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#1360984 - 01/29/10 02:49 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: Nikolas]
D4v3 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 501
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Put it this way, at the same age when Nikolas finished his PhD in music, I bet Barenboim did not have the same musical knowledge as Nikolas, in terms theory, history etc, etc. A genuine musician will spend his or her time play the musical instrument, only those who do not have enough talent will do other thing in music.
The first thing is talent....like what Horowitz said.
WOW!

Why on earth do I get myself put into such positions?!?!?!

1. I have no idea why the comparison with Barenboim came.
2. Your argument is silly to begin with. Are you saying that only performers have 'talent', but the rest do not? So.. Boulez, Stravinsky, Ligetti and other composers (who as far I know were not proficient in any instrument) are 'talentless pricks' who became composers cause they didn't know how to play any instrument?!?!?! laugh
3. Your argument is even more silly with the whole comparison with Barenboim:
If we had the same parents
the same country
the absolutely same education
the same teachers
and the very very same education, we could argue. Otherwise no point really in even trying.

Geez...

So now I'm not a 'genuiune musician', and I have no talent, thus I turned to composition!

Well done mate! laugh


On a side note, I think Ligeti came out to Stanford while I was taking with Dr. Thomas Schultz, many years ago. I really liked his Devil's stair case piece.

Devil's Staircase
_________________________
Currently learning composition:

Some of my compositions

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#1361001 - 01/29/10 03:08 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: D4v3]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6098
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
This article runs around in many societies for gifted people.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1361042 - 01/29/10 04:02 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: Nikolas]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Nikolas

3. Your argument is even more silly with the whole comparison with Barenboim:
If we had the same parents
the same country
the absolutely same education
the same teachers
and the very very same education, we could argue. Otherwise no point really in even trying.


I agree completely with what you have expressed in this thread, Nikolas.

However, an anecdote.

There are, here in Andorra, two brothers, twins in fact. They are around 60 years old. When they were small children, their father decided that they would be musicians, one on violin, the other on cello. He sent them to the best professors available, not here in Andorra but among the Barcelona-Catalan musical circles. I am told by a good friend of theirs that the father locked each in a room and made them practise long hours, wouldn't let them out until he was satisfied.

But there is one of the two who has something special. He became a soloist. He has toured the world, playing with many of the greatest orchestras. He has recorded, played with many great musicians, sits on the juries of international competitions. He is on the faculty of a conservatory in France.

The other twin is a good musician but doesn't have that something special, as a player anyway. He is the founder of the Andorran orchestra. Playing for the 100th time Bach's concerto for 2 violins for our sleepy Andorran public.

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#1361052 - 01/29/10 04:14 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: landorrano]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Who is the performer, landorrano?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1361054 - 01/29/10 04:16 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: stores]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
I'll tell you after a bit, Stores, I'm curious to see how the anecdote is interpreted.

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#1361059 - 01/29/10 04:27 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: landorrano]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
I bet the performer is an exilent cellist who might be mistaken for a on old Bordeaux by an Englishman.

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#1361066 - 01/29/10 04:36 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: theJourney]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
That's a pretty good play on words, theJourney. It took me a minute, or two, to figure out who you could be getting at, but I'm betting I'm pretty sure I know who it is now.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1361067 - 01/29/10 04:37 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: theJourney]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
I once asked my teacher who has wide experience teaching gifted kids and conservatory students. To my surprise his answer focused much more on the extent of an individual's interest in music. "A talented person drops everything and is entirely focused on music". The implication of course is that such person has signifcant abilities that provide a potent postitive feedback loop to their strong desire to make music passionately. I must say that I was a bit surprised at first and thought that this definition is a bit naive. But on second thought, it may not be.
Perhpas landorrano's anecdote is a good illustration. The less successful twin, while immersed in the "same" genetic and social microenvironment, may have simply been less interested, less entirely dedicated to music..

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#1361072 - 01/29/10 04:43 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: stores]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: eweiss
Actually, 'judging' talent in itself is inane with multiple judges. Why? Because different judges will have different experiences and hear something the others won't.

I'm assuming they are listening for the 'X' factor - that something special that lies behind the notes. What a waste of time.


Why is it a waste of time to look for something deeper than what's on the surface?

No need to look. If it's there, it's there. Now let me ask you a question ... do you think Flavor Flav is talented? A lot of people do. Do you see how inane the whole question of 'talent' is?

