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#1404136 - 03/26/10 09:33 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8376
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
kawaian, I was actually referring to MIDI files stored on the USB device, rather than data received from from MIDI-IN.

Indeed, I haven't actually tested the method that you're proposing - can you confirm whether or not this works?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1404169 - 03/26/10 10:24 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Kawai James]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Okay, understood!

I guess I misstated something in my former post: It's of course possible to record MIDI-In data, but it's not (yet) possible to convert a MIDI-File that is stored on an external USB device to MP3/WAV. Sorry for the confusion! What you've stated in your last post is 100% correct!
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<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1404199 - 03/26/10 11:20 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Isnt it possible to load the MIDI into the recorder and then render it?

I believe it is understandable, if it cannot read and write 2 files from and to the USB stick at the same time.

I personally would not think that is a problem that needs fixing. It should also be possible to play the MIDI with PC software and route the MIDI stream to the piano...

Edit:
Ok, string resonance will probably missing in that case.

I never understood this and I was shocked when I discovered it with my CP136. I would not have been surprised to see something like this on a cheapo Taiwan noname product..
But obviously all Kawais suffer from this.


Edited by hpeterh (03/26/10 11:36 AM)
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#1406339 - 03/29/10 02:00 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: hpeterh]
worov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 109
Loc: Paris
Does anyone know when the Kawai CA-63 and CA-93 will be available in France ? I'm from Paris and I haven't tried those instruments yet. James, are you aware of a release date ?


Edited by worov (03/29/10 02:01 PM)

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#1406374 - 03/29/10 02:43 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: worov]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
You are going to have to put in some real personal effort if you want to audition the Kawai dps in Western Europe.
Kawai has some of the worst retail distribution in the industry.
There are places that sell them already in France if you look hard enough.
The problem is finding a place that stocks them so you can audition one.


http://www.musicpromusic.com/boutique/in...=1&Itemid=1
http://www.francepianos.com/pn/kawai_ca63.htm
http://www.thomann.de/fr/kawai_ca63_r.htm

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#1406605 - 03/29/10 07:54 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8376
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
worov, the official distributor for KAWAI acoustic and digital pianos throughout France is Hohner SA. If you wish to play-test the new CA93/CA63 models in Paris, my recommendation would be to contact Hohner to enquire about availability at your local dealer.

http://www.kawaifr.com/contact.asp

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1407563 - 03/31/10 03:05 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Kawai James]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Here's my Top 3 (or should I say 7) for playing at moderate to high volumes (no headphones):

1. Yamaha AvantGrand / Kawai CA 93
2. Yamaha CVP 409 / CVP 509 (slightly changed, a bit bright?)
3. Kawai CA 63 / Yamaha CLP 380 / Roland HP 307

Motivation:
The combination of action and sound is just great on the CA63 up to moderate volumes! For higher volumes and for getting a real experience, I definitely prefer the soundboard system of the CA93, so I ordered one which will arrive shortly.

Actually, based on the technical specifications (or should I say marketing material), I originally wanted to buy a Roland HP 307, but I was very disappointed after testdriving it for about one and a half hour. The speaker system is not balanced properly; it does have a heavy bass, but the higher frequencies sound extremely harsh and digital (yes, I've read topics on this forum about this). After going through all the settings myself, trying to get it right, I asked for the guy at the music store to assist, but the result was still quite unsatisfactory to my ears. The samples are way too clean to be realistic. For reference, I then tried several Yamaha DP's including the CLP 380, but in the end I only found the CVP 409(/509) acceptable for quality (not for price, too expensive). I didn't get to play one of the AvantGrand models live, but based on what I heard and saw before, I wanted to list them here anyway (price is way out of my league).

Have fun playing your DP!
Arjan


Edited by Arjan (03/31/10 03:42 AM)
Edit Reason: typo corrected
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#1407567 - 03/31/10 03:36 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Interesting.

I am familiar with the Kawai Anytime silent system for acoustics but remain unconvinced compared to the Yamaha factory silent. Am also familiar with Yamaha's AvantGrand digital pianos with the four-channel acoustic space sampling, the multiple speaker system, the transducer and soundboard resonator system and tactile response system transferring realistic vibrations to the player and using its authentic, real grand piano action based on an actual C3 functional grand piano action. Do you mean the AvantGrand?

I would be very interested to actually audition a CA93 side by side with an AvantGrand to experience the effect you refer to leading you to rate them at the same level in your evaluation for play through the internal speaker system. Kawai must have made some serious improvements to their system from the old CA91 to today's CA93 model!

