I didn't have the luxury of being taught proper pedaling a million years ago when I began lessons. I have a dozen books on pedagogy (and degree in Music Ed) and only one book really elaborates on proper pedaling. How exactly do you begin to teach pedal to beginners? (The feet reach the pedal, and they've gone through PA1) In Dennis Agay's book, Art of Teaching Piano, he states that the hand and foot should NEVER move simultaneously, yet then goes on to say the moment the chord change occurs, the foot comes up - so wouldn't be simultaneous?

When starting a piece, do you have the child depress the pedal before the first note is played, when the first note is depressed, or slightly after the first note is played?

Fairly early on, I teach students to pedal. There is no exact time, it's more of a gut feel with each student. However, there are some cautions which I emphasize with students.

The pedal isn't pumped. Your right and left foot generally remains just to the right/left of the damper/una corda pedals; when you pedal, you're generally on the ball of the foot. The ball is that cluster where the toes combine with cartilage to form what feels like a solid mass.

While stroking a key, I have the student press down slowly, until they find the point where the dampers just begin to move off the strings. This is the upper point when pedaling. I also have them find the point where the dampers are cleanly and completely off the strings. This is the lower point of travel for the foot. Any more is wasted energy and if they hit bottom or allow the pedal to spring up, they generate unwanted noise.

Once they learn how to pedal, then they have to learn when to use the pedal.

The two major forms they need (there are many, many refinements, which I won't go into here) are on the beat pedaling and syncopated pedaling. Mr. Agay is describing syncopated, where the pianist holds the pedal to the point in time where the new notes are just beginning to sound. That way, the dampers are off and a legato sound is created.

Others may wish to expand on these basic techniques.

I introduce the damper pedal to students away from reading music. Goal the way I see it is to get them to listen carefully to the pedaling first, before adding it to a piece. Student will play a scale hands alone and pedal each note, using the syncopated pedaling that Agay describes. As they strike the first note, the pedal is depressed, then lifted when they strike the second note, then pedal down again. We keep repeating this exercise until the student is pedaling correctly through the scale, then I will introduce it in a piece.

Barb, so then, it's simultaneous? While striking key, pedal goes down, next key, pedal up/down, etc. Agay describes playing key, then depressing pedal after, which I think, especially for young ones, is quite difficult. Maybe I'm confusing myself now.

Irenev
just to get the coordination with a young student I have them "play and say" something like (in 4/4 rhythm): Chord-up-down-then- chord-up-down-then and so on. They play the chord on the first beat, lift the pedal on the second, depress it on the third beat, hold for the fourth beat.

Later with experience this up-down of the pedal happens so quickly after the chord is played that it is almost at the same time, but it is still just after, and I believe this is called syncopated pedalling (although I don't use this term).

If you don't teach a student to pedal very deliberately after the note or chord like this, they can accidentally get a habit of releasing the pedal too early, which leaves a gap in the sound. So, yes, it is almost simultaneous in the long run, but worth learning in this delayed fashion. Hope that makes sense. Keep in mind I have not so many years of piano teaching experience, but I am thus quite close to working this one out for myself

Pedalling on-the-beat is a different sound/technique, which might be taught in the context of a piece where you would use it only a few times. It is less confusing to teach, although the sound-effect is more subtle for students to hear I think.

I would also like to have an attempt at explaining syncopated pedaling.

Imagine I want to play 2 chords, first a C triad in both hands followed by a Gb flat triad in both hands, all in root position. I have chosen these 2 chords because they involve quite a large hop and also they are going to create a clash of harmonies if I don’t get the pedaling right.

If I don’t use the pedal there is a gap even when I move my hands as quickly as I can. The pedal will help me to create a legato effect.

I play the C chord and then depress the pedal. I hold the pedal down while I move my hands to the Gb chord and play it. I have succeeded in creating a legato effect between the 2 chords, but now I have the clashing sound of these 2 chords sounding together. I need to release the pedal immediately. As soon as I have released it I can depress it again so that I am ready for the next chord.
To summarise, hold the pedal down and change it (a quick up down) immediately after you play the next chord.

Confusing and contradicting Agay information? In his Teaching Piano volume 1, page 92, it says, "after the pedal catches the first chord, the pedal is raised and then again depressed at the instant the keys sound each new change of harmony." Does this mean that the pedal is to be raised BEFORE the new chord is played and depressed at the time the chord is played? I don't teach legato pedaling that way. I have the student lift the pedal at the moment the new note/chord is struck, then depress it immediately after.

First thing I do is to open the piano up and let the students discover some things about the action of the piano and how each pedal affects the action.

And name each pedal correctly (no it is not the loud pedal and the soft pedal!)

As for playing, it is done as suggested above, according to the age and learning ability of each student as well as the coordination.

Sometimes it is done in one of those extra makeup lessons or a lesson when they have been sick and had not learned their last week's lesson.

