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curry
Keep the 24k gold and pass the chocolate. I treated myself an hour ago to a couple of truffles from Teuscher . I walked back and forth to Madison Ave to burn the extra calories.. But they were worth it. The Swiss don't build pianos ( I often wondered why... too much democracy may be??.. no patrons supporting music??) but they sure know chocolate...
Claudia
sorry for the deviation. Congratulations on your piano. I must say I came close to going for a stunning 170 until I met a Steingraeber. I fell for him, heels first. Regardless, you love the piano and you got it.. Enough said!

curry c-n:
Sometimes one may be lost to the taste of the other.

Hi there, hope you are well. Yesterday evening I had the pleasure of getting myself outside of most of a bar of Lindt Excellence Ecuador 75%... the remaining sliver of which I consumed with coffee this morning . Of course we are a bit spoiled over here when it comes to Things Chocolatey, even at the local supermarket. This was the first time I'd tried the Ecuador; it's usually a few bars of Madagascar 70% that gets thrown in the shopping basket each week.

Michael B.

The prices quoted in this thread are anomalous. They are lower than current wholesale. Unless the dealer is planning on not stocking the item anymore, it is pretty crazy to sell for less than what you can replace it for. In fact it is a stupid move no matter how you look at it. Even if they were just trying to wholesale it out, the responsible thing would have been to wholesale it to another dealer. Our store would have paid that for the 170. Good for you Claudia and shame on the dealer for smudging the perceived market value to those who skimmed the thread. The only thing that I can think of is that they are going to pocket the $ and not pay the bank. Just conjecture though. Who knows. Did they look as though they had a drug problem? No doubt however, this dealer will probably not be selling any more Bosendorfers.

Good for you though. You really got a superb instrument.

Kieran - did you just skim the thread? Wakey wakey - don't criticize others for what you have evidently just done yourself.

The dealer has switched to Steinway only.
Hence is not replacing his Boesendorfer inventory.
The pianos are getting on for a decade old.
Wholesale at that time would have been below the sale price now. He will not care what cirrent wholesale is.
Maybe the dealer does not want to sell to a competitor - that is often the nature of competition in business you know.
There is no justification whatsoever for assuming that the dealer even has a bank loan let alone will default on it.
The drug reference is just plain silly and discredits you.

Adrian

PS, In case it vanishes, this is what you said:

"The prices quoted in this thread are anomalous. They are lower than current wholesale. Unless the dealer is planning on not stocking the item anymore, it is pretty crazy to sell for less than what you can replace it for. In fact it is a stupid move no matter how you look at it. Even if they were just trying to wholesale it out, the responsible thing would have been to wholesale it to another dealer. Our store would have paid that for the 170. Good for you Claudia and shame on the dealer for smudging the perceived market value to those who skimmed the thread. The only thing that I can think of is that they are going to pocket the $ and not pay the bank. Just conjecture though. Who knows. Did they look as though they had a drug problem? No doubt however, this dealer will probably not be selling any more Bosendorfers."

Michael B,
However the misplaced analogy above merely serves to spread misinformation on a forum which is consulted by people looking for reliable and correct information, and it is also in that spirit that I felt the need to set the record straight
I absolutely agree with you on the above statement. Thankyou for coming to the defense of owners of the inferior CS series. The only differences are in the single strings vs. looped strings, and a 40 hr polish vs an 8 hr job over the cast iron plate, none of which affects the sound and action of the piano. Bosendorfer do not use inferior material for the CS series. They only produce less than 250 pianos including uprights, and it has a staff of only 250. they are not interested in messing around with a less than perfect job.

Claudia, you were trying out the CS214, which is produced much later to produce a more familiar sound, I tried several 214 both CS and traditional and there were only 2 200s on the floor through out an area of 50 miles. I came to the conclusion that these are 2 different pianos with their own characteristics of sound. the CS 200 has a darker tone that I like better. Both my tech and my teacher, who is a seasoned performer liked the CS214, and it is meant for a small concert hall. I have tried my best to prefer it, but I settled for the smaller 200, The choice is a very personal one. At the time, there was a 214(glossy) on the floor that the dealership wanted get it off the floor, but I still like the sound and action of this CS200. It is so ready, although I can easily live with any of these pianos-no complaint what soever! I even checked the facts by calling Vienna. Enjoy your piano.

