|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
71 members (anotherscott, AaronSF, apianostudent, beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, Abdulrohmanoman, 17 invisible),
2,224
guests, and
427
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,997
1000 Post Club Member
|
OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,997 |
Wow, I'm overwhelmed by the generous time everyone's taken to reply to my question. I would respond to each of you but must prepare a philosophy/policy for the upcoming meetings. You're correct in that I should have one even though I work for a studio.
I supposed my insecurity stems from being beaten down by a former teacher during my college years. I entered college with a slight confidence in my musical ability and graduated feeling like I had absolutely no musical ability. That was their method of teaching. Now, some ten years later, while playing various pieces in a classroom, a well respected string teacher commented that I sounded fantastic and that when she heard the music, she had to see who it was. I floated out of the building! I think my lack of confidence as a musician is at the root of all this. I have been a manager for many years, and know my students are very happy with me (including adults and transfers!) but still I worry because I've observed some real unrealistic expectations of parents, not only in piano, but in sports, etc.
Piano teacher, BA Music, MTNA member
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572 |
I entered college with a slight confidence in my musical ability and graduated feeling like I had absolutely no musical ability. That was their method of teaching. You should'v asked them about their method of teaching!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,997
1000 Post Club Member
|
OP
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,997 |
Teachers and Parents, thank you so much for all of your input and perspectives. It's been a tremendous help. I also wanted to clarify that I do have a degree in Music Ed, but do not feel nearly prepared to teach all different levels, I am constantly questioning, reading, and trying to absorb all that encompasses being the best teacher I can be. But I do bring a real love and enthusiasm for music to the studio, and I think my students feel that and respond with heartwarming progress and excitement about learning the piano.
Piano teacher, BA Music, MTNA member
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,896
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,896 |
This is what I use in my studio. Please understand if the formatting is off.
Betty Patnude Piano Studio South Hill - Puyallup, Washington
Student Information Form Please answer the following questions on this form and return the form to me. The information you provide prior to the interview helps me prepare a more effective and appropriate interview.
Which is best time to schedule an interview for you? Interview Date: _________________________ __ Friday after school __ Saturday Mornings __ Wednesday Afternoons - Puyallup School District Early Dismissal __ Or, is there a different time that works better for you? _____________________________
Student’s Name: __________________________________________________________________________ Student’s: Age ____ Birthday ____/____/____ __ Child __ Teen __ Adult __ New Beginner __ Transfer __ Advanced Today’s Date: ____/___/____
Who may I thank for this referral? __________________________________________________ Adult’s Name __________________________________________________ E-mail Address __________________________________________________________ Phone: Home __________________________ Cell: __________________ Home Address __________________________________________________ IF student is a child: Siblings Names____________________________________________________ School __________________________ District __________________________ Grade ____ Activities, Hobbies or Sports _________________________________________________ __________________________ Has the student had previous Music Study? Yes? No? Piano Teachers Names __________________________ Length of Study __________________________ Piano Teachers Name __________________________ Length of Study __________________________ Piano Teachers Name __________________________ Length of Study __________________________ Do you have a goal for taking piano lessons? __________________________________________________________________________________________________ Do other family members have previous musical training? Yes? No? Do you have an instrument at home? Yes? No? When do you expect to get started in piano study? __ Soon __ Summer __ September __ January __ Some future date
Is there anything you would like to tell me?
Do you have questions at this time you would like to ask? ________________________________________
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
We're talking about dealing with parents "with attitude" here. The OP was feeling intimidated by some parents during the interview process. I was suggesting a strategy to work around this. Sort of like visualizing your audience naked so you don't have the stage jitters. Thank you, John. Now I understand.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,807
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,807 |
Absolutely. I always allow for that, but they need to know that I run the show.
