Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1357921 - 01/25/10 05:40 PM AvantGrand action and regulation
rlchram Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 5
So I was seriously thinking about buying an AvantGrand N2. I would love to buy a good acoustic grand and be done with it but that's just not practical for me right now. I got a chance to play the N3 at a nearby piano store and I liked it a lot, I really wanted to love it (and therefore buy it) but something just didn't seem quite right to me.

I spent a few hours going back and forth between the N3 and some decent acoustic grands and eventually decided that the N3 action, as good as it was, felt both stiff and shallow. Those are the two best words I could come up with to describe what I was experiencing. Has anyone else reported anything similar?

I mentioned my observations to the salesman and the technician that were in the store and at first they tried to convince me that I was crazy but after I convinced them that I do actually know what I'm talking about, they actually measured the key dip and agreed that it was a bit shallow. Then they assured me that if I bought one they would be able to regulate the action for me to make it how I want. I know the action on the N3 is supposed to be a real acoustic action but is it wise to let just anyone work on it like that? Has anyone else had their AvantGrand actions customized to suit their particular taste?

There is another N3 in a store a couple hours away from me so I was thinking about taking a little road trip this weekend to see if it feels any different. Thoughts?

Top
(ads 568) Hailun Pianos

#1357961 - 01/25/10 06:18 PM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: rlchram]
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 2604
Ya got me goin' on this one. I just took my key dip block around the store. All of our Yamaha grands have the same key dip measurement and our N3 and N2 are exactly the same. There may be other issues between the N3/N2 touch and others (although nearly all of our players don't notice) but it isn't key dip.
_________________________
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.

Top
#1358046 - 01/25/10 08:34 PM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: Marty Flinn]
rlchram Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 5
Interesting. Thank you for posting your findings - that's good to know.

Quote:
There may be other issues between the N3/N2 touch and others (although nearly all of our players don't notice) but it isn't key dip.


I'm really curious about what other issues some players may have reported. Would you mind elaborating on that? Thanks again!

Top
#1358075 - 01/25/10 09:01 PM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: rlchram]
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 2604
I was only referring to any other action issues that might present what you described. We have shown the N3 and N2 to several dozen players and have not heard what you have described. All have commented on how authentic to a big grand the tone is and none could distinguish any touch differences.
_________________________
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.

Top
#1358135 - 01/25/10 10:21 PM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: Marty Flinn]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
I'm curious, in the first sentence you said that you're thinking about buying an N2, but then you were talking about the issue with the N3 keyboard. Did they not have an N2 there for you to try as well? If they had both, did both feel the same for you (with the problem)?

Top
#1358147 - 01/25/10 10:39 PM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: Marty Flinn]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Marty Flinn
Ya got me goin' on this one. I just took my key dip block around the store. All of our Yamaha grands have the same key dip measurement and our N3 and N2 are exactly the same. There may be other issues between the N3/N2 touch and others (although nearly all of our players don't notice) but it isn't key dip.


Yeah, I agree. I've play both the N3 and N2 and they feel pretty much just like my Yamaha grand piano. I think the Yamaha key dip could be more shallow compare to other makes like Kawai, or Steinway. The AG N3/N2 actually provides the signature Yamaha action, so if you don't like the ordinary Yamaha grand action, you aren't going to like the Avant Grand. I would be careful about regulating the action too much because it may mess with the sensor's ability to optimally sense touch. There are no strings here, so I would think a normal tech isn't going to know how changing the regulation would alter the performance of the thing.
_________________________
Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

Top
#1358207 - 01/26/10 12:09 AM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: Volusiano]
rlchram Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 5
Quote:
Did they not have an N2 there for you to try as well? If they had both, did both feel the same for you (with the problem)?


Unfortunately, the store only had an N3 for a short time. They received it for Yamaha to prep for a concert Frederic Chiu gave last weekend in the area so I rushed over there to try it out when I heard it was on display. It's the only one I could get my hands on so far. It's not my dream piano but I do think it's very good. I was just trying to get a sense of what other people though of the action and if my experience was typical. I need to spend some more time with one to make up my mind but I'm still leaning toward buying one. If I'm going to keep playing digitals for the time being I don't think the current market is offering anything better than the AG. Guess I'll be taking that trip to Albany this weekend to try out another one...


Edited by rlchram (01/26/10 12:10 AM)

Top
#1358216 - 01/26/10 12:17 AM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: 4evrBeginR]
rlchram Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 5
Quote:
I would be careful about regulation the action too much because it may mess with the sensor's ability to optimally sense touch. There are no strings here, so I would think a normal tech isn't going to know how changing the regulation would alter the performance of the thing.


Yeah, that idea made me pretty nervous. I highly doubted that a lot of people (if any) would risk messing with the action on that thing. Seemed a little odd to me - especially on a brand new instrument like that. Of course if anyone has I would be very curious to know how it worked out.

Top
#1358236 - 01/26/10 12:46 AM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: rlchram]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1594
Loc: Toronto
I tried an AG and found it very difficult to get into the experience. It was impressive to play a 'digital' that has the full action of a Yamaha C series acoustic but there was just something missing in the way the action connected with the sound. For the price there are some very good 'real' grands available or the possibility of a really good upright + a really good digital.
I think it may be that I was disappointed because of all the hype I've heard and read about before playing the AG. In the end it just seems, to me, to be a really good digital with good action, good speakers (and speaker placement) that looks good and costs $20,000 -- but not a convincing substitute for the real thing in my opinion. I do however think it's exciting that Yamaha is developing and experimenting with the concept of a hybrid piano. Can you imagine a piano that sounds and plays exactly like a traditional acoustic AND is never anything less than perfectly in tune? That would be something to jump up and cheer about ;


Edited by AJF (01/26/10 12:47 AM)

Top
#1358376 - 01/26/10 07:11 AM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: AJF]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: AJF
In the end it just seems, to me, to be a really good digital with good action, good speakers (and speaker placement) that looks good and costs $20,000 -- but not a convincing substitute for the real thing in my opinion.


