Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread

jbx, did you notice on your HP-307 that D above middle C is clicking? Someone said it on this forum. Please let us know.

T'was I that said the key was clicking...and, actually, the action itself felt a bit looser than I expected, but considering the instrument I played was a demo model, it might have seen a tad more than normal use.

Still, not exactly confidence inspiring.

The "Ivory" keys are too rough for my liking (again, a personal view)...they feel nothing like an actual piano key...certainly nothing like the keys on my Steinway.

Perhaps my expectations were too high, but I wasn't overly impressed with the HP-307.

Snazzy

The one I tried had actually visible roughness on black keys and I didn't like that. I think I'll have to go back and check on that D because I know it will make me crazy if I find later it's clicking.

Actually, in the past the Kawai's were the ones with a reputation for loosy-goosiness. The Rolands were the ones with the reputation for the ivory coating wearing off in the first year. The Yamahas seem to be the brand that consistently has the most reliable and solid build quality.

Has anyone paid attention to the relative amount of clickity clackity sound produced by the instrument when being played silently with headphones? There were discussions in the past of the Roland design becoming noisier with age.

The RM3 within CA63 has no clickity clackity at all, it's very silent. I cannot state anything about reliability, it's just out for roughly a month.

i understand the "Wright Brothers in the garage" concept of innovation, but considering the expense to develop and relative small market for something like this, it is hard to imagine two guys in a garage saying "hey let's develop a new piano" let alone venture capital being invested. my point was simply that those "large manufacturers" (like them or not, want to work there or not) are the ones with a vested interest in the future of pianos. Japanese companies, for their size, are notoriously innovative and flexible. but what the manufacturers of digital pianos are NOT a part of (save Yamaha of course) is being part of the tradition of the making of an acoustic pianos.

and anyway, it's all a pipe dream. I doubt well see anything like this unless the acoustic manufacturers see some benefit to add some sort of digital aspect.

btw, if all inovation has ground to a halt, it is hard to understand where all the digital pianos have come from in the first place.

I saw some old video footage recently, I believe it was of Dave Smith of Sequential Circuits. He said that, with microprocessors readily available, there was no reason not to have a self-calibrating polyphonic analog synth on the market. He assumed the big guys had to be aware of that too, it was such an obvious and natural conclusion to come to if you worked in the field, and so it was just a matter of time before one would hit the market. He waited years before coming to the realization that no one was going to do it. So he did it, and the Prophet 5 was born, and it was quite a success.

Digital pianos have only very slowly and incrementally evolved from the first Kurzweil K250 in 1984, and I would argue that the lion's share of those changes are attributable to Moore's law than anything else. I think the V-Piano was in response to Pianoteq, otherwise that product would likely have never materialized. PC samplers and modelers have shown anyone who wants to look that it is entirely possible to improve the DP immensely. Yet no manufacturer is stepping up to the plate. If people are still willing and able to pay $5k for a $1 sample set, why should they? If I made DPs and my focus was primarily on profits, I wouldn't be looking that gift horse in the mouth either.

That is not the case with my HP-307, at least: all keys make a slight clicking noise (for clarity: not in the digital sound, but the action itself is making some slight clicking noise). I noticed that this clicking noise differs somewhat from key-to-key, but not much and the D above middle C is not louder than others on my DP.
I think this click is either from the extra sensor or the let-off simulation mechanism in the action. I do not find it disturbing. It is certainly softer than the mechanical noise that you hear when the key hits its bottom and/or the hammer of the action mechanism reaches its end point (I don't know if these are the correct English words).
I find the noise of the keyboard a little disturbing when playing on low volume. If the volume is on a level comparable to that of an acoustic, I do not notice it anymore. With my closed headphones on a reasonable volume I do not notice it either. My wife does, but it does not disturb her, but I can imagine it would disturb others a little.
I don't remember if the noise of the HP-307 action is louder than that of Kawai or Yamaha, but I am sure the difference is not very big. I also remembered that I found it comparable to the noise of the action of an acoustic: I tried a Yamaha silent piano with the volume set to zero to compare.