Of course, in the classical music world, some get their jolly's by judging the worth of a performance - and that of another person's music. I can't think of anything more ridiculous.

Think of the art world where ribbons are given for the best painting, second runner up, etc. It ALL depends on who's judging doesn't it?
_________________________
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#1361092 - 01/29/10 04:58 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: eweiss]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5245
Loc: Europe
On landarrano's anecdote: I find that a single moment in someones' life can change them forever! I remember hearing Billy Joel talking about the 'moment tht he was being galvanised into become a musician was wathcing the Beatles in the Ed Salivan show for the first time" (almost exact quote). This is why it's SO hard to pin point talent from circumstances, from determination, from passion, from...

More over as a teacher (especially in composition) I've decided that I can't really provide knoweldge to those I think talented. It'd be awful of me to do that! I don't have many students in composition (only 3), but it remains that each one are treated in the best possible way! And not based to their talents, needless to say!

Sidenote: @ D4v3, while I love the etude, this video... argh! (and I also like the pianist; he's done some very interesting trasciprtions for 4 hands (libertango, for example))
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http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1361093 - 01/29/10 05:01 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: stores]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5245
Loc: Europe
Sorry for the double post...

Roger: In education it's very much accepted that each student is a unique case, and each one respond differently to different inputs. Other people may be visual types, other aural, others learn by teachers mouth alone, etc... I'm not the reading type, I can tell you that! laugh Under this idea, along with the fact that we all are different it seems that 'some inclination' to a field might be there. And although it may not be in our DNA, or inherited by some force beyond our personal beliefs, it may be that it was given to us in a moment that we were not aware (a moment when we were months old). It's impossible to know what shapes us into what we are today...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1361098 - 01/29/10 05:09 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: Nikolas]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
I continue to find your position highly intelligent, Nikolas.

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#1361138 - 01/29/10 06:14 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: Nikolas]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
On landarrano's anecdote: I find that a single moment in someones' life can change them forever! I remember hearing Billy Joel talking about the 'moment tht he was being galvanised into become a musician was wathcing the Beatles in the Ed Salivan show for the first time" (almost exact quote). This is why it's SO hard to pin point talent from circumstances, from determination, from passion, from...

More over as a teacher (especially in composition) I've decided that I can't really provide knoweldge to those I think talented. It'd be awful of me to do that! I don't have many students in composition (only 3), but it remains that each one are treated in the best possible way! And not based to their talents, needless to say!

Sidenote: @ D4v3, while I love the etude, this video... argh! (and I also like the pianist; he's done some very interesting trasciprtions for 4 hands (libertango, for example))


Good points, but in reference to Billy Joel, I think your (or Joel's) choice of the word, galvanised, a good one, since he'd already been studying the piano for several years by the time The Beatles, made their first appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1361390 - 01/30/10 01:53 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: Nikolas]
RogerW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Roger: In education it's very much accepted that each student is a unique case, and each one respond differently to different inputs. Other people may be visual types, other aural, others learn by teachers mouth alone, etc... I'm not the reading type, I can tell you that! laugh Under this idea, along with the fact that we all are different it seems that 'some inclination' to a field might be there. And although it may not be in our DNA, or inherited by some force beyond our personal beliefs, it may be that it was given to us in a moment that we were not aware (a moment when we were months old). It's impossible to know what shapes us into what we are today...

This is true, and then there is of course also physical treats that are in your DNA that might be of a great advantage in some certain sport (or perhaps even for some certain instrument).

But I would say that any inate capabilities are very general, not as specific as many seem to think when talking about "talent". In most cases I think it's about IQ, or whatever way you wish to use to measure intelligence.

If you for example take two seven years old beginners, one of which immediately understands the logic of the musical staff and how the position of the notes there relates to the position on the keyboard, the other student just doesn't get this. One year later, the first student will have learned a lot of pieces and received lots of instructions on technique, while the other will have spent a lot of time doing excercises that would help him eventually undestand the staff and he would have played a lot less pieces as he reads and learns much slower. It is also a lot more mentally demanding and less fun for him to learn new pieces, which might have a negative effect on his motivation.

At this point the first student will play much better and everybody will say that "oh, he's much more talented". More talented at what?? The only difference was that he understood some abstract symbol system. This has nothing to do with musical talent.