Can anyone contrast the CA93 with the previous CA91 for us here?

Arjan, don't forget to update this thread: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1406280/18.html
And keep us up to date with your ownership experience of Kawai's much anticipated top of the line model!~

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#1407580 - 03/31/10 04:07 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: theJourney
I would be very interested to actually audition a CA93 side by side with an AvantGrand to experience the effect you refer to leading you to rate them at the same level in your evaluation for play through the internal speaker system.


I just used your Top 3 template, but as mentioned it is actually a Top 7. By the way, is it true that Kawai licensed their soundboard technology to Yamaha?
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#1407583 - 03/31/10 04:21 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Arjan
Originally Posted By: theJourney
I would be very interested to actually audition a CA93 side by side with an AvantGrand to experience the effect you refer to leading you to rate them at the same level in your evaluation for play through the internal speaker system.


I just used your Top 3 template, but as mentioned it is actually a Top 7. By the way, is it true that Kawai licensed their soundboard technology to Yamaha?


I don't know, but I would like to know.
Do you have a link you could share?
They were after all the first to do so.
The plot thickens?

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#1407600 - 03/31/10 05:18 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Here are some Kawai soundboard technology related patents: nr 7459615, US20070289428 & US20080127798 (documents can be viewed with patents.com, freepatentsonline or a similar website).
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#1409919 - 04/03/10 09:00 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
worov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 109
Loc: Paris
I have found a store in Paris for CA-63. No CA-93 yet. I'm going to try it next Tuesday or Thursday. Here's the website of the store :

http://www.centre-chopin.com/fiches-numerique.php?$=25

Thank you for your answer, James.


Edited by worov (04/03/10 09:05 AM)

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#1409959 - 04/03/10 10:39 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: worov]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Keep us up to date on how your search and auditioning goes!

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#1414401 - 04/09/10 06:22 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
Technocube Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 5
Hi there. I'm new to the digital piano world. I am used to playing a grand (Yahama C3) but I need a silent digital (ie headphoned) for evening practise. Not overly concerned about the sound since I do have an acoustic - it's all about the action. My question is:Which models of digital pianos use an actual hammer action using a gravity return hammer as in my grand? I know the Kawai CA93/63 do, as do the Yamaha AvantGrand. Are there any other makes? Do Roland do one (does the HP307 use an actual gravity return hammer?). My budget is $5000 for a digital instrument that closest emulates the action of my C3 grand (I can't afford the AvantGrand) - no opinons please , just scientific facts :-) ie key length, hammer weight, repetition. Thanks very much

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#1414539 - 04/09/10 09:48 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Technocube]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Maybe you can look for an old Yamaha Disclavier GranTouch models like the GT1 or GT2. I've seen a few used one for sale around your budget price. They do have the traditional grand action with the hammer heads and everything, so they should feel pretty real.

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#1414567 - 04/09/10 10:43 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Volusiano]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2100
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I think that you'd be hard pressed to find a dedicated digital piano that is currently selling that does NOT have a "gravity return" hammer action these days. The one that comes to mind that does not have a hammer action is the Yamaha NP30, but this is a portable, lightweight piano that is NOTHING like the instruments you would be considering.

Yes, it's my understanding that the HP307 has a "gravity return" hammer action. Something that sets this one apart from most other Rolands is that it has repetition lever simulation, by virtue of the triple-sensor action. (PHAIII) The only other Roland with this identical action is the V-Piano. There are other Rolands with a very similar (if not identical?) feel but without the repetition lever function. (this is the PHAII action)

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (04/09/10 10:44 PM)

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#1414701 - 04/10/10 10:10 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
I then tried several Yamaha DP's including the CLP 380, but in the end I only found the CVP 409(/509) acceptable for quality (not for price, too expensive).


