I have been following this forum for a number of months now, and one opinion that comes up again and again is that a portion of the population of pianos are junkers: not worth repairing or restoring. The reason being is that there is no economic logic to it or that the piano is unrepairable. I have no doubt that those conclusions are accurate in today's world. Granted, there are many abused and neglected piano thats are so far gone, there is nothing really left to restore.

The first question I ask is what about the future? 100 years from now, will people be lamenting over the destruction of 19th century mechanical wonders?

The next question that follows is what s the total population of older pianos? I mean pianos at least 75 or 100 years old. The next question is what is the attritipn rate, as pianos get sent to their final rewards.

Do we even know the magnitude of these numbers? Are there one million old pianos out there? Five million? Ten million? 200,000? I have no idea, does anyone?

So I ask, should we be concerned when someone acccesses Piano World Forums, asks about an old piano, and hears that it really isn't feasible to restore it, and maybe it should be converted into a table or desk or something? By inflicting capital punishment on these pianos, are we doing what will someday looked back at as an abomination?

Just some random thoughts on a Tuesday morning.

Your comments would be most appreciated. Thanks, Brian

An abomination? I don't think so.
Although I am a firm believer that everyone should take a trip to their local dump at least once a year if only to see how much the landscape has changed by the accumulation of human waste, an old piano is only an assortment of worn out wood and iron. Maybe in the (not so distant?) future, when fossil fuels are short and expensive, the old pianos could be recycled by fire for heat, but it is still some time off before the heat recieved is worth the burning of old pianos. In the mean time, but for the truly decorative units, the best answer for old worn out pianos is - unfortunatly - in the dump.
Out of site, out of mind.

one could burn the piano for heat, then recycle the metal.. not safe, but doable.

Dear mdsdurango - Thanks for being such a ray of sunshine on a dreary day! Chuck

By the way, what does the 'm' (mds) stand for? Myopic? Chuck

A somewhat valid analogy is to that of say a 1990 Ford or Chevy. It has lasted beyond its life-expectency, and needs a new drive train and more to be road-worthy. Even if that work is done, it is still riding on a 20 year old frame that was designed to last under 20 years.

Most, (but admittedly not all) pre-1929 uprights and off-brand grands are simply ready for the dump.

A collector might want an "historic" car, but not to commmute to and from work!!!

I feel that no piano is worth taking to the dump. (pre 30s) Because people put a lot of time into building them, and I respect that. Seeing something smashed on youtube, burned, or thrown out a truck makes me sick.

Why throw something away that CAN be fixed? Whats the point of that? Look at some of the pianos Chuck restored. Before people thought the pianos were total goners. Junk. But look at them now! Like new!

Everything can be fixed!

I hate to comment on a subject upon which so many have such clear opinions, but...
My experience is that most old pianos can be made musically viable - even by a do it yourselfer. Many people have the misconception that because it's not feasible for shops to rebuild and resell old uprights (although there are those that do) that that translates into their old pianos no longer being viable. It's been my experiance that that is not necessarily so. The most prevalent issues seem to be replacing felt punchings, bridle straps, balance rail felt, etc.. Years ago the most common reason to junk a piano was due to a weak block. Now-a-days that can be treated economically w/cr glue - without removing the original strings. The other common ailment of old pianos is tubby bass strings which I would recommend owners have a tech do for them if they opt to have them replaced. Most old pianos i've run across have perfectly adequate treble strings which I wouldn't recommend replacing as a matter of course. I have actually tuned old pianos whose restrung treble was worse than the original strings. I guess that it comes down to this: if you want a bright shiney pristine new piano, there are better options than spending many thousands to have an old piano gutted and refitted with 'new'. If you are however comfortable with the patina of an antique and have a tech whose is agreeable to maintaining it (w/o pushing for a 'rebuild'), most old pianos can go on indefinately. I should close by saying that I live in an area where old pianos are valued. As a result I see many 100 yr + instruments which are still going strong w/o ever having been rebuilt. I also should say that I tune and repair pianos at a resort Hotel where many of our pianos (we have at least a dozen including 2 concert grands, several smaller grands, uprights, and even some less prestigious makes)are entirely original. Several years ago a couple were sent off for new blocks, restringing, and action work (essentially a 'rebuild' w/no cabinet work) w/negligible musical results. I would much rather tune the pianos w/original strings than any of those that were restrung. Sorry to be so lengthy, but I thought that maybe my experience might provide a seldom expressed perspective.

Thanks Brandon for your usually sunny (no sarcasm intended - this time). I wouldn't go so far as to say everything can be fixed, but many times an older piano can be made perfectly serviceable. Oftentimes what is needed is far less than an expensive visit to the shop for a total restoration.

But, as you know, opinions vary. I would be willing to venture that those who are so vehement in their attempts to belittle the worth of vintage pianos have little (read that as 'zero') experience working themselves in a restoration shop. It's easy to be critical of something you know nothing about.

