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BTW - after spending hours and hours on Chopin Etude 10/1, I started playing ATTYA again and suddenly I sound completely different. My confidence in playing large intervals spread my hand more. It's like a crash course in really large (10ths and 11ths) hand busting arpeggios (some asymmetrical ones). But they really just outline chords.

I don't expect to learn a lot of these. This Etude is fairly short. And it's eventually something I just work on for a longer term as soon as I get comfortable.

10/2 sounds interesting too since this one is fast moving chromatics. That would be pretty good for jazz.

The Chopin Em Prelude sounds pretty jazzy actually. It's one of the pieces I was given long ago to develop good touch with chords and melody.

I just need a crash course since Hanon isn't doing it for me. The motions are too simplistic in Hanon. Articulation problems in soloing often occur because of hand twising positions you suddenly find yourself in.

Going back to rhythm and articulation for a moment. Each evening, I've been listening to a drum track and then I just see if I can synchronize to the swung offbeat as we've been discussing here.

BTW - apparently this concept is so unbelievable to the people in the AL thread 1 as they think I'm smoking somethin'. But whatever.

So first I make sure I'm on top of the beat with 'Ga - Ga - Ga - Ga'. And I tap my finger in sync. Then I switch to 'Uh-Ga Uh-Ga...' making sure the Ga is still on top of the beat but my finger taps on the Uh.

I make sure the 'Uh' matches the drummer's 'A' in 'A Ding'.

It's too easy at a slow tempo so I'm doing about 160bpm.

Just checking myself with a solo, I'm having success at having control of where I land on the beat, particularly with a long series of eighths. And no, Scep, I'm not say "Uh" when I solo. So it seems to get ingrained. I feel a solid laid back feel. Unfortunately the recording has a very weak rhythm section volume so it's not particularly easy to hear where I'm landing.

Solo's nothing special. But I hear improvement in the articulation now. So give it a listen and see if I sound like before still.

http://www.box.net/shared/cekrx1eiyl

EDIT - I do notice I lose it a little when I don't have any space. So I'm listening to myself instead of the rhythm section.

Well, I would have probably reacted the same way in my earlier days. I think we're on the right track though. Everything in it's time.



I've been listening to your ATTYA solo you posted on 1/15 and comparing it to this one. It seems like you have more accents on the upbeat now and you lock in there sometimes. But, for the most part it still doesn't seem to lock in to the upbeat. Not to be discouraging, but alot of the time it seems to be hanging somewhere between the upbeat and the downbeat.

I get that you are trying to delay the downbeat to play more "straight" as opposed to my approach which has less delay on the downbeat. I wonder though if it might help to play with more swing to get the feel. I've been working with the metronome on the upbeat and I've found that the hard part is feeling the downbeat as the 1st beat of the triplet without losing the steady pulse of the upbeat... which I think is the goal, whether you play that downbeat or delay it. I think I'm starting to get it but it's going to take awhile.

See if you can play a bass line right on the downbeat with the metronome on the upbeat. I've been working on this at about 90-100bpm and it's surprisingly difficult to do. But I think it really helps with getting your focal point on a steady pulse on the upbeat, while still having to deal with the actual downbeat. My theory is that once this is ingrained, the downbeat can be delayed when you play lines but you'll still lock in on the upbeat of the underlying triplet feel.

Scott, clearly it is easier if I swing harder. But that's part of the challenge.

Maybe the answer is just to do this kind of practice slower.

I've got listen to it again but mostly, I was adjusting the downbeat position. I was doing that on purpose instead of playing straight exactly all the time. I was hoping the offbeat was in the same spot. But it's really hard to tell unless I slow it down. After I while I just react to the feel. So if you say I'm off then I will go back to the drawing board.

Slower is difficult though. When you play slow then you are forced to swing harder. The straight playing almostly sounds like a counter-rhythm and is very hard to focus on.

If you listen to my ATTYA solo piano I posted a few weeks back, I swung harder and it was easier. But it's not really the long term articulation I want.

I'm glad we're having a detailed understanding of this since obviously there's only few of us that can discuss it at this level. I really seriously believe this will have a major change on our playing because we know what's happening.

How did you track my offbeat position BTW? I could hardly hear the rhythm section in the recording.

I want to make sure I understand this. Are you saying your metronome is on the the SWUNG offbeat or just the even offbeat?

If this is swung, man, that sounds hard. I'll have to study that.

>>BTW - apparently this concept is so unbelievable to the people in the AL thread 1 as they think I'm smoking somethin'. But whatever.
You're not talking about me, are you?

Yes, on the swung offbeat.

Just feeling the triplet subdivision and emphasizing the upbeat. Could be wrong but it just feels rushed to me. Maybe if you can input the recording into some software and slow it down you'll be able to tell for sure.

I was definitely rushing at times. So there's no doubt about that. But when I wasn't rushing I thought I was hitting it correctly.

Now your approach is challenging. I have a question though. If I put the metronome on the swung offbeat, then isn't the note strike going to emphasize the downbeat? This is obviously fine on LH bass but we're developing RH articulation here. It's still good for feel but might we be training the RH to strike at the wrong moment. This is why I was training my hand to think of the delay.