Jbx, thanks for your reply.

By the same token, the CP line, especially the CP1 seems to be in response to the VPiano. The fact that there is such a huge gap between the announcement and the actual ability to audition or buy one for most people is indicative on a consumer products marketing strategy to try to freeze sales of a competitors product while you desperately play catchup.

Just 2 cents, I've been able to compare some DP's yesterday and this afternoon. I specifically tested, with headphones, for looping, stretching, note decay, similarness of sound over the whole range, presence of string resonance, 'sustain test'. While the stretching is very audible in the files proposed in other threads, I found it hard to detect when playing myself. Looping however is obvious, now that I know what to search for.

1) CLP380 sounds outdated now. Very audible looping. Nice string resonance. Couldn't really hear the added value of another sample layer. Succeeds the 'sustain test'. Nice keyboard, but I'm not accomplished enough to feel the finesses of the differences between the keys. It felt lighter than the Rolands, and they have of course the escapement. Might be 'saved' by the sound system (from memory, as I played with headphones yesterday).

2) Kawais: can't comment as not available in the Netherlands.

3) HP307: really a step forward sound-wise. No audible looping, nice decay, string resonance very natural. Succeeds the sustain test (most Rolands didn't until now, most Yamahas did). However, the mid-range feels a bit flat and poor (others have described this better). From G6 onwards, there's a metallic 'twang' / quality to the sound, the transition from F6 is very audible. Sounds a bit strange, but could be something inherited from AP's.

4) Other DP's I briefly played (top-of-the-line):
- CP1: some disappointment after all the raves here, at least concerning the main AP sound (didn't play the other sounds / EPs). Overall very nice sound, very equal about the whole spectrum, nice and easy keyboard feel. But: no string resonance, fails the sustain test, even the lightest + softest touch invariably produces a sound (but it shouldn't).
- Avant Grand N3: only had a very brief impression (it's way out of my price range). Seemed to be the overall winner, extremely good key touch + sounds. But I also like the versatility of a DP - being able to play harpsichords, church organs, EP's etc. is one of my reasons to buy one!
- RD700GX with the SuperNatural extension: very similar to HP307, but more (great) piano sounds. No audible looping, nice string resonance etc. Same problems with the mid-range however, plus the change in sound from G6 onwards (applies to all the new sounds). Succeeds the sustain test. Overall a great step forward over the stock sounds. I’ll probably have this one built into an AP cabinet, with a nice speaker system. There’s a shop here in the Netherlands that specialized on that (see my digitalclassic.nl thread). The price tag is elevated (around 5000 Euro if the extension is included), but it’s really tempting as they build a really good speaker system in a really nice cabinet.

Just my opinions…

Nachtschatten, I get a strong feeling of "hidden' adversitement" from reading your posts. You subtly drop that company's name quite often and your posts feel heavily biased.

Maybe I'm wrong and I apologize if I am

Just my opinion.

@CruelStrings, what kind of comment is that? Please bring up some own experiences rather than doubt others objectivity. Everyone is somehow biased by the way...

Hi cruelstrings,

no affiliation with any company / brand / shop whatsoever. Just my, probably very subjective, opinions. From which I make my, probably very subjective, conclusions. I'm far from being an accomplished piano player, others here can detect much more subtle things than I can. I just want to learn from these forums, like probably many others, and make a, hopefully well-informed, buying decision. If I can add some comments here or there...
Yes, at this moment I'm probably leaning towards Roland. As others do towards Yamaha or Kawai, or other brands. As I said, I'd rather have liked to go with a Yamaha, as they have excellent reputation, have a long line of Clavinova success, and are the only ones that don't seem to have quality problems. But I think I’ve made my (own, subjective, …) reasons quite clear.
No, I'm not affiliated with the 'DigitalClassic.nl' shop. Just a potential future, yet still undecided, customer. What else can I say? If you have the time, read all my posts (it’s not that much yet), and tell me where I could have been more objective / unbiased / …

But thanks for asking

It’s nice to see how self-regulating 99% of these threads are, thanks kawaian. And if there’s ranting or worse going on, there are always some who put things back on track – which is one of the reasons why I like these forums so much.