I'm curious - what makes CVP509 better than CLP380, can you describe? Because the specs are the same.
_________________________
ex-Yamaha CLP 330

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#1414760 - 04/10/10 12:57 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: bkmz]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Taken from the spec. sheet of Yamaha, here you can see the similarities and differences with respect to the speaker set-up:

CVP 409 Amplifiers and Speakers
Amplifiers 60W x 2 + 20W x 2
Speakers (16cm + 5cm + 3cm (dome)) x 2 + 10cm x 2

CLP380 Amplifiers and Speakers
Amplifiers 35W x 2 + 20W x 2 + 20W x 2 + 12W x 2
Speakers 16cm x 2, 2.5cm (DOME) x 2, 8cm x 4

CVP509 Amplifiers and Speakers
Amplifiers (35W + 20W + 20W) x 2 + 20W x 2
Speakers (16cm + 5cm + 3cm (dome)) x 2 + 10cm x 2 [(6 5/16" + 1 15/16" +1 3/16" (dome) x 2 + 3 15/16" x 2]

Actually, I even slightly preferred (subjective) the piano sound of the CVP409 over the CVP509 (a little too bright, maybe the settings were different in the music store?), although the technical specs. of the latter appear to be better...
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#1414811 - 04/10/10 02:28 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: TADutchman

Actually, I even slightly preferred (subjective) the piano sound of the CVP409 over the CVP509 (a little too bright, maybe the settings were different in the music store?)


The first thing you should ALWAYS do when auditioning a DP or keyboard in a music store is do a factory reset. (Download the manual ahead of time, and go armed with the instructions of how to do this). It typically is just a few button presses.

I can't believe how many folks get the wrong impression of an instrument, because it has been left 'messed up' by a previous user.

Lawrence
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1414872 - 04/10/10 04:57 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Melodialworks Music]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
That's right in case you know on forehand what DP models you get to try out.

Factory settings can have a different effect of course in case of differences in samples, amplifier and speakers between models -> better use headphones first to eliminate some of these variables.
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#1415632 - 04/12/10 03:42 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
worov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 109
Loc: Paris
I have been to this piano dealer :
http://www.centre-chopin.com/fiches-numerique.php?$=25.

The website mentions CA-63. So I went to the store to try it. The dealer told : "We don't have now. It will be here in the next two weeks.

The dealer told me that CA-93 will not be available. He doesn't think there is so much difference between the two models.

However I tried the Roland HP307. The sound is good. However I'm disppointed with the touch. Not heavy enough for me. It doesn't feel realistic to me. To me, the keyboard is more important than the sound (though I can agree this is a very personnal statement).


I'll come back later to tell about my impressions for the CA-63.

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#1474046 - 07/14/10 09:11 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
dim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 36
Loc: Indonesia
so which is better? CA93, HP307 or CLP380??
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Yamaha U3 PE
Roland RD-170

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#1474052 - 07/14/10 09:30 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: dim]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
That highly depends on who you talk with!

I'm quoting myself here: wink
"Just pick the one that's best according to your own ears and fingers (at the music store you could let them adjust touch settings and piano sound according to your preferences).

Be sure to use both the in-built speakers (at moderate to high volumes) and your own headphones."
_________________________
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#1523148 - 09/26/10 04:43 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
franz_liszt82 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 3
Hi worov. So, did you buy the ca 63? Do you like it?

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#1526580 - 10/01/10 11:09 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: dim]
FishTako Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 14
Loc: California, USA
Nothing beats spending a few hours on each to make a proper comparison.

Over the last 2 weeks I've spend nearly 15 hours playing on the following at 5 separate dealers:

V-piano, HP 307, CP-1, CP 308, AvantGrand N-3, YU5 Silent Piano, CA-93, CA-63.

After much consideration, I'm torn between the CA-93 and the HP-307 and here's my overall impression on both. The CP 380 fell out of consideration (I couldn't find a dealer that had the CP380/370 in stock but I played on both a CP-1 and a CP308 (has the same key action so I'm told). I dislike the action on both.

CA-93 / CA-63
Pros:
It has in my opinion the best action in 3-4k price range and allows for extreme control in terms of dynamic range. It was able to capture many subtle variations of pianissimo. They were a joy to play. You'll likely want to set the Touch to Heavy. The default setting of Normal touch didn't quite feel right to me.

While there seems to be some debate on whether the soundboard contributes to the sound quality of this instrument, I can say the CA-93 sounds very nice. When compared directly to the CA-63 at volume level 6+ on the Concert Grand the CA-93 feels much richer to me. The lower range in particular outperformed the CA-63. Whether this is a result of the soundboard or the placement of the speakers I really have no idea. With the headset, both instruments sound identical.

Cons:
Not all instruments are created equal. I played two different CA-63s and the sound on some of the upper range notes was very bell-like and harsh on the Concert Grand patch on one and much more mellow on the other. This occurred even after I had reset both to factory default settings. My only guess is that this may have to do with the action on a couple of the keys as I tested it playing slow scales across the affected notes and it seemed like they were a bit more sensitive than their neighbors. This was noticeable with or without headphones so it isn't a speaker thing.