In teaching, of course I have seen that there is a lot of different learners. Some do learn faster than others. Those who learn faster are mostly those who immediately understand instructions and who can also apply this knowledge on their own. The fast learners are also very motivated, they want to learn. But most importantly, those who learn the fastest are those who practise the most. A very "talented" student is one who belongs to all three groups. He wants to learn to play the piano, he is smart enough to understand that this can only happen if he practises enough, therefore he does practise a lot and when he practises, he is also thinking about what he is doing, not just banging through the pieces.

So there's talent for you: "intelligence, motivation + hard work". Later in life, you will have to add "complete dedication" and "ability to withstand long sessions of mentally stressful hard work" to the equation. Early on you can progress fast with relatively little work, but to reach a certain level, the amount of practise required is just too much for some people to take.

Ooh, long post.. still had some points to make, but I think I really should go now and nurture my talent with a long mentally stressful practise session.

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#1361402 - 01/30/10 02:39 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: RogerW]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5245
Loc: Europe
I agree fully with you Roger! smile

Talent for me means something inside our DNA, given by our parents, or by God (or whatever, so that I don't touch any religious issues here).

I don't like this idea.

Of course each of us is different and we appeal to different fields in a different way. But the very serious and important question is the following: Our inclination to certain field was acquired at some point in life (no matter if we do remember it or not), or as a sort of talent. If it's the latter, we seem to have no control over our lives, our children, etc. A child will be born a criminal no matter what!

On the contrary I find great joy in feeling that we all play a part, and what we do has great impact in our children, our learners, our students, our selves! And I strive at any moment to teach my kids (aged 6 and 4) what I find important, in hopes that some will cling later on in life, rather than hope it's there already!

Not so long a post, but still...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1361436 - 01/30/10 05:06 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: landorrano]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: landorrano

But there is one of the two who has something special. He became a soloist. He has toured the world, playing with many of the greatest orchestras. He has recorded, played with many great musicians, sits on the juries of international competitions. He is on the faculty of a conservatory in France.

The other twin is a good musician but doesn't have that something special, as a player anyway. He is the founder of the Andorran orchestra. Playing for the 100th time Bach's concerto for 2 violins for our sleepy Andorran public.


I do not consider the story a proof that talent exists, that one had the "gift" and the other didn't.

My interpretation is that one brother didn't become a virtuoso because the other one did. And vice versa.

It is something in the relationship between them, and between them and their father and their mother. In other words, a very deep psychological explanation, impossible to bring to light in detail because the secret is locked away in the unconscious of these two men.

There is another element that is certainly of great importance, but, again, impossible to measure.

The father was from Barcelona, he came to Andorra as a refugee after the Spanish civil war. He was a close friend of Pau Casals, Pablo Casals. He remained intimate with Casals until the latter died in the 70s.

The brother who learned cello studied at Barcelona with Casals' brother.

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#1361438 - 01/30/10 05:24 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: stores]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1157
I think some things make up talent:

Desire and drive
Understanding
Knowing what to aim for
Knowing how to get there
Being able to synthesize it
Being willing to work hard for it.

Obviously there is talent, but nobody, no matter how talented, ever achieved any level of success without hard work. So, you may have God-given talent, but what use is it unless you work it?

Careers incidentally, are also based on luck. And not everyone wants a full time concert career. The pressure of that is hard to cope with and you have to be able to ride it like a wave almost.

No, I don't have a big concert career, but I've nothing but respect for those that do.

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#1361439 - 01/30/10 05:27 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1157
.... incidentally the other Andorran twin did have something special. He founded an orchestra. He brought the Bach double concerto to your sleepy village. That is special. Even if its not touring the world.

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#1361440 - 01/30/10 05:36 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: joe80]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: joe80
.... incidentally the other Andorran twin did have something special. He founded an orchestra. He brought the Bach double concerto to your sleepy village. That is special. Even if its not touring the world.


Agreed.

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#1361441 - 01/30/10 05:42 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: joe80]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: joe80


Obviously there is talent, but nobody, no matter how talented, ever achieved any level of success without hard work. So, you may have God-given talent, but what use is it unless you work it?


Well, justly, I disagree. It is not at all obvious that there is talent, if what you mean is something inborn. What appears as obvious often hides the true explanation of a phenomenon.

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#1361443 - 01/30/10 05:49 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: RogerW]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: RogerW
In most cases I think it's about IQ, or whatever way you wish to use to measure intelligence.