I entertain questions after I am finished working with the student and ask the parent any questions I have about the child or their situation. AND, I always ask the child if the he or she has anything to ask. Considering the parent is considering hiring you, I think this a strange way to approach an interview. IMO it shouldn't be about who's in charge but mutually trying to find out if the teacher-student match is good. If a parent asks for an inteview, I think that puts them in position of a potential employer interviewing a potential employee.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/29/10 09:12 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639 |
Really? Then they should be paying our FICA/Social Security taxes, right?
It seems to me they're purchasing a service, not hiring us. Just as when you see the doctor or dentist or lawyer, you're purchasing a service. If you want to hire them, the relationship changes.
Haydn was hired; Beethoven provided a service. Solieri was a hired hand of the Arch Duke; Mozart contracted out his services.
Perhaps it's a subtle difference, but it's real, none-the-less.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,807
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,807 |
Really? Then they should be paying our FICA/Social Security taxes, right?
It seems to me they're purchasing a service, not hiring us. Just as when you see the doctor or dentist or lawyer, you're purchasing a service. If you want to hire them, the relationship changes.
Haydn was hired; Beethoven provided a service. Solieri was a hired hand of the Arch Duke; Mozart contracted out his services.
Perhaps it's a subtle difference, but it's real, none-the-less. You can call it what you want but I see no difference in terms of what the interview should be like. If a parent starts acting like a boss with a piano teacher, the piano teacher can stop giving the lessons. The teacher isn't the boss and neither is the parent. If you want to find a doctor to do an important operation you couldn't meet with them first to decide if you wanted them to do it? If you want someone to replace a fence, you can't do the same thing?? It shouldn't about someone taking charge, it should be about both parties finding out if the teacher-student relationship looks like a good idea.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/29/10 10:06 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 966
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 966 |
L, we have discussed this before, but many years ago, so this is probably a good time to resurrect the subject. In re Kreisler's comment: this is one very powerful reason for all teachers, not just males, to make a video record of each and every lesson. This is a very good idea, actually, but I wonder about the logistics of it. First is to get permission from the parents (or adult students) to record them. It must be uncomfortable to ask, and what if permission is not given? But I can see that if you make this part of your policy then it should be OK. The bigger concern is how long you keep these video tapes for? Surely you don't want to tape over an old lesson that was just last week. But if you keep them around long enough (which is a question in itself, how long is long enough?), you may end up with a lot of video tapes and the cost of too many tapes may be prohibitive. I don't keep them at all. They are sent home with the student. Then they are erased at the next lesson and recorded over. Oh, I see. That makes a lot of sense. By doing this, you remove the awkwardness about the reason for videotaping because the main reason is to give the parent or child a chance to review the lesson afterward at home if desired. But it also serves to show that you're all up and up when teaching the lesson and there's nothing to hide even if the parent is not present nearby. The only reason I was thinking about keeping records of the tapes yourself is in case there is ever any false allegation about misconduct on the teacher's side a few lessons later, you have previous tapes to prove your case. But I think your approach of giving the tape to parents after each lesson and reuse it in the next lesson is good enough, and solves the problem of needing too many tapes.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639 |
Well, they would certainly have a hard time explaining to a judge why they got rid of evidence!
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639 |
You said: If a parent asks for an interview, I think that puts them in position of a potential employer interviewing a potential employee. I said: It seems to me they're purchasing a service, not hiring us. Just as when you see the doctor or dentist or lawyer, you're purchasing a service. If you want to hire them, the relationship changes. You replied: You can call it what you want but I see no difference in terms of what the interview should be like. If a parent starts acting like a boss with a piano teacher, the piano teacher can stop giving the lessons. The teacher isn't the boss and neither is the parent. You subtly changed the terms of the discussion here. It was you who brought up employer-employee relationship, no one else, as I recall. And while the term boss is generally a pejorative word these days, the fact remains that the teacher owns and runs their studio or teaching business, not the parent. As many have pointed out already, the interview should be an open, two-way street. If it's dominated by the teacher, the parent will not sign up; if it's dominated by the parent, the inexperienced teacher may find themselves in an untenable position. Recall that the OP was feeling a bit intimidated, and we're all trying her cope with what could be a bad situation. I hope this clarifies.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,896
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,896 |
Pianoloverus,
I enter a business arrangement with a contract with the parents of my students, or adult student, where it specifies what we are agreeing to do together in giving/receiving piano lessons.
