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Presumably, not all your parents feel like they have to tell you how to teach. Out of curiosity, how many parents ask you "My boss thinks I should learn different pieces..." type of questions versus the parents who have total trust in your decisions?

Of course, the way you've worded these questions ("my grandma plays the piano this way...") is humourous and offensive at the same time. All questions probably lie in some range within the tactfulness spectrum.

Really, what would your recommendations be for a parent who feels that something isn't being covered? Maybe it's that you don't feel it's the appropriate time for that material to be covered. I think the parent can be put at ease with that proper explanation. It's not necessarily the parent second-guessing your decision, but just that the parent wants to know you've already thought about it.



Added afterwards: By "offensive", I did not mean that I am offended. I meant that I can see the teacher feeling offended.

There are thousands of people with umpteen background reading this thread in myriad ways. Some may be (prospective) parents or students identifying with the same, read the frustration and anger and feel it will be directed at them. One can't have a proper picture unless "walking in someone's shoes" (though sometimes maybe we can have an idea). While there are pitfalls to the staff room coming into the open, this is also a chance where we can learn from each other. It may be that someone having read and understood some of what has been posted here can approach a teacher with more understanding and less chance of miscommunication. Or vice versa.

There is a chance that we can harbour preconceptions about the role, the person, or the process - teacher, student, or both - never get past those preconceptions, see things through the lense of those preconceptions, and continue to miss each other. If a dent can be made in this where it exists, that would be a good thing.

I realize that this is condensed to the point of barely being comprehensible. I have written way too much in the past two years and am not convinced that I made sense during my own journey of coming to grips with some of these things. So it stays condensed. At best maybe it makes a bit of sense.

I am not a piano teacher but I do not find Elissa's experience too peculiar. The questions she listed probably reflect genuine ignorance, with a dash of mean-spiritidness and distrust. This is not all that uncommon and I find that it more commonly targets women professionals.
But such inquiries should not be taken personally , nor should they be allowed to undermine the teacher's self confidence. That is a bigger problem than the silly discourteous questions.
By the way, I find Journey's repsonses to be too passive aggressive and sometimes frankly mean. . Not always a good strategy. Even ignoramuses will pick on that..
In my profession, I get questioned a lot because I do not fit the stereotype in people's minds. I get interrogated about my training, I receive advice as to how to do my job and people do not hesitate at the end of a 30 minute discussion to ask me again if I am really the "only" person they are supposed to meet.All this and they are meeting me in a very professional place where I would not stand a chance to be if I were not properly credentialed and high performing..
So take heart..

Two words as both someone who has taught one-on-one, and who freelances (and is/was a student)

Client education.

The trouble with "what isn't being covered" is that there is also an underlying idea of what should be covered, how you will see that it is being covered - a concept of the educational process itself. I am thinking both as a teacher and as student / parent of student (now grown).

As teacher I once brought a girl labeled as LD up several levels in reading by addressing where her problems actually lay. It had something to do with timing, trying to see everything at once, and fear. We did some unconventional things, and in the third month the girl came skipping up the stairs, saying she had tried reading every book in the classroom and saw that she could read them all. Her mother was disturbed because learning should be tedious, not fun. The child was withdrawn and placed in a program that used workbooks because it "looked like education".

As student & parent it was not always clear that we were being taught because some things can come in subliminally through the back door. You may be asked to do something that seems trivial or senseless, and not know that while you are doing it you are acquiring an understanding of some aspect of theory which later you might learn formally. It may be that the teacher next door who seems a fount of efficiency is actually teaching less deeply. (or not)

Another word: Trust

This one is tricky, because there are teachers who know how to teach, others who don't, and some who do it so-so. If something doesn't seem to be going well, maybe it isn't. Or maybe we just have the wrong expectation of what should be happening. On the other hand, take the "transfer student" we read about who comes in playing three or four pieces impressively with every hand motion choreographed and numbers written in the sheet music, but who cannot read music, interpret music, or have any of the basic skills that teachers say this student should have after several years of study. Has that former teacher cynically (or naively) taught toward parent expectation and abandoned what is necessary in the way of tools - because those tools are uninteresting and not readily understood?

