I decided to post my question in this forum for I wish to get teachers' opinions/suggestions.

First - I would LOVE to take lessons again, but at this point in time my finances will not allow it. So its independent/self study or nothing. I decided on independent study as I can't keep my hands of the keyboard! And I don't see the point of allowing my instrument to collect dust - such a waste that is!

I find, when trying to go it alone, there are two major difficulties: difficulty one is trying find an organized, structured system of study that is goal oriented and thus allows for technical advancement in a way that makes sense. (I am a big, big 'fan' of the study of theory - but it needs to be organized and not some hap-hazard muddle).

The second problem is recognizing one's mistakes and correcting them. Somebody's elses trained ears would be a much better solution, but NO ONE here has ever studied music save me. So there is no one around in my household that can help.

I finally have the time to devote to study and practice but alas no money! But the frustration of waiting until opportunity strikes has finally gotten to me!


Problem one is no doubt easier to solve than problem two.

Any suggestions?


To give you some background - I studied privately for three years. I have been away from the piano for a long, long time and now that I have the time, I want to do my best do do this right (well, as right as one can when one studies without a qualified instructor).

Suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

TIA!!!

Dancin Digits, you've had 80 views of your question, without a post. I'm guessing you might get more suggestions over on the AB forum. The teachers here (understandably) would more likely urge you to pursue formal lessons than have advice on self-learning programs.

What kind of music do you want to play? Somewhere in the archives there are links to collections of classical music, grouped by difficulty level. That may be one way to start. There are method series for adults, but I don't know how far they go, and with three years under your belt they may not be advanced enough for you.

Maybe take a theory class at a nearby college or community college?

Good luck!

My view on this is that you should
forget about theory, and worrying
about "doing it correctly," and instead
start improvising, right now, not
after you have gotten the "theory"
that will enable you to improvise
"correctly." That is, sit down
at the piano and play purely by
ear, with no concern for theory,
or whether you are doing it "right."
You play whatever comes to your
fingers, which will of course be
influenced by your previous
experience on the piano and your
individual musical preferences.

Classically-trained players often
have great hesitation about doing
this, since they are so used to
playing note-perfect from a score.
The idea of playing purely by ear,
with no rules or structure, is
is so alien to them that they
just cannot bring themselves to
do it for fear they will be doing
it "wrong." But there is no right
or wrong when you improvise, no
rules, no required structure. Anything
goes. You're creating your own
orignal music, music that no one
else has every played before--
something that you never thought
yourself capable of. This should
come to be the most enjoyable
time you spend on the piano, free
at last from the restriction of
a score. This is how you really
learn about the instrument and what
you can do on it, and about music.
You're training your ear this way,
and music is the art of the ear, not
of the theory textbook.

Of course, when you first try to
improvise like this, the results
might seem to be discouraging:
you might think you're just pounding
mindlessly on the keyboard. But
like anything on the piano, improvisation
takes practice, a lot of it. Over
time, with practice, you'll be
able to know what to press on
the keyboard to get the kind of
sounds that you want. You'll be
playing by ear, and you don't need
to know any theory to do that.

Exactly! My daughter learned the same way, and see how talented she is just after a few months!


url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDdNCPFpeE

Dancin' digits, one way to get feedback is by recording yourself and posting in the recordings section or on the piano bar threads here. Also, just hearing your own playing on a recording can help you in noticing your own mistakes.

As for theory and goals, I think it will depend on what kind of music you want to play and what your goals are in coming back to piano.

I don't have a teacher, but I have found ways to make progress so that I feel at present that I don't need one. I am mostly interested in jazz and pop music. One thing I find incredibly useful is to learn a song using a lead sheet (chords plus melody) and then play the song in all 12 (major or minor) keys. This helps me really internalize the theory of the song rather than just memorizing the motions in one key.

I find that if I learn a song in one key I can play in 100 times and yet never develop the kind of understanding I get by going through all the keys.

I do the same with music that I have learned from normal sheet music, including some classical pieces.

I'm not sure if that's the kind of thing you mean by goals and structure and theory. For me that is my main structure in practicing. It takes up very much time but is very rewarding, in my experience.