It is a contract that can be terminated with 30 days notice by the purchaser of the services. The contract is in force from the time it is signed until the termination is received.
I am in music education and I provide services. The other party buys my year around services as specified in my tuition fees and studio policy. I have a one lesson introduction that can be purchased as the interview/first lesson, and then I have a 10 lesson introduction that can be a trial period before entering yer round lessons.
Someone who thinks they are "hiring" me is not going to like this. This contract allows me to find and keep students who are very serious about their music education. If I didn't define the agreement I would be a the beck and call of someone who constantly wanted to change the parameters of our relationship to his/her liking. I refuse to teach music without being the leader of the triangle of student-parent-teacher. I listen and cooperate with my clients but I don't allow them to run my business not tell me how to teach.
My contract is legal should there ever be any difficulty with my receiving my payments for services rendered.
No one hires me, no one fires me. We work together with a plan in agreement and we agree to work to resolve any difficulties or problems or concern that arise. We agree to communicate.
Actually both the parent and myself are a support system to the child in piano study with the purpose of making progress in musicianship.
"My piano lessons are free. It's my time and expertise you pay for." Students do not hire as you do not follow the rules of having employees as per regulations of the IRS. I'm the person accountable to the IRS. I'm self-employed and many piano teachers are in that category.
A note to teachers: studio policies, interviews before accepting and contracts protect us from being misunderstood and mistreated. Without structure to your business and to your teaching you are leaving yourself wide open to situations you would rather not be involved in. The nonpayments, the missed lessons with no notice, difficult or negative customers, and those very trying situations which rob us of our spirit and energy. You can establish a standard of behavior in your studio and you can get what you want and need in your professional life working with students and their families. We do have to teach people how to treat their place in our studios with respect. This is your life and profession to establish.
Betty Patnude
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 966
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 966 |
^^^ I agree with John above. If anybody who's the boss, the teachers are their own bosses (well, at least private teachers who run their own business, anyway). They decide the policies, the fees, who they accept, who they drop, their schedule/availability, etc. And they can change any of this at will because they're their own bosses. Parents and students are just the clients.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,702
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,702 |
My comments about running the show were meant to imply that the OP should feel empowered. She should not be cowed by the parents.
They are, in fact, coming to my business. I wouldn't dream of going into someone else's business and telling them how to conduct it. If I don't like the way they do business, I go somewhere else.
However, when a family comes for an interview, I must be in charge if I am to learn anything about the child and his or her readiness for study and for the child to understand that when they walk in the studio, I am the authority figure, not the parent. There have been, in times past, occasions when parents have interrupted lessons to either direct a child's behavior or suggest what I should be doing. Ultimately, that undermines my authority. If they are bringing their child to me, they have to trust I know what I'm doing and let me do it. If I'm not "running the show", the authority I demonstrate is negligible and leaves me open for abuse.
Been there, done that, don't want the t-shirt.
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed. M.M., Piano
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946 |
I think it is also possible that some style of teachers and teaching studio policies match different kinds of students and styles of learning and lesson taking.
A teacher who makes his or her living exclusively from teaching beginners hour after hour day in and day out must put together a very school-like and strict policy about scheduling, payments, cancellations, etc. and even be quite bossy and inflexible. Otherwise, people will treat them like "just the piano teacher" and when schedule conflicts arise they will not show up for piano because it is "just the piano". It's not like they are letting a team down or a school reputation and chance at state or bleachers filled with spectators like in school sports.