You must entrust yourself to the teacher and work with that teacher, doing what they suggest, how they suggest it, for it to work. But some teachers are not trustworthy and how can we tell? Our "four piece virtuoso" who has the next teacher pulling out her hair was convinced he was progressing.

What do we need? To educate ourselves?

(Dang - verbose after all)

I'm one of the non-piano teachers who read this thread and got the impression that some of the teachers here are angry, defensive, and that they think piano teachers are a group apart I've gotten that impression from other threads. I don't think *all* of the teachers are, but many in this thread sound that way to me.

My thoughts -

Yes, this is often like a teachers lounge. But it's - public. So, if one uses a name by which one can be identified it's probably a good idea to respond to this thread with that in mind. If you would only normally say these things in a teachers-only-it-goes-no-further-than-here teachers lounge, then it probably shouldn't be said here. At least not in some of the ways it's said in this thread. Just a caution.

The internet is a written medium. So it is in many ways easier to read something differently than the writer thinks they mean. We have no body language to help interpret the words. Sometimes we have some history, here on this forum, with a poster, that influences the way we interpret them. Sometimes not. So it takes more thought about how a post is going to be received than, again, talking with other teachers in a teachers lounge.

And, responding to the way I've interpreted some of these posts - piano teachers really aren't any more special than any other group They get the same kinds of comments from their students and those parents that - retail clerks get, or math teachers, or auto mechanics get, or accountants get, or preachers get, or golf pros get, or any of us get from colleagues and acquaintences at some time or another. To react to the "rudeness" or "disrepect" one gets from others as if it's somehow because one is a piano teacher to me distorts the situation, and sounds, again to me, like one is playing victim. It's just life. And, as several others have pointed out, it's not *always* disrepect.

Just some thoughts.

Cathy

Why does one have to think of them as "powerplays"? I don't think Journey's responses sounded like they were being interpreted that way.

I don't really get what the whole "powerplay" thing is about. Sometimes parents have questions and concerns, so they voice them. Sometimes I have questions and concerns, so I voice them.

I had a difficult situation a few years ago, so I talked to the parent about it. She was upset, and though I was not at fault, she decided to discontinue lessons. That's her prerogative. I felt bad for a few days, but I got over it.

This, by the way, is another reason I hold two recitals each year and have students enter festivals. My students' performance success is the proof in the pudding. It's the feedback I need to know I'm doing a good job, and it's the feed back parents need to know they're getting quality lessons for their kids.

If my students played a recital and they all crashed and burned, had memory slips and didn't sound any better than they did 6 months ago, then I would be very worried indeed.

I'm about to get another report card next Sunday. Our state auditions are next Sunday, and I have 90% of my students entered. (I usually don't enter first year beginners. I think it's too early for an adjudicated event.) We'll see what the judge's comments say. Then we'll get back to work for our next performance, and my next report card, at our spring recital in May.

Elissa is very clearly to me, an experieced piano teacher with huge talents. I say this just from her postings in the piano teachers forum, not from the reputation she holds in the world of music which I am just beginning to learn about.

Elissa is savvy and reality oriented. I find myself almost completely in alignment with her views. I'm sure she knows pedagogy and teaching to the max and has many, many things that work in her teaching, she is responsive, she is organized, structure, thinks, walks and talks like an educated and aware piano teach with lots of experience and a fine reputation. When someone things Elissa or I are "angry" they are completely wrong about that: we are representing ourselves and what we know to be true in a calm and calculated voice. The problem is that no one is listening to our viewpoints only using our viewpoints to continue to aggravate us about having a viewpoint which contrasts to theirs. I would, at this point, having been immersed in enough of it here in PWF, call this "bullying" teachers.

What is not being understood in this topic by people who are not piano teachers is that 1) we teach, many of us in our homes, and 2)we conduct a self-employed business according where we are the sole proprietors.

These two things are separate entities. Both of these things require a strong sense of values and operations. Our intentions are to accomplish your goals and to teach to the best of our abilities within the framework we have devised for ourselves. It is not debatable in our private studios, it stands as policy and method of operation.