But I do let them experiment the damper pedal with single notes played with finger 2.

With beginner older students and adults who learn the 3 triad arpeggios within the first month's lesson, they also learn the damper pedal with it, just for the fun and experience of it.

Others above have great suggestions of other methods.

Oh, I have them learn saying the phrase UPDOWN really fast.

D - O - W - N.......UPDOWN! or really UPD - O - W - N.

Barb, and on page 19 of Agay, he says, "One of the secrets of effective pedaling lies in correct timing, in the syncopated, after-beat nature of the foot work. Hands and foot do not move simultaneously; the pedal is depressed after the keys are struck." Agay gives an example of a half note chord, followed by half note rest in 4/4 time. "The chord is played on the downbeat and the pedal is depressed a beat later; the hands are lifted on the third count and the pedal released on the first beat of the next measure, simultaneously with playing of the new chord." So in my confusion, it seems contradictory.

No, Barb, it doesn't. You play the note/chord, and as soon as it sounds, like milliseconds later, you raise the dampers (press the pedal far enough). You keep the dampers off the strings until the next harmonic change, which could be the next note(s) or a few beats later, and as soon as the new harmony is played, a quick up and down pedal motion is done.

Note: if you train your student to find the point of release, this is less than an inch motion by the foot (the pedal is a lever, like a see-saw, so it has to move about an inch to affect a quarter-inch motion of the dampers).

My teacher gave me an exercise: count "one - ee - and - ah - two - ee - and - ah - three - ee..." etc. (Count off 16th notes, basically.)

Play the note on "one," then press the foot down on the pedal on "ee." Hold the pedal down through "and - ah," then on "two," play the next note while lifting the foot. The foot comes back down again on "ee", hold for "and - ah," then repeat.

It's helped me a lot with timing and coordination.

Most contributors to this thread all seem to have a similar basic understanding. The difficulty seems to be in explaining the technique, or understanding other peoples explanations. I don’t find it easy to teach either, but I have picked up some helpful tips here. I like John’s idea of finding the upper and lower points of travel. That seems an obvious thing to do now, but I had never thought of it before. I like Barb860’s idea of teaching pedaling while playing a scale.

I think that part of the reason it is difficult to explain is that when you have been doing it for years it becomes automatic. In fact I think my foot does it by itself without any input from the brain at all.

It really is not that complicated. (Here I go again.) When the harmony changes you need to change the pedal. John, Barb, Canonie, and myself earlier, have all said that this should happen immediately after playing the new harmony. If you do it too soon, there will be a gap. Too late and the harmonies will overlap. It is better to be late than early. It is better to have a brief overlapping than to have a gap.

In teaching the pedal, I think it is better to have one RH note playing in a C 5 finger position and holding each note for a whole note count. The student then learns to co:ordinate the motions being made on the keyboard and the pedal against a audible steady beat.

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (keyboard)
1e2341e2341e2341 (pedal)

Should this be too difficult at the piano, sit on a chair with a table top and do this movement exercise which will clearly follow there instructions using RH thumb and ball/toes of right foot.

Count and tap foot: 1234 several times to establish the steady beat
Play and hold: Thumb 2 3 4 several times to complete steady beat

1 e2 3 4
Add the e behind the 1 and just before the 2
1 is the the thumb being played and held until played again on 1
e is the right foot which will do up/down/held only on the e

If it's still hard, maybe a Rr 2 3 4 would work: R is the thumb r is the foot and both hold until their names come up again. Once it's accurate keep the movement going until it feels easy.

First training pedal as an exercise allows students to grasp the "when" of the exchange with any note value. Best to start with whole notes giving ample time for anticipation, then smaller increments of half notes and quarter notes. Each exercise would be based on one note value.

Then convert this to pedal marks |_______| in simple pieces before expecting pedaling with accuracy over intricate rhythms and chord changes.

Start simple and build slowly in any concept.

Also teach student to listen to his results. Is he avoiding muddy sounds? Don't exceed the students coping ability. Stop before he combusts.

Use a metronome if necessary to make sure the 1 - 2 is not being rushed because of the e sound. The 3 and 4 have to fall on the appropriate beats also.

I hope the format came out logically for viewing and reading.

Betty

Great tips - I have found several methods here that I will use for different students. The chord change from C to Gb will be perfect for one of my adult students. And I have one student who is way too heavy with her foot - clunk, clunk - so will use John's technique with her.

This is all too complicated, imo. I simply have the student put their foot on top of mine and their hand on top of mine. Works like a charm. I also have them learn pedaling by simply listening. My phrase: "You pedal with your ear, not with your foot."

Have put my foot under theirs too, but have never tried putting my hands on top of theirs as well. Will try that! Never thought of doing that! Thank you for the idea!

New meaning to "hands on" approach!

Edit: Have actually gotten down "under" the piano, and, with a plastic glove on, have worked their foot with the pedal that way too!