If you for example take two seven years old beginners, one of which immediately understands the logic of the musical staff and how the position of the notes there relates to the position on the keyboard, the other student just doesn't get this.


I don't fully understand your post, Roger.

This sort of intelligence comparaison is very shallow. But perhaps that was your point.

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#1361478 - 01/30/10 07:48 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: landorrano]
RogerW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: RogerW
In most cases I think it's about IQ, or whatever way you wish to use to measure intelligence.

If you for example take two seven years old beginners, one of which immediately understands the logic of the musical staff and how the position of the notes there relates to the position on the keyboard, the other student just doesn't get this.


I don't fully understand your post, Roger.

This sort of intelligence comparaison is very shallow. But perhaps that was your point.

Yes, it can of course not be seen as some kind of complete reliable measurment of the two children's universal intelligence. It was only an example to show how an ability very remotely related to music can lead us to believe that one person has great "musical talent".

As such, I do believe that intelligence (or actually metacognition) do play an important part in how "talented" we are and how fast we learn. Without doubt, we all have different cognitive abilities. But since I'm no expert on cognitive science I'm not going to speculate in wether these differences are caused mainly by pre- or post birth events or if they are given to us by God or any other deity. I also believe that this intelligence is never specifically suitable for only one task (except in some very rare cases of autistic savants). A highly intelligent person has the potenital to be "talented" in many different fields, depending on where he focuses his efforts.

So to return to the somewhat silly statement on page one: "A genuine musician will spend his or her time play the musical instrument, only those who do not have enough talent will do other thing in music." I could just as well say that those with enough talent can do whatever they wish, those who do not have enough talent are stuck doing the only one thing they have learned. This of course can also be a problem for the gifted people. Quoting the paper posted by ChopinAddict on page two:

Quote:
A second adjustment problem faced by all gifted persons is due to their uncommon versatility. Hollingworth says:

Another problem of development with reference to occupation grows out of the versatility of these children. So far from being one-sided in ability and interest, they are typically capable of so many different kinds of success that they may have difficulty in confining themselves to a reasonable number of enterprises. Some of them are lost to usefulness through spreading their available time and energy over such a wide array of projects that nothing can be finished or done perfectly. After all, time and space are limited for the gifted as for others, and the life-span is probably not much longer for them than for others. A choice must be made among the numerous possibilities, since modern life calls for specialization.

This was not a problem back in Leonardo da Vinci's days when relative expertise in most subjects could be reached with much lower effort and universal geniuses could flourish in several fields during their lifetime.

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#1362572 - 01/31/10 07:41 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: Nikolas]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1483
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Put it this way, at the same age when Nikolas finished his PhD in music, I bet Barenboim did not have the same musical knowledge as Nikolas, in terms theory, history etc, etc. A genuine musician will spend his or her time play the musical instrument, only those who do not have enough talent will do other thing in music.
The first thing is talent....like what Horowitz said.
WOW!

Why on earth do I get myself put into such positions?!?!?!

1. I have no idea why the comparison with Barenboim came.
2. Your argument is silly to begin with. Are you saying that only performers have 'talent', but the rest do not? So.. Boulez, Stravinsky, Ligetti and other composers (who as far I know were not proficient in any instrument) are 'talentless pricks' who became composers cause they didn't know how to play any instrument?!?!?! laugh
3. Your argument is even more silly with the whole comparison with Barenboim:
If we had the same parents
the same country
the absolutely same education
the same teachers
and the very very same education, we could argue. Otherwise no point really in even trying.

Geez...

So now I'm not a 'genuiune musician', and I have no talent, thus I turned to composition!

Well done mate! laugh


Composer and Musician are two different things! We are talking about performance talent not compositon talent. People start as a musician. In general, if they cannot make it as a performer, they go to composition. It does not mean if you are not a good musician, you are also not a good composer. Again, it is in general!

My point is that every human has his or her own specific talent, and it is normal to pursue the goal where he or she can do the best or the easiest for him/her.

Nikolas, why can you just acknowledge that your performance ability is not up to the par of real professional musicians. Wasn't it the reason that you chose composition instead of performance?



Edited by RonaldSteinway (01/31/10 07:46 PM)

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#1362575 - 01/31/10 07:47 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Composer and Musician are two different things! People start as a musician. In general, if they cannot make it as a performer, they go to composition or conducting. Again, it is in general!

