Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread

Heerlen and Doetinchem are indeed both about 3 hour, $75 train trips from Amsterdam on the German border and these stores seem to be serving the German market as much as the Dutch one. They are the only stores with the ability to compare the Roland and Yamaha products. Those living in the Randstad will just have to spend a day shopping if they want to audition Kawai.

The others listed either have websites that do not work, or very poor reputations or do not have the Kawais actually on display or in stock: the kind of dealers that Kawai unfortunately has been known for here in the past...

Still, there's quite a big difference between 'not available locally' and 'not available anywhere in the country'.

Kind regards,
James
x

Don't know if anyone was claiming that they were not available anywhere at all somewhere in the country.

However, for the 7.7 million people living in the Randstad, taking a three hour, $75 train trip to audition a piano next to Roland and Yamaha that most have never heard of and that is not advertised or promoted, the difference between "not available anywhere in the country" and "not available anywhere relevant" is very small indeed...

Don't believe me, though, look at your internal sales numbers and warranty cards statistics. Read 'em and weep.

I agree it is a shame that there is no store in Amsterdam or Utrecht that has a line-up of Yamaha, Roland and Kawai, but I do not entirely agree with your reply. Van Urk in Rotterdam is a very reputable store. From Amsterdam it is a 1 hour, euro 25 train trip. Indeed, they don't have the top models of Roland and Yamaha on display, but it is a reasonable way to try the CA63. Probably there is some other store in Rotterdam that has the Roland and Yamaha, I don't know about that... not an ideal situation, but better than nothing at all I think.

Both Rotterdam and Eindhoven have the CA63 actually on display, confirmed by phone.

I believe Nachtschatten claimed that KAWAI DPs were not available in the Netherlands.


Ah yes, there we go.

jbx, thank you for clarifying the situation.

Kind regards,
James
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Fair enough, I appreciate this information.

However, based on reputation, I would not buy one from van Urk in Rotterdam, but that does look like the fastest way to audition one without the escapement feature even though you can't do any side by side comparison there -- which of course was the idea of this thread: the "official" playoff between Yamaha, Roland and Kawai's top cabinet style offerings (the CA93) including the Yamaha Avantgrand N2.

Very strange price information on the van Urk site, BTW.
Thomann.de shows the list price with Dutch VAT for the CA63 as euro 2290 and offers it for sale at euro 2168.
van Urk shows the list price with Dutch VAT for the CA63 as 2656 and offers it for sale at 2470.
Stores that don't stock these Kawai models are encouraging people to try them elsewhere and then will order them for you for about euro 2000.

Well I would say it's worth to "just" play the CA63: The is only little difference between those two models that really matters (at least for me):

- I don't care for escapement, I even tend to like it better without it
- Additional sounds are nothing to rave about
- Well, the soundboard is of course interesting if you intend to play a lot with loudspeakers. But for testing the quality of the internal sounds with a quality headphone is a good alternative

Good points, I agree.
Something tells me I will find an excuse to go to Rotterdam this week.

theJourney, once again, I believe I can sympathise with your situation: I desperately want to try the CP1, yet despite being manufactured in this city, it's not available for me to play-test locally! (I've visited the main Yamaha store in town, and cycled to all of the large malls in this area).

Cheers,
James
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I'm glad to see that they are available in some places. Looks like I haven't been looking enough. Also, in the local shops, the sales guys (at least in 2 shops) told me that Kawai had pulled out of the Dutch market. Still, it's not a very strong presence. And to see, e.g., a CA-111 quoted at > 5000Euro at one of the places, while it's available for ~4300 in Germany, doesn't help much either. This is of course before negotiation, but I don't have the impression that it's possible to get as large discounts here as, e.g., in the US.

Maybe Kawai should rethink their strategy for the Netherlands? DP's seem to sell very well here, many used DP's don't stay long on places like marktplaats.nl (except older ones). I'd definitely like to be able to compare all 3 big brands side by side.

The closest shop to me is van Urk in Rotterdam. I might give it a try (but have to find the time). Or if I drive to Wezep again, I might make it a round trip to the 2 other shops that are not too far from there. I don't know anything about the reputation of these shops. I've been to 4 in total here, the one in Nieuwegein and in Wezep seem good to me.

As I said, I've been able to (very briefly) play the CA-111 in Germany. However, at that time I had merely begun my search and could not compare as much as I can now. From memory, the action really felt good (as others have reported here). The concept with the soundboard is really convincing, and I like the hidden controls. I honestly don't remember how I found the sound at that time, and haven't tested for looping, sustain test, general playability etc. I like the Musik Schmidt video - it sounds great there. There's less choice of extra sounds than on other high end DP's and if I remember correctly, I didn't really like the harpsichord + organ sounds (a bit too artificial compared to the Yamahas and Rolands).

Please take my comments with the necessary grain of salt - I don't have a complete overview of the market situation, nor am I accomplished enough to detect all subtle differences between the DP's. And of course, I only report personal preferences.

@cruelstrings: no harm done, the 'spam' lights go on all too often on the web (much less on these forums, though), and rightly so - I sincerely hope no one on these forums buys (or doesn't!) a particular DP or brand based on a single opinion, rave review or heavy criticism.

