though I kept my fingers on the keys. She apparently was offended by my profanity.

But, seriously--if that is now possible--I just spoke to a drummer friend of mine. We were talking about this and he said that he got taught "Together-right-left-right-left...etc." Whatever works, huh?

LOL! I learned the mnemonic phrases from a drum teacher, and true to the drummer stereotype, he was not afraid of the profanity. Especially when he told me how to speak 5 against 4 "Pass the goddammn *#$%ing butter".

He also said that for 3:4 you could say "wash the car and wax it", but IMO nothing naturally expresses 3:4 like pass the goddamn butter.

I usually start out with "both right left right both", and if the student doesn't take to that I try the verbal phrases. I'm not a big fan of mnemonic devices.

Some of the syllables given are too heavy for the action you are putting into place - they may result in an accented note. If you accent the word, you will accent the note being heard.

Try for no accents in speaking/thinking your mneumonic/syllables and a steady flow of each hand maintaining it's specic beats alone in time. Then check the co-ordination between hands.

Thinking like a drummer is a good connection to make.

I promise I'll quit after this.

The 5 against 4 got to me. Now I have this vision, since this IS the teachers' forum, of a blissful domestic situation.

Mom and Dad quietly enjoying the evening after dinner and from the next room comes the pipey voice of their sweet 8-year-old after a piano lesson:

"Pass the goddammn *#$%ing butter.
Pass the goddammn *#$%ing butter.
Pleeeeeze
Pass the goddammn *#$%ing butter."

There are no "smilies" for "guffaw, chortle, giggle."