We have to be well prepared and well disciplined in both areas.

In both areas we are operating from our professional level of what we deem important and necessary to conduct both the teaching and the business enterprise.

We are not open to every person who would ask us to make changes for them, nor are we open to allowing a difficult, negative, or undermining person into our enterprise. The minute there is true disrespect or someone making waves they need to be dealt with and perhaps removed from our enterprise. We do not have to suffer fools.

The music pathway is precious to all of us as musicians and as teachers. It is a challenging and adventurous path to want to become a musician and it is a seriousness of purpose both on the part of the teacher, the student and the parent who supports everyone in this endeavor.

We need to base our experiences together on trust, building a working relationship with each other, communicating to understand each other and to resolve issues or problems when they occur. We more forward with purpose.

What the adults and non-teachers do not understand about us is that we have a purpose, a passion, a lifetime dedication to bringing musical accomplishments to people who only dreamed about it.

All the other "crap" we get is about people's ego's and wanting to be heard, or to actually be incontrol of what happens during their piano lesson. Well, shop for that and find it if you can if that is your main criteria for having lessons. Recreation would be a good name for that. It is a different kind of teaching than giving someone a music education.

But, when you see a tried and true blue piano teacher, don't think that you get to decimate our chosen work, our attitudes, our philosophies, based on our long term experiences in music, which is usually from our childhood forward to today's present moment, with idle chatter and somewhat limited experiences and attitudes to music education.

I don't think people such as the one's we are hearing from really belong in our studio's - they need the alternative in music. So if we accept only the students who present their best foot forward to us, we don't really have to under take trying to educate the lesson common denominators who would only cause us flare and discontent.

It's easy enough to spot positives and negatives in interviews, don't you think, teachers? And, it's easy enough to spot them here on the forum. We don't owe one more word to defending ourselves to anyone. And, unfortunately, it's getting to be almost daily around here!

Betty Patnude

As you pointed out, jotur, we only have the written word to go by around here. It has its limitations and through them, its problems. I am at an added disadvantage for I am new here and don't have the benefit of 'knowing' the other posters.

On a separate issue and addressing some points in general:

We live in a world of all types, and as such, all of us are going to encounter them in just about every walk of life. No one group of people is made up of the nice guys. You are going to find the pains just about everywhere you go no matter who you are and what your profession/line of work is in life.

The trick here is to not allow the bad experiences to shade other relationships, esp. those relationships that are new and have yet to develop. And I think that that is part of the problem that I am seeing here - some people have 'had enough' and so they are taking the 'never again' stance. While this is understandable, defensiveness, suspicion and the need to take control so that it doesn't happen again can negatively impact a relationship.

I have no problems with being regarded with a certain amount of questioning and uncertainty when I am a new acquintance. We are new to one another and there is a 'getting to know' you period.

OTOH, I do have a problem with being regarded with suspicion and with the attitude of 'if I don't lay down the law NOW, this new student will take advantage of me so I better let them know from the start who is in charge here' type thinking. It is an insult to me to judge me by either 1. the bad behavior of others in general or 2. by the bad behavior of those who may, in some way, be associated with me (such as the bad behavior of adult students). It would be the same as if I walked into the studio of a new teacher, and because I had a bad experience with a past teacher or teachers, I must now protect myself from this new teacher who just may behave as badly.

Teachers can indeed behave just as badly as students and/or parents. Like I said - there are pains in every walk of life.

Distrust above and beyond a certain degree, suspicion and defensiveness does a new acquaintence an injustice and is not supportive of a good working relationship. If that relationship is to work, there must to a certain degree trust and respect coming from both sides.

The 'my way or the highway' attitude doesn't work any better then the 'you are the hired help, I am your boss' attitude. Both are obnoxious. I, personally, want to participate in none of it. Its my hope that such attitudes are the exception to the rule rather than the norm. Otherwise I'd give up on the hope of ever taking lessons again.

Minniemay - If I misread your post, my apologies.