Wow, it's sure a shame that Liszt, Chopin and Paganini weren't good enough performers that they took to composing! From whom are you drawing these generalities? They don't make sense to me. confused

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#1362623 - 01/31/10 08:33 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway



Nikolas, why can you just acknowledge that your performance ability is not up to the par of real professional musicians. Wasn't it the reason that you chose composition instead of performance?



Wow!
And you, Ronald, why is it that I can't walk into Border's Music and find your latest release on Deutsche Grammophone? I seem to have trouble finding it.
Thank God, as Frozenicicles, above stated, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, Liszt, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms and a host of others all sucked at performing, or we wouldn't have the great music from them that we have. I do wonder if any of the composers I've listed would feel there to be a difference between composer/musician.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1362649 - 01/31/10 09:09 PM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: stores]
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Hi, I just zipped in here for a few mins and this post caught my eye and I'd like to comment on one specific thought being tossed around here.

RonaldSteinway, you said:

"In general, if they cannot make it as a performer, they go to composition. It does not mean if you are not a good musician, you are also not a good composer."

Are you saying pianists who can't make it as a performer just do a double take and turn to composing instead? The way you express this makes it sound as though composing is a second rate endeavor; which it most certainly is not. (not sure that was your intention). The implication is that every pianist has the ambition and desire and talent to compose?

I believe performing and composing are two very different things and not easily interchangeable. There are plenty of pianists who are excellent performers who just don't have the Spark, whatever you want to call it, to compose music; just as there are plenty of composers who are more interested in composing than performing.

RonaldSteinway, you also said:

"Nikolas, why can you just acknowledge that your performance ability is not up to the par of real professional musicians. Wasn't it the reason that you chose composition instead of performance?"

So the implication is there is no one who would rather compose than perform?!

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
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#1362813 - 02/01/10 12:23 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5245
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Composer and Musician are two different things! We are talking about performance talent not compositon talent. People start as a musician. In general, if they cannot make it as a performer, they go to composition. It does not mean if you are not a good musician, you are also not a good composer. Again, it is in general!

My point is that every human has his or her own specific talent, and it is normal to pursue the goal where he or she can do the best or the easiest for him/her.

Nikolas, why can you just acknowledge that your performance ability is not up to the par of real professional musicians. Wasn't it the reason that you chose composition instead of performance?
Honestly this is hillarious!

First of and very important: Quit making assumptions about me and personal comments, right? It's quite rude!

Second, who said we are talking about performance talent and not talent in general? Even athletics have been mentioned here (or was it the other thread talented vs professional artists?).

Thirdly your general comment couldn't be further from any common sense truth at all: "In general people go into composition because they can't make it as performers". So... by your idea, composers start at the age of 21 or so, after they are certain they cannot make it as performers. Also your idea seems to imply that because one didn't make it in math he went into chemistry! both are science. Sincerely your comments are absurd!

You are perfectly right: Every one is different for various reasons and various experiences, and all these together (throw a little magic dust into it), makes one person a composer, the other a performer, the third a builder and so on...

Finally, you've got to be kidding me here: You have read my mind, my life, my everything and have decided that the course of my life has been such only because I couldn't make it as a performer?!?!?! Why on earth does anyone care about this? And in addition I find it quite insulting to even insinuate that I just became a composer, because of a lost chance in performance.

Sorry mate, but you don't know me, you have no idea the struggles I've been through to become a composer, the problems, the chassing, the everything and the dedication I've shown, because... well this is what I've (almost) always wanted to be.

Do keep in mind that something I've said in the past like "I started composing because I prefered my own pieces rather than those given to me by a teacher" is not what we are talking about!

So get real, quit insulting me and quit bothering yourself with my life.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1363001 - 02/01/10 07:13 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: Nikolas]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13776
Loc: Iowa City, IA
This thread has been reported, and I would like to remind everyone that it's forum policy not to make disparaging remarks about other members.

Please discuss the topic, not each other.

Thanks.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1363005 - 02/01/10 07:19 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
This thread has been reported,
In that case someone's crying wolf.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1363097 - 02/01/10 10:07 AM Re: What is talent and how do you measure it? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
People start as a musician. In general, if they cannot make it as a performer, they go to composition.


I sincerely hope you think Rachmaninoff was an exception =)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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