The subject of the difference between our regular line and the CS lines comes up every so often. To repeat, the only differences between the regular line and the CS line you see on dealers floors are the following:

1. looped instead of single stringing
2. exterior and plate finish.
3. possibly less time in final voicing.

Point 3 is why you may find a bigger variance in the CS series than the regular line.

Remember, the CS is intended as an institutional piano, where it's going to get kicked around and played for hours every day. The thinking is to cut cost everywhere we can while making sure it is still a Bosendorfer. The production spec calls for slightly less time in final voicing. Since it's going to get the tar beat out of it how long will that final factory tone last anyway?

The reality is that the factory has a very difficult time letting a piano out that is not perfect which is why some sound more even and more like the regular line.

I assure you all the structural components are EXACTLY the same as the regular line with the exception of the 3 points above. This includes the quality of the spruce in the rim and soundboard, the hammers, EVERYTHING.

Claudia,

Congratulations on making the deal of the year. You even aroused the ire of a current Bosie dealer. I'm sure you'll be very happy with you B170. Play and enjoy!!

However, I did want to comment about one of your comments.

You are aware that Larry Fine rates the Shigerus in group 1C, the same as New York Steinway and higher than Yamaha S series. Having played some Shigerus (SK2, SK3 and SK7) I'll simply say that their sound does not appeal to me, I like a piano with a more robust sound. I would call the Shigeru sound highly refined, but I've played smaller pianos that could achieve a more dramatic sound (my preference is for an instrument that can jump out of the box). I will say that within that refined sound paradigm I've not played an instrument that was as supremely controllable with an action that was both fast and light. I could do things on the SK7 that I simply couldn't do on any other instrument.

I mention this only because I know someone personally who did something similar. She bought a Steinway M (an instrument I know well and I feel she could have done better) after visiting a local Yamaha dealer and made the decision that she didn't want to bother with Kawai. In my market that was unfortunate because at the time our Yamaha dealer didn't bother prepping and tuning their instruments, whereas the Kawai dealer was particularly fastidious about this. My point is there are many factors that can affect a purchase decision. I know that Kawai pianos and especially Shigeru Kawais can be world class instruments and would have been worthy of at least taking a look. They are certainly not Yamahas with a different name on the fallboard.

Do enjoy your Bosie and there's no need to feel bad about your choice. Your situation reminded me of something a little closer to home and I felt compelled to comment, if only to disabuse other readers of the notion that Yamaha and Kawai are two peas in a pod. The Shigerus really are something special, especially if their sound appeals to you.

Dear fellow musicians and piano lovers, as well as dear technicians, tuners and piano dealers / sellers:

First of all, thank you so much for your best wishes and congratulations on my new baby.

Regards to my so SO BAD WRITTEN comments comparing Bosendorfers series CS and regular ones, please permit me apologize and clarify:

I am Argentinian, so my native language is spanish. I have a few troubles with the english grammar, and my vocabulary is not very rich as I would desire. So in order to express something, many times I try to use the shorter way I can find, and still I can't get the right words. And I think this is what happened with what I commented here.

So here goes my clarification.
I have been wisely advised about the size and how it matters in the piano world.
I knew and experienced myself (specially with New York Steinways) the difference between S, M, O and A lengths. When I tried at the New York Steinways dealer these models I eliminated from my wish-list models S, M and even O. I tried at least 4 pianos of each model, and for my PERSONAL TASTE they are NOT worth the price they ask (S, M or O, New York Steinways talking). So I had to think of an A or bigger (which price is not worth either, FOR ME, for my personal judgement). Then I focused myself on As... but the touch and sound didn't fulfill my soul, ears and fingers desires.
It is true that IN GENERAL, the bigger the better (although FOR ME this is not necessarily valid for all the brands, specially if I compare the same size of different brands. I experienced that Bosendorfers are more powerful. This is what I humbly think, and it is valid only FOR ME).
The B170 (5'8") sounded more harmonic and richer than any New York Steinway O (5'10"). But I tried in Argentina a 1958 Hamburg Steinway M, smaller, that sounded richer and deeper than any New York Steinway O and even A that I tried in the USA.