I think if somebody is in the market for a piano and don't mind any of the disadvantages of an acoustic at all, like its lack of volume control and high maintenance (humidity, tuning, voicing), then why bother looking at any digital? Even if they find a really good digital, it'll still never be good enough because it'll never be 100% like an acoustic. Just buy the acoustic.

But if you're in the market for a piano, and you've been holding out and don't want to get an acoustic because of the volume and maintenance issues, then how good does the digital have to be before you take the dive? Really good? Or really really good? Or really really really good?

Top
#1358380 - 01/26/10 07:22 AM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: rlchram]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: rlchram
Yeah, that idea made me pretty nervous. I highly doubted that a lot of people (if any) would risk messing with the action on that thing. Seemed a little odd to me - especially on a brand new instrument like that. Of course if anyone has I would be very curious to know how it worked out.


The Avant-Grand is the first piano with a real action keyboard that I own, so I can't give any comparison to other actions myself. But I can tell you that my brother who has a Schimmel played my N3 for about an hour when I just got it home and never complained anything about the N3 action. But when I asked him how the N3 action compares to his Schimmel action, he said it's a little heavier than his Schimmel, but no big deal. He thinks it's just due to differences between different manufacturer's actions. So maybe if you're used to a softer action from another brand, you may not like the Yamaha's heavier action.

Top
#1359036 - 01/26/10 11:21 PM Re: AvantGrand action and regulation [Re: Volusiano]
fredericch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 72
Loc: Westport, CT
disclosure: You all know that I'm a Yamaha Artist, but that is because I end up playing Yamahas alot because I like them! I'm happy to see this detailed discussion about the AG N3, for my own interest. So I hope I can contribute a bit to the conversation.

I was stunned by the N3 when I first touched it, and my first desire was to put it in a true concert setting and really push it to the limits. I was finally able to do that in Ithaca last weekend, at the Light in Winter Festival on the Cornell U campus.
While I'm still very impressed, I did push up against the some of the limits of the instrument during the concert. But instead of coming away disappointed, I am actually quite eager to use it, however putting it in the right setting and playing the right repertoire on it.
The program included a set of Chopin Etudes, and the Beethoven/Liszt Symphony V. If anything would test the limits, it would be the Symphony!

First, the volume was impeccable. This was one of my primary worries. The hall seats around 400 (my guess) and it filled the hall comfortably without turning the volume up to maximum. The speakers did not distort at all.

The action worked very well. I turned the artificial vibration feature to the lowest setting, and it felt fine. I'm used to the GranTouch, with no vibration at all, and find the feature a bit disconcerting, but something to get used to.

There were a few glitches in the electronics during the most heated parts of the last movement of the Symphony. Some notes were sounding later than their attacks. This happened 3 or 4 times, in the middle of the densest passages.

(It reminded me of the recording session I did with Yamaha for the Disklavier pro. I recorded the Suggestions Diaboliques. We did a playback immediately after one take, and it was reproducing fine, until it reached the crazy part before the glissandi when it all of a sudden just completely stopped playing. A few seconds later, it started again, right after the glissandi, where the music calms down a bit. I had overloaded the system! We checked and saw that all the data was there, so they took care of it in the editing room!)

There was another little technical glitch, more a programming issue than a defect.

Of course, I know that most N3s will not be submitted to the Beethoven/Liszt Symphony V test! The Chopin Etudes worked very well. I'm very impressed with the pedal control, seemingly able to mix sounds with great nuance. For me, future concerts on the N3 will focus on repertoire outside of the big, dense transcriptions.

I have done most of my practicing on a GranTouch during the past 10 years, and I know the hybrid technology well. The AvantGrand is a huge step forward. And i don't even use most of the features, like the recording/playback, different sounds, MIDI, metronome, etc. I use the hybrid technology to enhance my practicing, such as using it as a dummy keyboard, low volume, left ear, right ear. I've talked about this on other posts.
Most importantly, it allows me to work on passages in a woodshedding way that would be truly irritating to others, but thanks to the headphones, i can do that whenever I need to, day or night.

Look forward to reading more here!

fredericch

Top

Moderator:  Ken Knapp, Piano World, Rickster 
What's Hot!!
75,000 Members and Growing!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
117 registered (AimeeO, a-z0-9, AmateurBob, AndresD, 29 invisible), 1582 Guests and 24 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75509 Members
42 Forums
156143 Topics
2293020 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
How struts define pitch variation between tunings
by Bosendorff
17 minutes 54 seconds ago
Pianist Noah Landis - Lowell, MA Sept. 6th
by Piano World
Today at 06:09 PM
Guidance for Publishing
by Dachshund
Today at 06:02 PM
Keith Emerson Playing NY in October!
by Piano World
Today at 05:52 PM
Action parts any different from 80s,90s, 2k Charles Walter?
by Gatsbee13
Today at 04:36 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission