I sang a tune to give a 6 year old the idea of how the music goes. I was only part way through and she cut me off "OK. Got it." Then last night my son watched "American Idol" and I saw Simon cut off a singer auditioning...with "OK. Got it."

This same student came in saying "I can't believe Santa brought me the wrong size shoes!" And went on to say that the shoes were a size too big.

So I got criticized along with Santa. I intend to ask certain kids if they want to hear me sing the song...since a couple of them really don't like to hear me sing. (But I've sung soprano in choir and sing in tune IMHO.)

Ever have kids who just don't want to hear you sing?

They have a choice, they can sing it themselves, or suffer with me singing it!

I like that, John!

Ann, I can't believe your student went all Simon on you. I would have had something to say about that! And geez, when I was a kid we always got shoes a size too big so we could "grow into them".

Don't ask if they want to hear it, just sing.

Elaine

Hi John and Elaine,

The thing is I didn't recognize this comment as Simon until 2 days later when my son had the show on. I just knew this child had cut me off quickly. I like the idea of saying OK, YOU sing it.

When she complained about what santa brought her...I was on high alert and told myself whatever you say, do NOT tell her there is no santa! I'm such a matter of fact person, but I know parents get very angry with ANYONE who finally tells their kid there is no Santa. She had the shoes on, and apparently her mom bought them a size larger...like you said so she can grow into them.

Funny how moms and Santa think alike, isn't it?

My 6YO knows there's no Santa. She used to be afraid of him so I made it clear from the beginning that he's not real. I too was a little afraid that she'd tell her classmates and upset some parents...

Again, in the too much tv department: one student who just left, a 3rd grader, was quoting FES on "That 70's Show:" "I said good day, sir. Good day!" as he waived his hand and left the studio.

Since we're on the topic of singing, I do have a question:

My 4-year-old can't sing in tune. Will she out-grow singing out of tune? When she plays on the piano, she can tell when she has hit the wrong note. But when she sings that song, it's so out in left field, I can hardly recognize it's the song. Her pitch kind of goes up when it's supposed to go up, and kind of goes down when it's supposed to go down. But the intervals are nowhere near what it's supposed to be.

We listen to music every day at home - not always music with lyrics. I sing to her (and I know how to sing in tune). She doesn't usually like to sing along. Oh please tell me she'll eventually sing in tune.

On subject of Santa: We didn't do Santa with our kids. We spent a lot of time telling them to keep the fact that Santa is not real as a secret from their classmates. It's hard. Their version of secret is "Santa's not real. But I can't tell you, because I'm supposed to keep it a secret."

She's definitely a candidate for some ear training. Presumably, as she can talk, she is sensitive to pitch changes, but she's not listening to herself, or perhaps she has insensitivities to certain frequencies.

As my wife's deafness increased, I began to realize that as she loses nerve endings, she cannot hear certain pitches, but hears others just fine. Hearing aids amplify sounds, but does nothing to help the ear hear the frequencies where they've lost the nerve (or could it possibly be the vibrating hairs?). It may just be that people we consider tone deaf are really lacking in sufficient frequency sensitivity to differentiate what pitch they are making, where as, when they were very young, they did have enough to form speech patterns.

Just a WAG on my part. I have a teenager who is finally beginning to recognize up and down pitches after nearly a decade of lessons.

She'll eventually sing in tune. Well, most likely. I spent many years teaching frogs, and the vast majority ended up singing in tune, especially if they seemed to have no problems perceiving pitch. Many children do not sing in tune at 4. That doesn't mean their sense of pitch is deficient. It often simply means that they haven't learnt how to use their singing voice. Many haven't even found their singing voice, but sing in a sort of speech-y way. Many singalong CDs for kids don't help one bit as they are often pitched too low - which doesn't help the child find their singing voice. The best thing you can do is sing with your child. Find where she's singing, imitate her pitch and gradually move it. Play singing games. Imitate sirens. Make it enjoyable and she'll start to sing happily, and most probably, in tune. And don't worry.

I would second Currawong's advice, don't worry and it will (probably) come, and the best thing you can do is sing together. If there is reluctance be very sure to make it "singing together because it's a lovely song" Not "teaching her to sing".