Of course, for this to work, you need to know the basics, at some level, of theory. The main way in which one is able to transpose is by sorting all the parts of a song into their relative chord structures. By learning the song in relative terms, it's possible to play it in any key.

MOB - that is priceless!! thank you
Many will have noticed that I recommend singing while playing to develop profoundly musical playing. What a great example of this.

You so made my day

DancinDigits
Monica's advice is great. I am simply not an expert at going the journey alone. I am very good at making excellent use of very infrequent lessons, but that's not your situation.

Motivation, ideas for pieces, feedback via video can all be found on the ABF.

As far as a coherent program to follow, the only thing I can think of is to take yourself through a syllabus, including the theory and aural. Have a home concert for your "exam set" when it is ready, but book a date a bit in advance for the great experience of project management and being ready just at the right time.

Mix study for "exam" set up with other projects for variety, different styles, improv and experimentation.

Don't only study pieces at the very edge of your abilities as I believe this can slow progress overall.

Take any opportunity to get some feedback or tips from a live pianist should you know any. You could invite a pianist friend to your exam-concert.

Make sure there is some JSBach and some early classical music in you program.

Well I hope that gets you started. You can thank MOB's crazy video for getting me to post

Hey, MOB just noticed that at the end of the video your daughter suddenly plays with her singing, so perhaps

is true!
Big breakthrough after one minute of playing

yeah and I also noticed the subtle elbowing of younger sibling out of the way, priceless

MomofBeginners... I can see that video coming out at a 21st birthday or two. Super gorgeous

Made my day - thanks. A perfect response to the useful advice of no theory/no lessons/no plan.

i respectfully would like to disagree and say that 'theory' is incredibly helpful for understanding the structure of music and gives one the tools to play by ear. Alfred's Adult All-in-One book perhaps is too simple for you. Still, I would go through it and pay close attention to the chords and attempt to learn scales and the chords most used in the keys of G, C, D, E, and F... Theory is succintly and simply explained.

You might try songbooks with guitar chords written in.. play the melody and accompany yourself with the chords... supplementing sightreading.

One way to recognize mistakes is to listen to the music before you learn it. I put recordings of the music I learn on my ipod and am totally familiar with a piece before I ever start it. You know instantly if you hit a wrong note. You can listen on you tube as well.

Monica stated: "Dancin Digits, you've had 80 views of your question, without a post. I'm guessing you might get more suggestions over on the AB forum. The teachers here (understandably) would more likely urge you to pursue formal lessons than have advice on self-learning programs."

Welcome to Piano World Forum, Dancin Digits! I hope you will give us some time to respond. I'm just seeing your post for the first time, and if it weren't a very busy Monday morning for me, I would love to respond to your postings at another time. I think teachers were taking a day off yesterday from the forums and perhaps there will be more response soon. Perhaps some of those 80 people who read your post are like me, thinking of what they would like to say to you. Don't give up on us!

(Removed)

Yes, Dancing Digets should put her post on AB too as there will be lots of information and support for her there by people who do it.

Betty Patnude

I have not had much experience with self-taught students. One of my college friends is a self-taught pianist who taught himself to play late-intermediate to advanced repertoire!! However, after one look at his hands, I realized he had done more damage than good to himself because he had no concept of fingering. None. It was the most illogical fingering, lots of 5-5 jumps and 1-1 jumps when music was supposed to be legato. And since he trained himself on an unweighted keyboard, he was basically slamming his way through Chopin. Ouch. Clearly, I didn't have the ability to fix that train wreck.

If your goal is to play classical music _well_, then I'd highly encourage you to find a good teacher ASAP. There are some aspects of piano-playing, such as fingering and tone production, that only a well-qualified teacher can help you with.