Now let's go to my unfortunate comments about the Bosendorfer B170 I bought and the 214CS I tried.
Remember I said:
"Of course I tried the 214 CS, and I didn't like it. I would preferred to pay more for the 170 (it is NOT a CS serie) than for this huge 214 CS."
But please pay attention that I was talking about THIS CS214, not all the CS214s, because truth be told, that is the only CS214 I have tried in my life.
I didn't like the touch and the sound of THAT ONE CS214 I tried. I asked the seller why is that some keys would make an unwanted repetition, he was inspecting... he said that it was necessary a very good regulation. I saw a few scratches on the finish... I learned it was played for concerts in the showroom... I don't know for how many concerts... who knows...
Then I tried this B170 PE, that doesn't need anything except the first tuning at home: exceptionally well regulated... etc. etc... I fell in love with THIS B170, and I didn't like THIS CS214.
Besides, I don't have a room with the acoustics to truly enjoy the power of any CS214, good or bad regulated...
What I recognize it is very bad worded from my part is when I wrote: "I really think that there is a difference between the CS series and the other (better) ones".
Fortunately I never said that I was informed for sure that CS series are worst... I said "I think..."
And yes, it is bad to make generalizations and assumptions, specially if beginners or not informed pianists read these forums, because it creates mistakes.

Anyway, selecting a piano is a SO PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE decision. The one you like... I despise... the one I choose you find horrible...
That is why I would never buy a piano that I didn't try.
And also that is why I have never asked in this forum: "What piano do you think has the best sound or action?" I just asked help to know if the price for this Bosendorfer was right or not. And when I talked about the CS214 was just to answer the comments or questions on why I focused myself on the B170 instead of the CS214 which price was also unbelievable.

Besides, as Turandot said here:
"there is a minority position that individual manufacturers' best achievements are not necessarily their longest ones."
Again, I cannot confirm if this is valid for CSs and regular series about Bosendorfer.
But in my poor, uninformed and so ignorant opinion this is valid for these particular two pianos I tried. And again, it is valid just for me.

Regards the comments that because I chose the B170 (and not the CS214) it was possible to assume that I prefer the cosmetic, exterior aspect over the sound that the pianos produce (the look over the quality)... Let me emphasize something I mentioned before: Just beside the B170 polished ebony I bought, the dealer has a beautiful, impressive model "YATCH" (what a good looking, extraordinarily handsome piano!!!) for only $ 4,500 more (in the market this model is easily $ 10,000 more at least).
I (fortunately) have that extra amount of money... but I liked more the touch and sound of the less beautiful one. And the more I tried both (the black and the Yatch, both 170), the more I liked the black one... the cheaper one, the uglier one!!!
So... I am absolutely sure I chose quality over good looking. And I am particular proud I did it. Therefore now I am married to the ugly and small boy... but he was who seduced me with his qualities (against all odds!!!) and will make my life happier than the handsome good looking boy or the bigger, robust, impressive-sized man.

I hope that I clarified this issue.

Best regards to everybody, again.
Claudia

Adrian,

I did indeed skim the thread-my fault. I was obviously to busy to properly post. My intention was to call attention to how ridiculous a price it is. Adrian, I do not do this for recreation only, I do it for a living and have done so for about a decade. I do love pianos and for the most part the contribution the enthusiastic people here make to the industry. It was indeed a mistake to skim the thread but I do my best to keep all the balls in the air and don't always have a lot of time to devote to this kind of thing. I all of a sudden had a store full of customers and had to be quick.

Good for Claudia, and I mean that.

The piano did seem to find a good home though. She sure went above and beyond doing her research.

I would love to meet you some time to see what you are like in person. Until then, keep up the enthusiasm!

Fair enough Kieran. I have heard good things about Jim Laabs pianos so I was surprised at such a tetchy post. Clearly an aberration. Claudia got a good deal.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

Claudia, You are to be congratulated !! Best wishes with your new piano!! We want to see pics when it arrives!