A teacher who is perhaps a professional musician with an unpredictable performance schedule would feel unnecessarily constrained by an inflexible and full roster of John Thompsoners and is very happy to find (young) adults who may also work full time or also have irregular lives whom he or she coaches or to teach advanced amateurs as a second line of income on a basis of "you pay and we make the next appointment at the end of each lesson, whenever those lessons take place".
It is of course not a black & white issue and there is a continuum of situations in between these two extremes. The idea of an interview is a very smart one and in a good interview both the parent and/or prospective student and the teacher will be "in control": in control of knowing what they want and what their objectives are, what they can offer the other party, what they are looking for in a student / teacher, what constraints they are each operating under and both committed to determining jointly in a pleasant but efficient manner if there is a basis to even give a relationship a trial run.
IMHO an effective piano teaching relationship is a very intimate relationship built on respect, mutual trust and empathy. Successful piano lessons must be designed with the student's motivations as their point of departure. If a teacher in an interview starts all sentences with "I" and "My" and doesn't try to understand what the student needs and wants while being able to explain extemporaneously how their approach either fits or will be tailored to those needs, politely end the interview and call the next teacher on the list. You will be surprised how many teachers are out there and the best ones never advertise. The gift of learning to play the piano is too important and also too fragile to be entrusted to the wrong teacher.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
A teacher is an expert hired by a client to provide a service which he plans, designs, and implements. While the client may know what he wants, the expert will know the best way to reach it, and may also suggest changes to his original plans when they would not work well, because he knows a lot about this thing. The parent is "boss" in that his wishes that his child learn to play the piano must be respected, and the teacher can't decide that it would be more fun to do guitar. The teacher is "boss" in knowing what goals are realistic, and what child and parent need to do to bring these about.
Employment or not has nothing to do with it. A company that employees engineers or welders will make a mess if they don't allow their experts to make decisions based on their expertise. The difference is that the work and roles have already been planned out, and the structure is rather rigid. In freelancing, expert and client first define what needs to be done, what supportive role the client needs to play so that the thing can be done, and of course also hours and remuneration on the practical business side. All that is predefined in employment, including public school teaching.
The interview or trial lesson is a way for the client to assess whether he wants to hire this person. It's like sending a sample to a prospective client, which is unnerving since the worth of your work is being judged. It's all the more precarious since the client probably has no expertise and may judge based on peculiar criteria. So you are also guiding the client, letting them understand something of the process without seeming defensive. Some of us parents would find such guidance reassuring because we're nervous too, and this is actually the "leadership" John mentioned earlier.
If the client does hire you, then the trial lesson also establishes what everyone will be doing, gets questions out of the way, because all three people play a role. A parent interacts both with teacher and student and may have to act as a go-between between the teacher and student, and ditto of teacher for student and parent. A teacher cannot do a proper job if child and parent don't cooperate, so it's not about being boss but being able to get you to where you want to go.
Isn't that what it's about, rather than who is the boss of whom, or whether the hiring party pays into the pension plan?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,807
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,807 |
A teacher is an expert hired by a client to provide a service which he plans, designs, and implements. While the client may know what he wants, the expert will know the best way to reach it, and may also suggest changes to his original plans when they would not work well, because he knows a lot about this thing. The parent is "boss" in that his wishes that his child learn to play the piano must be respected, and the teacher can't decide that it would be more fun to do guitar. The teacher is "boss" in knowing what goals are realistic, and what child and parent need to do to bring these about.
Employment or not has nothing to do with it. A company that employees engineers or welders will make a mess if they don't allow their experts to make decisions based on their expertise. The difference is that the work and roles have already been planned out, and the structure is rather rigid. In freelancing, expert and client first define what needs to be done, what supportive role the client needs to play so that the thing can be done, and of course also hours and remuneration on the practical business side. All that is predefined in employment, including public school teaching.