"For every short-fused, personally affronted, outraged victim answer there are an equal or greater number of thoughtful, mature, intelligent, relationship-strengthening responses that allow everyone to "be respected.""

Thank you for that. What a scary discussion... for a person who is looking at finding a new piano teacher. Maybe, at that, it does cast some light on the behavior of my most recent piano teacher, if this is the way people behave toward teachers these days. I cast it, after a period of reflection, as "bitter divorcee syndrome," and maybe I was not so far off, if not quite in the bulls-eye; the two are kissing cousins. Whatever. I want no part of it.

I came up in a time and place where one would never speak disrespectfully to a teacher--- and indeed, my teachers (as a rule) met their responsibilities and were worthy of my respect. They were also respectful of, and patient and persevering with me as a young student. Of course, more is known about pedagogy now, thanks to research and better pedagogical education. Reading back on the state of the technology a hundred or a hundred-and-fifty years ago, it is clear that things have come a long way. Maybe the word hasn't reached everyone.

So, what is this mud-wrestling match? It is hard to see anyone who comes out a winner, and the one ends up as covered with mud as the other.

It is no great news flash that kids (and dogs; and in fact, most of us) do better when there is structure. Nor is it news that professional teachers operate a business according to a stated contract and within standards of conduct that apply to all--- at least, it isn't to me. A person could get thrown out of any hash-house if they went in and started a food-fight. But anyone who sets boundaries, no matter how healthy or beneficial, can expect to have them challenged and probed; that is how their location is defined and discovered.

Part of the expected ethical conduct of a private teacher is not to accept money by admitting students who are unable to benefit, just as the old saying about 'teaching a pig to sing' reminds us (if we could interview a pig). But every protest or delinquency is not about dissing the teacher, and those 'example questions' that get to the root of what the problem really is, are brilliant. They would work. They express the actual 'leading out' dynamic of real education; you could say they actually express 'leading beyond.'

Doesn't it beat the stuffing out of taking a snit and having a meltdown because your 'authority is challenged'? A real authority in a teacher would keep ahead of such a situation and divert this energy into a more productive direction before it came to this.

To be honest, I don't really get what is going on either. I've never encountered all this 'who is in power' stuff, and it still surprises me. I can only go by what I am reading here because I have never encountered it.

But still - I now put it on my list of things to think about and consider, for its obvious that does it exist.

I rather just study the music - but come the day that this power stuff takes precident over the music, for whatever reason(s) it may, I pack my bags and go elsewhere.

Life is difficult as it is without creating problems for one another.

I sure am curious to know how your "meet and greet" passes, Irenev.

I'm betting that you say, well they were so nice, so sweet, they seemed a bit intimidated to meet me, a piano teacher, I don't know why I was so nervous about this.

(And then the next time, next meet-n-greet, you'll be nervous all over again!)

Agree 100%.

And just to put things into perspective, my wife is a medical resident. She once got chewed out by a family member because a patient was discharged two hours late because another patient needed immediate attention and the paperwork was delayed. This was at the end of a sleepless 30-hour shift.

If anything, piano teachers have it easy. We can't be sued for malpractice, and no matter how badly we might screw up, nobody's going to die.

I think Betty was right about the "sole-proprietor" thing being part of the problem, though. We are often our own boss and our own employee. We have long-term one-on-one relationships with our clients. Every student we have represents a significant investment of our time and energy, and every student generates a significant part of our revenue.

But if my wife can't expect someone to understand "Take Care of Dying People Before Doing Paperwork For Healthy Ones," I don't think piano teachers have much hope.

I think in some ways a private piano teacher has it easier in terms of relationships with parents or students than say a public or private school math teacher. The math teacher doesn't have the choice, in most cases, to drop a student who's disprespectful or a problem in some other way. Same with an obnoxious parent.

Yuppers - it is a scary discussion. I am looking for an instructor too.

I took lessons once upon a time and NEVER encountered any of this stuff. Now, in all fairness, I was a kid at the time, and no doubt, the adults involved considered certan issue not my concern. But I took lessons for 3 years, my teacher and my mother were always pleasant with one another.