Yes, yes, yes, it can be very difficult, if not impossible, to fix years of the kind of stuff mentioned above. To me it feels like untangling strands of Christmas lights all knotted together.
Digits, could you take some pay as you go lessons? Maybe one per month? Or at least meet with a teacher for a consultation as to how to proceed? I think it's tricky to give advice here when the only thing we know is that you were taking lessons for three years some time ago. There are some good adult method books you could use, depending on what level you are.
Regarding theory, you could take a look at the Julie MacIntosh Johnson keyboard theory work books (levels 1-10) and get an idea of where you are with theory.

huh?!? I didn't see anything in Monica's post that looked like a "dig." As I read posts, most teachers *do* encourage people to get lessons, as do many of the posters in the ABF who are *not* teachers. That's not a "dig." What also appears to me be true is that there are many posters in the ABF who are not taking lessons and they have many suggestions. Some of the teachers who post there also have suggestions for those who can't afford lessons. But, from a percentage standpoint, there appear to me to be more posters in the ABF who will have suggestions for self-teachers than there are in the teachers forum.

If I recall, also, you are one of the teachers who is quite adamant that adult learners should take lessons and they are doing themselves no favors by not doing so, and have been from your first posts in the ABF a couple of years ago. If anyone is interested they could look it up, as Casey Stengel or Yogi Berra would say Yes, you have given a lot of advice to adult beginners. You sometimes complain about the time it takes for you to do so So it seems ironic, to me, that *you* would be objecting to someone saying "understandably, teachers are likely to suggest lessons."

Sorry, but as usual, I find your post, um, confusing at best.

Cathy

Gosh. I didn't see it as a "dig" against me for not answering! I'm not an adult beginner, but I sometimes post on the AB forum - and I never get the sarcastic "thank you madame ambassador" treatment there. Monica was answering a question from a self-taught adult to a self-taught adult. I didn't take it as a "dig" at any or all of the teachers here.

Thanks, Cathy and currawong. Of course I hope DancinDigits viewed my post as encouraging, as that was my (only) intent.

MomOfBeginners, what a lucky mom you are. That was an absolutely priceless video. And I was quite impressed by how steadily your older daughter was able to keep the rhythm... there must really be something to this self-teaching business....

Canonie - That certainly was good advice to give: Sing with the piano. In all seriousness, I did use that advice from you on my kids, and it has worked well.

LimeFriday - Glad to make your day.

On self-teaching: I'm not a teacher, and I'm not a self-taught adult, so I'm in no position to offer advice. As MonicaK says, the Piano Teacher's Forum probably isn't well attended by those with a lot of experience in self-teaching.

I absolutely loved the vid, MomofBeginners! I do hope you have the sheet music, and will consider sharing it, as I would love to give that piece a try!



Gyro - I am the first to agree that ear training is essential. And so is creativity. After all, music is an auditory art. I do not believe in being so rigidly confined by rules and structure and the proper way of doing things that the beauty of the music is sacrificed simply for the sake of being technically 'correct'. But I do know that music theory can open many doors and provide the pianist with a tool in their tool box that they would not have if they failed to study theory. I also know that technique is a tool that allows you to achieve what you wish.

I have heard that some believe that theory interfers with creativity (not saying that this is how you feel, I am just making a point). I think just the opposite is true. You can pull it out of your tool box and use it when you wish, or leave it in there in favor of a unique approach. But you can't use theory if its not there - that is to say, if you don't have it you can't use it because you never studied it.

I know that the study of scales and chords, and the analyzing of any piece that I play regarding scales and chords (and chord progressions) aids me a great deal in memorizing a piece. It also aids me a great deal in taking an educated guess as to what comes next should I forget a note or two.

I see theory as the difference between simply playing the notes on the score, and understanding what you are doing. Well that's my take on it - thought I would just offer up an explanation as to why I consider theory so important.

Monica - no worries. I did see your post as you intended it to be - encouraging someone who is going it alone. Thanks for your response!

ANZpiano - again, I would love to take lessons. But alas the pocketbook is only so deep! Bills must be paid first. (Blah!!). I have studied fingering. Now I am not about to say that I know all there is to know on the subject - indeed I don't! But after three years of study, I am not a two finger piano player either. My lessons have stuck well with me, and I do my best to stay true to them. Perhaps someday I will be lucky enough to afford lessons.

Barb860 - I live in a rural area, so my selection of teachers is limited. The ones that I have found (who I believe are qualified to teach and are not just some joe-smoe who has hung his sign out) do the time slot/tuition/pay one month in advance type thing. I understand their needs, but sadly, their needs and mine don't gel too well. But thanks for the suggestion - I will continue to keep it in mind as I search for instruction.