The interview or trial lesson is a way for the client to assess whether he wants to hire this person. It's like sending a sample to a prospective client, which is unnerving since the worth of your work is being judged. It's all the more precarious since the client probably has no expertise and may judge based on peculiar criteria. So you are also guiding the client, letting them understand something of the process without seeming defensive. Some of us parents would find such guidance reassuring because we're nervous too, and this is actually the "leadership" John mentioned earlier.
If the client does hire you, then the trial lesson also establishes what everyone will be doing, gets questions out of the way, because all three people play a role. A parent interacts both with teacher and student and may have to act as a go-between between the teacher and student, and ditto of teacher for student and parent. A teacher cannot do a proper job if child and parent don't cooperate, so it's not about being boss but being able to get you to where you want to go.
Isn't that what it's about, rather than who is the boss of whom, or whether the hiring party pays into the pension plan?
I agree.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983 |
My initial response before I have read one comment...
I interview the student and parents, not the other way around. The interview is about learning about each other and what is offered and expected. I want to learn about the student, the parents goals and explain my expectations of the student and parent. The parent wants to know a little about my personality and what is important about what I teach and how I teach. It is a give and take of sharing ideas and seeing how things fit.
I play something as an inspiration, but do not feel the need to show off. Music is to share and I hope that whatever I play, shows my feeling about sharing music.
Just a few positive suggestions!
EDIT - now that I have read your responses, there are some great suggestions and ideas being shared here.
LL
Last edited by lilylady; 01/30/10 01:06 PM.
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 68
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 68 |
All I can say is WOW! Things sure have changed since I took lessons!
I would hand my teacher payment, which was due at the end of the month - (or was it the beginning? You know, I can't recall as I was kid and such matters were not my concern.) - sit myself down at the grand piano and for the next hour, we would have a fine time.
My teacher was a gentle mannered soul, which was good for me as I was the shy, quiet type - we got along great. I never, never thought of him as 'just' the piano teacher. I had a great deal of respect (at times even awe) for his abilities (he played a number of instruments). He would always go out of his way to give me a very well rounded education.
As an adult, I now recognize and appreciate the quality of his instructions that I never recognized as a young child. If I could only turn the clocks back. . . . .
We were friends and I never dreamed of showing him the kind of disrespect and/or inconsideration that has been talked about here. It just wasn't 'there'. My mother never treated him as someone who was just there to occupy my time when I was bored - he was not, by any means, the glorified baby sitter.
Sure - on initial meeting there is the tendency to size each other up. After all, when one purchases a service, one wants the best bang for their buck And sure, no teacher in their right mind wants to be treated like someone who is there to entertain a kid on a rainy day, or like the 'hired help'. . . .
Some of the feelings expressed here have saddened me - saddened me that posters feel the need to 'lay down the law'.
I would sincerely hope that if I was ever lucky enough to begin formal instruction again, that my future instructor would regard me as an individual and have an open mind about what our future relationship may be like. I sincerely hope that s/he would not regard me as someone they have to protect themselves from because of the possibility of how I may treat them due to past bad experience with others.
I would further hope that thoughts of who is running the show and who is boss would be the furthest thing from our minds. Music is such a joy, and I wouldn't want those other matters to get in the way. I wouldn't want our relationship to be a tug of war, a play for 'power', each party feeling that they have to protect themselves and their interest in it.
Maybe I'm a dreamer or stuck in the past.
But like I said - all I can say is WOW!
Music is the voice of the heart.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,702
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,702 |
Those of us who talk about "running the show" are not monsters. We've just been taken advantage of before and treated with disrepsect. We learned our lessons. The problems are not with the children, they are with the parents, people who are often just looking for the best bargain they can get.
It's a shame that these things get in the way, but I find that conducting myself in a business-like manner allows me to have the joy of music-making with the students. I have a highly successful full studio of children who are amazing to work with and parents who respect me and how I run my business.
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed. M.M., Piano
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,408
Posts3,349,457
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|