Cheers

Nachtschatten, CA111 is old, the CA63 and CA93 have a new really inspiring piano sound, I like it very much, and I had the opportunity to test drive both CA51 (sound is the same as CA111) and the CA63. Also the RM3 is a real improvement over the already great keyboard action of CA111. Regarding the sustain test: Here Kawai still fails heavily, which I do not understand at all since it should be quite simple to get this done right.

These are the limitations / flaws I identified with CA63:

1) Crackling / polyphonic flaw
--> corrected in the most current firmware!

2) Sustain test failed!
--> This definitely needs to be fixed since I can hear it on some of my songs!

3) Volume of reverb effect not adjustable.
--> It would be very nice if the effect strength would be adjustable (like it is possible for the other effects like chorus, wahwah etc.)

4) It seems that damper resonance and string resonance is still not recorded when DP is played using external MIDI data
--> Needs to be fixed!

5) No silent keypress possible. There is always a sound produced even if you press down a key extremely soft
--> Should be fixed, although not such a big deal (for me)!

6) Key off samples are very subtle, and when you hear them (with setting 10/10), not very convincing
--> not a big deal, neglectible

7) String resonance is very nice, but after pressing about 10 keys (I didn't actually count the number) in a serial order to produce resonance, the production of a string resonance sound suddenly stops. You have to raise the key and press it down again so that resonance is again working
--> This is a more academic problem, since you would only in extreme songs press so many keys to produce string resonance. Neglectible

8) Another string resonance issue: The very high notes which are not dampered at all also produce string resonance when depressed. This is not like a real acoustic, because all of these high notes should be resonate when a key is pressed, because they are not dampered all the time
--> Nice to have, but neglectible

9) I don't know if this is possible , but this would be really great: The sustain time of all keys is too short, this should be at least 25-50% longer, that would be perfect! Even better would be to have a dedicated adjustment like "sustain length" that can be adjusted from 1-10 (whereas 5 is like current setting)
--> VERY nice to have!!

Other than that I really love my CA63, and I'm playing the piano with great joy!

To be honest, my information about their reputation is very outdated (several decades old!), so maybe you are right. However, I think, just to try the CA63, it doesn't really matter what their reputation is... you probably have already more knowledge about DPs then most salespersons and if you don't like their service, price or reputation, you just use them to audition the DP only and buy it somewhere else

kawaian, thank you for posting this list - some interesting suggestions there.

As noted previously, if you believe there are serious issues with the CA93/CA63 that need to be resolved, please feel free to send me a PM.

Kind regards,
James
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Is it normal to hear the Piano goes out of tuned then back in tuned with pedal down? Last night I was practicing and there’s a portion of the piece with G chord duration of 3 syncopated whole notes with pedal down. Well, when I struck the chord and pedal depressed, I could clearly hear the chord went out of tuned for a second or split second, then back into tuned. It bothered me for awhile but then I thought, maybe that’s how it is on an acoustic with strings?

I must say I’m inexperienced and have only practiced for almost a year on an old Viscount. I never heard this before on the Viscount. Is this how it is on an acoustic? Or is something not quite right with my DP?

I'm not the expert but I think this is how it works...

I think on an acoustic piano if the pedal is down and you play a C. Other strings will also ring, certainly the other Cs will, but I think any string that shares a harmonic overtone with the C you played will as well. As your C decays in sustain it become more "pure" with fewer overtones and therefore excites fewer unrelated notes.

So I think it is not in/out of tune but you hear at first many unrelated notes.

Also there is a slight effect on any stringed instrument that if you pluck, hammer, pick or strum a string you just have to increase the tension on it in order to play it. Then as it rings the tension goes back. You can really notice this effect on a guitar if you have an electronic tuner. But I doubt this is what you heard

It could also be due to voice overlapping with the sustain pedal down. In order to create the slight "swelling", and the subtle change of timbre between successive notes, it is probably allowing previously struck notes to continue to sound. So, it is, in effect, playing simultaneous recordings of the same note, played at different times. If the pitch of the notes changes over time (which can happen - I think the notes typically start off a bit sharp, and then fall in pitch - I think this is what Chris is saying), you will hear the slight "beating" between the different notes.

Obviously, this voice overlapping isn't completely authentic. However, it usually works very well IMHO. It is a very simple way for them to enhance the sound with the sustain pedal down.

If you depress the sustain pedal, and play just ONE chord, does it sound out of tune? If it sounds ok, I feel more confident that the problem is due to the above.

Greg.

As mentioned in another thread, the amount of sound coming from the keyboard and action when being played with headphones can be significant enough to keep people from sleeping or even to cause problems with downstairs neighbors.

It would be very useful to try to take the relative sound produced into account when evaluating different models, especially for those who are buying a digital for reasons of peace in the house.

Perhaps someone can find a store that is not crazy with noise and use a db(A) meter to measure the relative sound produced?

I know what you mean. But this is not necessarily about the noise level in the same room, but with resonances that go through walls and floors. I had my old masterkeyboard upstairs, and people wanted to sleep downstairs. When I played you could hear all the time this annoying "thumb, thumb thumb, thumb...". They could tell exactly what piece of music I was playing...

Is that when you gave up Prokofiev?

Good point, though.
This kind of "contact sound" can be reduced by de-coupling the piano from the floor with a raised platform on rubber.

Not sure how we could measure the degree to which a de-coupling already takes place in the relative construction of the instruments.