I am happy to report I have finally made my decision and will update the Prices Paid thread after this post.

I’m not an experienced pianist yet so my inputs here will just be what and how I feel. Sorry I can’t explain them in technical or musical terms like most of you do, I’ll just state how I feel in common language.

I visited 3 different dealers today. One has the CA93, one has the CLP380, and one has the HP-307.

I really like the keyboard of the CA93. As I go back and forward between a Kawai grand and this one, the CA93 feels almost as a grand. Sound wise, not so great. Like I said, I don’t know what it is but it doesn’t give me that wow feeling. So if you’re into gadgets and all that hooking your DP up to a computer and use software, in my opinion, this is the one to get.

The CLP-380 sounds the best to my ears, again, I can’t detect stretching or looping as my ears aren’t well-trained. I just play and listen to how it sounds, and I must say I really like Yamaha main Piano sound on the CLP-380. Its key action is a little bouncy to my taste, and as a student, key action is the most important to me. Compare to the CA93, I must say if I rate from 1-10, the CA93 gets an 8 compare to a grand but the CLP-380 only about 5 or at best 6 key action wise. Again, this is just my own personal touch and feel.

The HP-307 key action gets about 6 or 7 to me but its Grand Piano sounds better than the CA93 to my ears. I only play Grand Piano sound, not any other sound. I keep going back and forth between the HP-307 and a Schimmel grand and it doesn’t feel quite right but I like it better than the CLP380 action. I think PHA III keys are a bit shallower than the other two. By shallow I mean its distance from rest position to bottom is shorter. Maybe it’s just me I just wish it’s a little deep like the other 2 would be great. Though it’s a bit shallower to my fingers, it scores somewhere in between the CLP & the CA. Grand Piano sound is very good to my ears, though I still like the Grand Piano of the CLP380 better.

In the end, I decided the HP-307 is my DP for the foreseeable future and made the purchase.

This thread is great. Thanks all. Hopefully I’ll be happy with this one for a while. I’d really go for the CLP380 if they make its key action like the CA or even the HP despite its cost, $4,700 for a Polished Mahogany, ouch I’m sure these key actions will improve one day and I’ll have that itch to upgrade but for now, I really hope I’ll be happy with this HP-307 for several years.

Best,
Nguyen

Thanks for your heads up and your impressions! Sounds like a good compromise between the good sound of the clp-380 and the great keyboard action of the ca-63. All the best for your piano studies!

I found the link to the sustain test, thanks theJourney (and kudos to jscomposer):

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/703018/1.html

Sorry! Did not mean to offend you. My internal brain SPAM algorithm is off center haha.
Thanks for sharing and rock on!

Thanks kawaian. You know I really like the CA93 action. It has the same action as your CA63 but with an impressive soundboard. I think you hit a jackpot with your DP. I didn't get it because I am not into hooking or computerize it at all. If I'm like you, or ChrisA or Dewster or anyone good with computer and pianoteq, then I'd be a proud onwer of the CA93 now. It's a no brainer key action wise to me.

I see this mentioned often. A few weeks ago I did some Googling for shops in The Netherlands that have the CA63 and I found some. To help others, I mention them here, it is not an attempt to spam, I have no affiliation with any of them!

Note: probably there are more shops that have them and maybe not all of them have them, always phone before traveling!!!

http://muziekhuisdera.nl/ has both the CA63 and CA93 on display in Heerlen (close to train station) and also recent Yamaha and Rolands I think.

http://www.pianos-vleugels.nl/ has the CA63 on display in Eindhoven.

http://www.vanurk.nl/ has the CA63 on display in Rotterdam (close to central train station), but has no recent Yamaha or Rolands.

A few others that said they would have them shortly or already had them but not displayed yet. They have them ready maybe now:
http://www.vanoldenielpiano.nl/ in Deventer will probably have the CA63 now, call them first!

http://www.vriese.nl/ maybe has the CA63 in Doetinchem, but not sure.