Betty - I saw your complete response before it was edited. I respect everyone's right to respond to a thread, or not to. I do not necessarily asign a meaning to a lack of responses, or to responses that are slow in coming. It's OK, in my book.

I do think that Monica was actually trying to explain the lack of responses in such a way as to: 1. soothe any hurt feelings there *may* have been on my part (which there were not - but I do appreciate Monica's efforts , if that is what she was indeed doing) and 2. I believe she was actually defending the lack of responses of teachers. After all, instruction is the means by which teachers earn their living. They have bills to pay like every one else. It is understandable if a teacher selects not to respond, as they would not want to undermine their ability to earn an income. Lessons are their bread and butter. It is also their right to choose not to engage in free instruction. And perhaps they have nothing to suggest as self-taught students, by their very nature, are not generally a group that teachers have a good deal of contact with.

Regardless, I have not given up on any one here. So far, I have found this a friendly place. Tis good!

Anyrate - this is turning into a book!

Again - thanks kindly for the suggestions. They are truly appreciated and I will keep them in mind.

Whatever the future brings for me, I am determined to 'be all that I can be' - whatever that turns out to be. Money will not keep me away from the keyboard. So, cover your ears with your hands if you must when I play! But play I will!!

Loads of great pianists in the history of the piano were self-taught, or at least did not undertake the kind of lessons we think of these days. But none of them were in the field of classical music. So maybe it might be valuable to know, dancindigits, what your goals are in this enterprise of self-tuition? Do you seek to improvise more proficiently? Are you keen to master Beethoven Sonatas? Are you hoping to better accompany the choir at church? Or a karaoke session with friends at home?

As a teacher I would find it easier to make recommendations if I knew what your real goals were.

Dancin Digits - what have you played? What things have you learned?

Yes, that is exactly what I was hoping to communicate, and I'm happy that you understood my post as I had intended. When a thread started by somebody goes by for hours without a comment, on any of the forums I hang out on, I usually try to say *something*, especially if the poster is a relative newcomer to PW.

It sounds to me like you have a good basis for going it alone, especially as you also appear to have a firm understanding of the challenges involved and an appreciation for good technique and theory. Maybe you won't be able to progress as fast as you could have with formal lessons, but I'm willing to bet you'll continue to make progress--and have fun while doing it, and that's the important thing.

p.s. Check out the AB forum recitals. The deadline for the next one is Feb. 14. Participating in them and making the commitment to have a new piece polished and recorded every 3 months is a great self-motivator for many of us.

Hello again!

What have I studied? Well - scales, both major and minor, chords (as in chord structure/chord progression), fingering patterns, dynamics, sight reading techniques, time signatures/rhythm/counting, proper hand position and use of the hands, proper body position, musical terms, phrasing and of course I did some of the famous Hanon 60 exercises (about 1/3 of the way thru, if memory serves).

What have I played? All sorts of music from lead sheets (pieces from movies, popular/easy listening music, musicals/broadway tunes), and some classical music - Fur Elise (yes, I played that along with the rest of the world!), First Movement from Beethoven's Moonlight, some Clementi and some Lichner (sp??), a Strauss waltz here and there.

For a very short period of time, as a young adult, I tried to return to lessons. I even went back to my former teacher. He asked me to buy a specific book - a collection of Chopin Mazurkas (original scores - not the simplified arrangements for easy piano). He felt that I was ready to study them. However, shortly after I started lessons, circumstance forced my withdrawal from them.

What would I like to play? Well, my musical taste tends to be a bit all over the place. I enjoy certain Scott Joplin pieces - Gladiolus, Bethena, Solace.

Love Michael Nymans' Big My Secret/The Promise, have just gotten into some of the music of David Lanz, some movie soundtracks are pretty neat like the The Curse of the Black Pearl. Love the works of John Williams. For those old enough to remember them, I enjoyed Ferrante and Teicher's works, esp. their interpretation of This Land is Mine (Theme from Exodus), love the music to The Phantom of the Opera. I am a big fan of Andrew Loyd Webber . (Hope I am spelling these names right!)

And yes, I am also a lover of classical music - esp. from the Romantic period.