I put a LOT of time into singing in the first years of piano (helps to develop expressive playing as well as aural and rhythm skills) and there have been many out-of-tuners who later fall into correct pitch. I have permission to ask them to copy my pitch and use up and down hand signals etc because I am their teacher, but my advice for parents is you can't do anything better than lots and lots of singing at home together. Arm hand and body movements that go with the song are wonderful too - does anyone know "Ga--loop went the little green frog last night"? It's a great movement song

edit: Ann, my students don't get any choice! I sing all the time and they had better sing too, or else!!

My brother was a hopelessly out-of-tune singer for the first twenty years of his life. Not "I can't recognize what you're singing" bad, but pretty bad. He's an amateur musician and plays several instruments, but singing somehow never clicked. Then he started playing the Rock Band video game. I'm not going to champion the cause of video games here (in the teachers' forum, of all places!) but singing in Rock Band means continuous feedback about where your pitch is and where it ought to be. After a couple months of that, he's now able to reliably carry a tune.

So I certainly wouldn't worry about it at four years of age.

Yes, I know that song, only I learned it as "Gluck-Gloom went the little green frog one day". I recall car rides as a child singing away...loved that song!

Mom of Beginners,

It sound like she can discriminate pitches when she hears them just fine because she recognizer a difference in what she was expecting to hear.

She needs to use her voice more. Pitching voice to notes is helpful and since the voice is a muscle it will get progressively better with usage.

She should be encouraged to sing without having to be perfect in it. Her ear will assist her a lot to make corrections.

Start small with notes that are side by side (conjunct) before expecting her to find notes that skip around or pitch randomly. She needs experience at how to use her voice and singing children's songs for fun is one of the best ways to explore vocally and freely.

These kids who sound really "off" or people think they are "tone deaf" are jumping the gun in saying that about the kid.

Four and a half is young to get locked up on this as an issue.

Look at and listen to "Kermit the Frog" sing. Or "Miss Piggy". Have a little fun with voice projection. Voice as private study is usually started when girls are older teens. There are singing groups for kids but voices are not mature until much later. Check the credentials of anyone leading chorus for small children as much damage can be done very quickly to the vocal chords through unskilled singing. This is a situation when the human IS the instrument. Proceed cautiously in not over using or abusing the voice in speech or in singing.

Give your gal the benefit of the doubt she may surprise you.

Betty Patnude

Good advice from everybody. I'm definitely going to be singing with my daughter a lot. I'm glad to hear that it's too early to tell, and there is hope. I'm not thinking she will be a singer. I was only looking to her singing as indications of being able to hear the right pitches.

I do know Boom-Boom Went the Little Green Frog One Day. I wonder if it's the same song.

Ann in Kentucky, did you ever get responses from your other students whether or not they want to hear your singing?

One more thing...

If my daughter grows up and starts reading this discussion thread, we have to delete this thread right away.

"Be-- cause-- we----
All know frogs go
(rasberry) la di da di da
(rasberry) la di da di da
(rasberry) la di da di da"

[waving arms during la di da di da]

I wonder if we are all thinking of (more or less) the same song. I love it

BTW movement is not just about fun. If they have regular experience of moving their bodies with the music, they are more likely to have good rhythm when they start lessons.

And if you ask teachers here, students with irregular and unpredictable rhythm often have teachers tearing their hair out! So march about the room, stomp, wiggle, wave the arms, slap the thighs, and turn kitchen utensils into drums

MomofBeginners,
My other students just listen or sing along with me as I ask. And we both enjoy the process. Just a couple who find it irritating.

Yes, that's the song I know.

MomOfBeginners,

Your question about what other students reactions are caused me to really look at this. One child from age 5 said "Don't sing" and he refused to sing. He has progressed well, and we did no singing. The 6 year old girl is bright and a bit full of herself...and rude in minor ways. So my estimation is that one child doesn't like singing period, and the other child's philosophy is "It's all about ME, and I'm not going to listen to YOU". So I'm no longer feeling self conscious about my voice.