I've visited the store myself and found it full of pianos of every sort including a Bosey 225, a model that always gets me going. I believe I spoke to Kieran and they were quite tolerant of my questions and average playing ability. Certainly worth a visit! But too cold to visit often. Sorry MN, but Georgia is much warmer and even GA is too cold for me.

Again, congratulations Claudia and good luck with the English. I was trying to get a little Spanish going during a recent visit to Costa Rica (now that's warm). My words to you are "Puede hacerlo!"

TLuvva -- You are right about Kieran's grace and tolerance for average (or in my case even sub-average) playing. But I don't think the Bosie being discussed was at Jim Laabs.

By the way, you wouldn't have to wear that silly mask if you breathed a bit more of our refreshing Minnesota air, which currently is at a balmy 10 degrees (15 degrees warmer than it was this morning).

This is all getting silly, and I don't mean tluvva's mask. I assume it's something that he feels he needs to wear when he posts here.

Claudia did business with a Bosendorfer retailer who had his representation terminated around the time [edit: "around the time" should be "well before" / Thanks to Boseric for the correction] that Yamaha took over, although probably not because of that. It's completely up to that retailer how and for what price he wishes to sell his remaining inventory.

Claudia chose a piano from his inventory, not from the Bosendorfer factory. She chose the one she liked the best. Time after time I read here that people should choose the one they love. Isn't that what she did? Now instead of that we get this stuff about how the Bosendorfer 214 is a pro instrument and the implicit inference that the 170 isn't. What does that mean and who cares?


Ninety-nine percent of those who read here would probably exchange their piano for hers in a heartbeat. I know I would.

Claudia chose the piano whose tone she prefers and whose size she considers to be appropriate for her piano room. Considering that some of us regularly post about the importance of comparing showroom acoustics to piano room acoustics and considering also that she auditioned other pianos, I'd say that the lady knows what she's doing.

Is today the day, Claudia?

Do you have your fingers ready?

Do you have your camera ready?

Just a clarification. The dealer in question ended their relationship with Bosendorfer a number of years ago, long before the acquisition by Yamaha.

The final arbiter of what satisfies the buyer is THE BUYER. If Claudia is happy, that is all that matters. It is important to know yourself, your goals, desires and abilities to best determine what your needs in an instrument actually are. Here at PW, we sort of try and impose the collective on the individual and each of us believes in his heart that we (individually) are right. As I just sat playing the last movement of the Schumann Fantasy and I drifted from low D flat octaves to lowest B flat octaves (when the theme re-states in A flat), I realized that the instrument I have is "right" for me. This movement is slow and largely contemplative. There is plenty of time to relish those sonorities.

Of course, I could also relish the sonority of $40K rattling around in my bank account.

JohnP:
If Claudia is happy, that is all that matters. It is important to know yourself, your goals, desires and abilities to best determine what your needs in an instrument actually are.

Indeed. I agree most violently


Here at PW, we sort of try and impose the collective on the individual and each of us believes in his heart that we (individually) are right

Perhaps. However, if you read a little more carefully at what was written above, you will find that the only 'imposition' in this particular case was that the purchaser in question did not to invent 'quality' issues and erroneous analogies with no factual basis, merely to justify and affirm a buying decision.

If someone only has room for or indeed has stated a particular preference for a smaller instrument, then I (and I think most here) would not attempt to persuade him/her otherwise. Suggest that s/he makes the effort to audition other alternatives, yes, but 'impose' I think not.

To be fair to Claudia, she has since apologised (both on and off list) for her misleading comments, although somewhat qualified by saying she meant that particular CS example was of 'lower quality' and that she said 'I think' rather than 'I know' about the CS being essentially of lower quality (cf. Yamaha C versus S series), and not being mother-tongue English. Not very convincing IMO, but of course better than nothing. At least a manufacturer's representative, in the form of BoseEric, has also since stepped in to set the record properly straight for others reading this in the future.

Of course, I could also relish the sonority of $40K rattling around in my bank account.

Life is short and you are dead for a very long time afterwards. And a rich man is just a poor man...with money


-Michael B.

Claudia,

I tried to respond to your PM, but your mailbox is full.