Will I ever be able to play a Beethoven concerto or a Chopin impromtu? I have no idea. Maybe the future will be kind to me and at some piont I will be able to take lessons again.

I had my piano tuned, regulated and voiced recently - we are both ready to go!

Thanks so much for everyone's interest in helping me!!

Oh - forgot to add - I pretty much play strictly for my own personal enjoyment. Yes, sometimes family members make requests - but I am the type that will not play anything for another person that I do not feel has been properly mastered and is in presentable condition.

Maybe someday I will be lucky enough to hook up with some other musicians and we can meet every so often and play for our own enjoyment.

I don't have any professional goals but hey - one just never knows where the future will take you and what opportunities will come knocking. I am certainly not adverse to playing for others. But right now,, I really need to review and recapture my former skills. I am rather displeased with my playing at this point in time. Much work to do!

So, the future is always open for possibilites. But right now I am a living room pianist. And the furniture never has a complaint about my music! (I'm the one who is doing the complaining!!)

I was fortunate at one point to have a very professional teacher who was up to the challenge. He said it was like being presented with someone's knitting kit that had just been thrown into the basket willy nilly and then the cat got into it. Lots of patience from both student and teacher required for the subsequent unknarling. Many patterns that I thought were "done" had to be cut out and thrown away. The problem with bad habits is that your body never really can un-learn anything, so all the ineffective technique is always still there underneath the surface waiting to rear its ugly head, say in a moment of stress in performance or when not paying attention when practicing, etc.

It is much more productive to go slow and learn right than to go on your own and wind up having to spend twice as much time later trying to unlearn and learn at the same time.

For children in many countries there are affordable group lessons available at school that allow kids who might not be able to afford private lessons still have access to someone who can observe them, give feedback and help them prevent learning bad habits. I know of at least one adult that "shares" a teacher with another adult. They go to lessons together, work on a simple duet repertoire and get lessons in both technique and playing together for "half" price....

DancinDigits, it sounds to me like your goal is have technical proficiency and to be able to play known solo repertoire, rather than to be the accompanist for the church choir or someone who improvises for emotional release.

Without tuition/advice/review it will be hard to progress.

You'll enjoy the journey, I'm sure, but it's like trying to learn French without ever speaking to someone who speaks French.

Good luck with your quest......

good luck indeed.

i realize that what I suggested earlier may be too easy for you.. so

i studied alone all my life and had the luxury of a couple years of lessons with an excellent pianist. I took several years of piano or organ lessons as a kid. I play for churches a lot. still.. I am a livingroom pianist as well.

There is a book (very expensive really) by Charles Cooke - 'Playing the Piano for Pleasure'. If you can find a copy, I suggest reading it. His suggestions are excellent. you can get a copy on ebay now for 22 plus shipping. He tells you how to practice and has many classical suggestions and what you can from them. This book is hard to find, and the is an excellent price (altho i bought mine for dollar in an oldbook store)

Playing the piano for pleasure

I would suggest learning the prelude in D #5 in the Well Tempered Clavier I. It's wonderfully helpful.. also the prelude in C - #1. You can find just about any piece of classical music at IMSLP - the Internation Music Score Library project

All the pieces there are in the public domain and free. I would then listen to those on you tube.

I'd acquire a cd library and listen listen listen.

I always chose to learn helpful pieces.. exercises, etudes, Bach's teaching preludes.

Perhaps some of the teachers would have suggestions.]

I'd also suggest taking some of the skills you've learned from scales and arpeggios and learn how to improvise. I keep a list of accompaniment patterns.. copy them, put them in a book.

I read everything I can on technique and watch excellent pianists on you tube.

Ideally, actually taking lessons is the most desirable choice, but if there are no teachers, there are no teachers. Perhaps there are master classes or workshops in your general vicinity.

I retrospect I wish I had taken lessons earlier but say 'la V'.

The ABF and the Pianists Corner are both excellent sources of reading material. I gravitate toward the Pianists Corner because I am a bit more classical. there is a lot of camaraderie on the ABF.

Thanks so much for your suggestions Apple - they sound good. . . so good that I printed out your post so that I have it as a handy reference.