But it is apparent that these issues do come to the table as they are here. I just don't want them interfering in the focus in my possible future lessons, which should always be on the music.

And the working relationship is what becomes supportive of the music.

But I still think that these issues are the exception rather than the norm. At least, I do hope.

So, I will put my surpirse on the back burner, and continue to read here.

Very true, in my experience with teaching in both situations. (but not maths, of course! )
You may think you are representing yourself in a "calm and calculated voice", but as the one who heard anger in the post, I only have the actual written words to go on. If people like me are seeing what you didn't intend, you might consider the possibility that I'm not "bullying" but trying to work out what you actually mean.

lol. I'm sure they wouldn't have admitted that they ruled in such a tyranical fashion!

I'm operating in a different time zone to most participants in this discussion, so I've just caught up on the discussion.

This forum seems to have many participants who are adults who are returning to or just commencing piano lessons, and in this sense there's not much point piano teachers discussing the challenges they face with that readership participating in the conversation. On the other hand, there are young or new teachers (maybe too young to realistically expect they would have already completed a degree in piano pedagogy) who would love to have some experienced advice as to how to approach their teaching.

The truth is that young teachers do struggle to assert themselves as do many older teachers, for a myriad of reasons.

I've met so many teachers whose teaching has deteriorated as they chop and change according to the latest whim of the parent or student; whose sense of self-esteem has been battered by parents demanding discounts or blaming the teacher for the student's lack of progress (when the student has simply not been practicing). So, yeah, I'm protective of this group of dedicated group of music educators who warmly welcome people into their own homes so that they can share the skills they've developed.

Back on the responses TheJourney made to that list of questions, yes, I realise that my late-night posting was somewhat opaque: I agree that the TheJourney suggested responses to students' questions is/can be seen as/could be passive aggressive, and it is this aspect of these responses that had me acknowledging their devastating effectiveness - in the short term. From my experience I have found that that same student will return the next week with some new extraordinary assertion or questioning of the teacher's abilities. When the teacher takes on the actual words of the student's question (TheJourney's suggestion) but not the spirit of the enquiry one doesn't make genuine progress.

I'm in COMPLETE agreement with the content and spirit of Betty's post. (thank you Betty for those comments).

The OP was asking about what that first interview is good for, and this discussion has spiralled out of an observation (made long before I joined in) that the first interview is partially about the teacher reassuring the parent that the teacher knows what they are doing - as a teacher (not necessarily as a performer). Communicating a sense of plan and purpose in that first interview can pre-empt ongoing toxic challenges to the teacher's expertise.

And that's what this sideline 'scary' discussion is about: how does a teacher work effectively as an educator when their expertise is being called into question? And it's not appropriate to compare education to other kinds of professional services.

A teacher is a guide, and a guide relies on those being guided to follow their guidance. Imagine trekking through a wilderness with a guide you have hired. At each fork in the road you suggest the map they are using is inappropriate. At each river you question why you need to cross it. At each rock-face you suggest the guide has blundered. And you complain about the weight of the pack on your back, announcing on a daily basis that you wish you didn't have to carry it.

In addition, you complain that others you've known have managed this track much faster. Part way along the journey you announce that you've decided to short-change the guide when it comes time to pay them.

Meantime, the guide goes about their business every day, trying to ignore the carping, the irrelevant commentary, and not wanting to have the trek delayed by lengthy debates about reimbursement. The guide is so excited about the views from the summit, and the amazing plant-life that can be seen in the valleys, they can hardly wait to share what they've experienced with those they are guiding.

It's true that not only teachers post here. There have been long discussions in the past over this, and the upshot was that anyone can post, but when offering advice non-teachers should indicate that. Because this is a public forum it can't be a private teachers' lounge. But I think we can still discuss these things, as long as we expect a little protest from someone if we generalise too much or typecast adult students for example (these have been the problem areas in the past). Absolutely, and that's a large part of what this is all about.

The time zone thing can be a nuisance, can't it. I log on in the mornings and it takes ages to catch up with what people have been saying overnight (from my perspective).

You're not interested in the pupils' or parents' point of view?