However, the problem is that I'm solong too and thinking of notes so it's hard to think of pure articulation. If there's any success in what I did, it's that I did not play on top of the beat at all anywhere.

Playing on top of the beat with straight eighths sounds horrible. And I made that mistake a lot on uptempo tunes.

This is a bad recording for that because the volume of the rhythm section is too low. But at least I know what to focus on next.

Are you having success with this practice? Your articulation is much better than mine though so you don't have as far to go. In your case, you could shoot for varying the downbeat position on the fly ala Wynton Kelly. He had such amazing control over that. He would change it over groups of phrases.

When playing bass lines the idea is to be able to feel the downbeat in reference to the perfectly timed upbeat. This is to strengthen the feel of the downbeat while maintaining awareness of the upbeat as the primary beat.

To help with right hand articulation, I'm practicing playing lines the same way... against the metronome on the swung upbeat. Mostly I'm just working on swung eighth note lines right now, but triplets, sixteenths, and straight eighths work too.

I'm also working on playing solo arrangements with the metronome on the swung upbeat. This is especially difficult because it requires a solid feel on both the upbeat and downbeat, while handling alot of space. But the metronome gives the upbeat in order to perfect the evenness of the upbeat. I think learning to feel the upbeat as the main beat and with perfect evenness is the main goal. I'm just starting to get it but I'm convinced that this is the key to swing so I'm going to stick with it for awhile.

I will start doing it your way too. It gives a solidity the swung offbeat instead of the vagueness of an "uh".

I would have preferred a metronome doing "A-Ding" so I get two references. But no metronome like that and the "A" is too weak sounding in a typical ride cymbal.

You can create a "metronome" with a sequencer on the 1st and 3rd beats of the triplet. I used to practice this way.

Hey guys,

I thought I would upload a short improvisation on the piano were I *TRY* and copy Mehldau's phrasing for a laugh. I recorded the melody lines on top of a simple accompaniment. It's in 5/4(also it's originally a sung composition, so I was singing whilst playing, but trying to ape Mehldau's approach.)

Go easy on me! I've literally been playing for a few months! LOL

Played on a Yamaha DP.

Also, I've really tried to be as expressive and loose as possible with the time, stretching it a little here and there.

EDIT [Thanks Knotty!] http://www.box.net/shared/uk39ydhies

And the master playing it live:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zBQ52LxWWA

Hey,

your link is no good. You gotta hit share on your file and get a special link.

++

Scott, I got a better answer from my teacher. He said my method wasn't precise enough and what Erskine wasn't saying was that you have to do the full triplet subdivision internally.

So for a more exacting practice, it would be metronome on the beat, and then hit the 'let' in 'Tri-pel-let'. The way I'm thinking practicing this is to hit quarter notes on LH bass, then playing 1 eighth note on RH per beat landing on the 'let'.

Then expand to two eighth notes at various dragged positions on the downbeat one.

He didn't want me to get to "analytical" with this but to make sure I can feel when I'm off. Obviously not so easy...

Wow. What a thing to try! One of my favorites. I was then waiting for you to go into two handed improvisation! Impressive.

Tell me how you planned this one out. Also can you post the changes to this?

I can sense that drummer in you doing this to exacting rhythmic standards

Sounds pretty cool to me!

Wow from me too! Thanks jazzwee:) I didn't even feel good about posting it in this forum as I am nowhere near any of you on the piano. When I listen back I hear 'flamming' (a drummers term for notes not coming down together) in places, and the time could be better. It's funny to me that having good time on the drums doesn't immediately translate to the smaller muscles of piano playing. Actually not funny, really frustrating...

In terms of planing first off, I have listened to Drake way before he became this kind of cult figure. Being a player in the UK growing up he was always talked about and I had all his albums. So I am very familiar with his sound and tunings etc. He used some really interesting tunings on the guitar btw.

Secondly beyond the 'math' of my rhythm scale etc.. music is ultimately emotion for me. As a drummer I often felt I couldn't express certain things. And it's all too easy to just play fast. Some of the most amazing drumming I have heard is not fast at all. Hence my move to the piano. To increase my expression. You can play one note in the right place and that's all it takes. Miles was a master of that, imho.

The changes are:

C to Cm to Bbm7add13 to Abmaj7, one bar each. At least that's how I play it. Maybe it's wrong.

I like the change from major to minor in it.

In terms of phrasing. That is by far the hardest thing to answer. I listened to Mehldau's version many times. Singing along and working out what he was doing. Mine is nowhere near his, but I wanted to give it a shot. It's a mix of straight eights, sixteenths, and various triplet meters. And some 32nds too. But pulled and pushed a bit.

And two handed improv.. You gotta be kidding. My head would melt. LOL

Did you transcribe his LH voicings here? Sounds like you got it right. If you can notate it would really be nice.

I've avoided Riverman because of what it entails to get past the melody.

But this is so much fun. It's been my dream to eventually play this (together with 2 handed improv). And I just thought it was hopeless so I never gave it a try