I respect and appreciate the benefits that lessons provide a student. I also enjoy lessons - they are my time to 'zone out' from the real world. I just can't afford the tuition system. I can only scrape together money for an occassional piano consultation from time to time, but the qualified instructors in my area are not interested in providing such a service. Their calendars are filled with tuition paying students, so they have their pick of the litter. Some instructors even have waiting lists as their student enrollment is to the max.

But I continue to search, and everytime I see my piano tech I question him - he makes the rounds and so has his ear to the ground for me. Tis good that!

I understand the instructors' financial needs and the reasons why they want to run their studio the way that they do. It is their right to run their studios as they see fit. I don't argue with them - I generally just go away when I discover that their studio policies will not answer my needs.. But from a personal position the over-all results is that I am pretty much out the door.

Sigh. . . .

Life is what it is. I have been away from the piano for too long in fear - fear that if I go it alone, I will pick up bad habits. I don't want to be the kind of musician that destroys a piece while my listeners stand there with plastered smiles on their faces, being too polite to show the horror or amusement they are feeling.

But I also have had enough of my silent piano sitting in the corner collecting dust. I've waited and waited for opportunity to finally present itself and it has yet to come.

So for better or for worse, I will forge ahead. If all that I am destined to be is a mediocre living room pianist, so be it. The furniture has no choice but to listen anyway. And I love music too much to keep my distance from it any further.

I have my determination to do the very best that I can - I also have the encouragement that my former teacher gave me as he often stated that he believed me to have a healthy talent.

I hope you do not take this post as an angry one - I am not. I truly appreciate the interest and help many posters have attempted to give me. It has helped to soothe my disappointment and frustration.

I just wish to explain my position and the 'whys' to it. I wanted posters to understand that I am not one of those silly people who think that if I can play Mary Had a Little Lamb by ear today that I will be the next Beethoven by next year.

I truly admire talent, hard work, and technical skill/knowledge. But I have made up my mind not to allow disadvantage to control me and there's no changing my mind. I can be a stubborn you-know-what when I make up my mind to be.

Thanks ever so much again!!

Your post is one of the most poignant arguments in favor of self-teaching that I've seen. One of the reasons I am such a pain in the butt so persistent in advocating for multiple routes to piano, including self-teaching, is because I am truly distressed by any sentiment that a student is better off not playing the piano at all than self-teaching... a sentiment that horrifies me, especially for the vast majority of adult students for whom music is an important source of gratification, not an intended career.

As I said earlier, DancinDigits, I think you are an ideal candidate for forging ahead alone: You have a foundation in lessons and an appreciation for--and ability to--distinguish between good and bad technique. I hope you are successful one day in finding a teacher who is able to accommodate the flexibility you need. But until then, I hope very much that you will continue to play the piano and experience the joy of creating music with your hands, whether it is technically flawless--or not.

Well, it will all go along a lot smoother without the self-judgement as well. A lot of people identify who they are by what they can (or can't do.) Big trap here. REALLY BIG TRAP! To avoid it, focus on and enjoy the process of playing the piano and let go of the need to control the outcome. Do that, and your musical life will grow in leaps and bounds.

+1 DancinDigits. When I started back to piano after 30+ years (I had 3 years of lessons in my early teens) I, too, was in one of my "poor" periods. But it's also true that the kind of piano I started playing, which was the oom-pah in a dance band, is learned from - other dance pianists, and being a dancer for years, and musicians who play other instruments. I was playing on a "piano" that had to be 30 years old - an original Wurlitzer electric. It didn't sound much like a piano, and the keyboard was short, but it worked. I had it for 8 years before I bought a fixer-upper in a thrift store. So I'm kind of the poster girl for going it on your own that sometimes gets bad press

By the time I got back into playing some solo piano, well, I have neither the time nor the inclination for formal lessons. But I play a couple of dozen gigs a year one way or the other, and me, my audience, and my band mates are having a great time.

We all do what we can, and being able to make music, whatever the circumstances, is a gift.

Cathy

i don't know that self teaching is the opposite of having a teacher.... one learns in many ways

sometimes an argument can like, fade.. or just not be an argument anymore.

(boy i miss the old smileys)