Personally, I don't like the control console on the left. I prefer the more traditional layout with the controls easily reachable just above the keys.

2 Track record only? This might not sound like a big deal, but it does make a slight difference.

HP 307
Pros:
Default Grand Concert sounds better than both the CA-63 and CA-93 when wearing headphones. Specifically, I think the HP 307 sounds nicer in the high range.

The 307 sounds slightly richer than the CA-63 without headphones but I'd give the edge to the CA-93 when playing without headphones at volumes 6-7 (there is no contest when comparing notes in the low range CA-93 wins hands-down).

Texture of the keys is very nice to touch. Action is good but a bit on the 'bouncy' side.

More pronounced 'Escapement' feel than on the CA-93. I don't really care much for this feature but my mom, swears by it. She absolutely loves the escapement click.

Controller interface felt a bit more intuitive than the CAs and I prefer the top layout.

Cons:
Thumping. The keys really thump when you depress them. This is much less of an issue when playing with headphones.

Here are my overall rankings:

Key Action:
CA-93 9 out of 10
CA-63 8.9 out of 10 (.1 for lack of escapement)
HP 307 8 out of 10

Sound w/Headphones:
HP 307 7.5 out of 10
CA-93/CA-63 7 out of 10

Sound (built in speakers)
CA-93 8 out of 10
HP 307 7 out of 10
CA-63 6.5 out of 10

Interface:
HP 307 8 out of 10
CA-93/CA-63 6 out of 10

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#1526590 - 10/01/10 11:27 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8376
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
FishTako,

Thank you for posting your experiences - it's clear that you are torn between the HP-307 and CA93. However, without wishing to complicate matters further, have you considered the LX-10F (HP-307 with partially ebony polish cabinet and improved speakers)?

I do not know why two different CA63 instruments should not sound identical, especially after performing a factory reset - were you listening using headphones, or was this the speaker output?

Quote:
I played on both a CP-1 and a CP308 (has the same key action so I'm told). I dislike the action on both.


This is not quite correct. The CP1/CP5 utilise a new action called 'NW Stage', which is ungraded (all 88 keys are the same weight) and arguably geared towards electric piano playing. The CLPS-308 however does use the 'NW' keyboard action, which should be the same as the CLP370/CLP380.

Anyway, good luck finalising your decision! Both the Roland and Kawai are superb digital pianos, so I'm confident that you will be very happy with either instrument.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1526643 - 10/02/10 03:23 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: FishTako]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: FishTako

Sound w/Headphones:
HP 307 7.5 out of 10
CA-93/CA-63 7 out of 10

Sound (built in speakers)
CA-93 8 out of 10
HP 307 7 out of 10
CA-63 6.5 out of 10

Hi FishTako,
I respect your personal comparison, opinion and preferences related to the factory Concert Grand sounds in single voice mode. whistle

Now, based on this, let's take the next step in boosting sound quality and dynamics by entering the advanced dual voice mode for acoustic piano voices (CA93/CA63 only): cool

'Enhancing the default settings of Kawai CA63 and CA93 digital piano'
http://www.attacca.eu/images/settings_CA63_93.pdf
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#1526781 - 10/02/10 11:41 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4266
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
... let's take the next step in boosting sound quality and dynamics by entering the advanced dual voice mode ...

Lightspeed is too slow, we're going to have to go right to Ludicrous Speed!

_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1526791 - 10/02/10 11:54 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Melodialworks Music]
LarryShone Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 644
Loc: Darlington, UK
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music


The first thing you should ALWAYS do when auditioning a DP or keyboard in a music store is do a factory reset. (Download the manual ahead of time, and go armed with the instructions of how to do this). It typically is just a few button presses.

I can't believe how many folks get the wrong impression of an instrument, because it has been left 'messed up' by a previous user.

Lawrence

Thats an interesting point, and something I would never have thought of! But I wonder how the owner of the music shop in the town would feel if I asked if I could do a Factory Reset on one of their keyboards!


Edited by LarryShone (10/02/10 11:55 AM)
_________________________
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Yamaha PSR225-I NEED A PIANO wink

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#1526814 - 10/02/10 12:20 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: LarryShone]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4266
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: LarryShone
... I wonder how the owner of the music shop in the town would feel if I asked if I could do a Factory Reset on one of their keyboards!

I wouldn't ask in the first place. And if they thought about it at all they'd probably thank you for doing so - all the random button pressing going on can leave them in weird states, and confuse people who are demoing them.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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