Ignorance is bliss. Don't let small minds change your optimistic attitude. You're right. Chuck

In the world of electronics, many products are produced on the understanding that if there is a problem, the customer either gets a replacement from the dealer (or throws it in the dump if it's out of warranty), without any chance of it ever being repaired. This can apply to some surprisingly expensive products. Often these products could be fixed by an enthusiast, but it's just not commercialy viable as the parts & labour come to significantly more than the cost of a replacement.

On the other hand, there is a thriving community of collectors who pay good money for old and obsolete products, such as early radios, but I wonder how many people would be interested in collecting more than the odd one or two antique pianos. Most people have a limited amount of space in their homes, so I would suspect that the world of antique piano collectors would be far too small to acommodate all the old pianos out there, which are akward to handle, expensive to repair and difficult to store.

Interesting note on the space issue. I know a bunch of vacuum collectors who are also washing machine collectors. Just think, a washer and dryer takes up about the size of a piano, and some people have dozens of them! Hehe.

Id love to have a collection of pianos. Buy a big old house, reinforce the floors of course, and start collecting!

Considering all the free pianos I have found on craigslist, I would have a cool collection by now!

Point well taken, Adrian. As far as any possibility of all the old pianos out there being restored, however, that is not even a remote possibility, considering the handful of technicians doing serious restoration work. In that the tuning / repair work tends to be more lucrative, few people are willing to spend the long hours necessary to properly restore a vintage instrument.

It's not a "get-rich-quick" type of business, no matter how you cut it. Especially for those of us who restore family heirlooms as opposed to doing high-end restorations, it can be a somewhat hard row to hoe.

My apologies for my previous sarcastic tone, by the way. It's hard not to feel a personal affront when one bashes that which you're passionate about.

Now, I need to head out to the shop to finish work on an 1880's Weber grand. It was antiqued gold in the 1970's - a hideous color. It has now been given back it's beautiful, darkly mysterious rosewood case. It has new pinblock panels, pins and strings, restored soundboard and will have a new WNG action.

This type of work is not everyone's cup of tea, I realize, but for me there's nothing like it. Chuck

Oh cool! I wana see pics of the weber when its done! Sounds like a beautiful piano!

Somewhat is a very good word here.
In car industry, the progress in safety, engine efficiency is very noticeable during every 5-10 years.

How much changed in piano world since 1920-1930?
New materials??
Drastically new principles of sound production and action?
On the contrary, you read over and over how conservative is the piano building (I could not help to digress to the fact that amazes me - putting imitation gear change points in CVT transmissions, so people would feel familiar )

It does not make a lot of sense to me personally: why still to continue using laminated wood for the pinblock? Surely, modern composite materials will be superior (and good thing here - musical qualities are not affected not to alarm conservative purists).
By the same token - why not take a beautiful old piano and replace its action with the new advanced one, etc, etc

Brandon - Here's a couple of shots. I still haven't figured how to put the photos right on the post without using a link.

Weber grand before stringing

Weber grand after stringing

Anyway, I'm working on having it done and ready to ship out by the Ides of March. Chuck

Now you raise the other side of the coin, Chuck. What you are doing is not considered "conservation" by the most hard line. That WNG action has no place in their method. Shame!

I wish I had space for a second piano so I could play one while I work on the other. Except for this little problem I've found working on my piano's action makes an enjoyable hobby. There are already enough women in my family scrapbooking and cardmaking anyway.

Dale - I'm not sure if that's meant to be shame on me, or shame on them. But you're absolutely right, in that were I attempting to preserve the piano as a museum piece, I would be out of line in putting in new action parts.

However, this is not a historically significant piano. It is a family piano which the owner wants to be able to play and enjoy on a daily basis. Many of the old action parts had been replaced previously by a hack who used off the shelf parts which didn't really match. Plus, the remaining parts are brittle to the point where if you touch them wrong, they break.

Sometimes undoing what has been done badly in the past is the hardest part of a job. In this case, I decided to give the piano a fresh start with a new composite action.

To me restoration (and this is just my own definition of the word) means to save what can be saved, and to replace what must be replaced, with the goal to bring the piano back to life. My desire is to make the piano look, sound and play as beautifully as is within my capability to achieve.

Decisions need to be made on a daily basis in operating even a small restoration shop such as mine. One does one's best.

Chuck

Always happy to help lift a spirit Chuck.

Well not quite at that point. You can do this too......left click on the first photo to open up the album......

http://picasaweb.google.com/silverwoodpianos/TheSeasonsAtSilverwoodPianos#

Dan - Beautiful photos. I bet it has a "well-seasoned" sound. A real looker.

I've got to admit, though - there's a piano even I wouldn't want shipped to my shop. (Unless the money was right, that is. )

After all, a boat payment is a boat payment (had I a boat).

Thanks for keeping it real. Chuck

Chuck,

The Weber is beautiful! I love the rosewood. It has just enough decoration; not too much, not too little. I normally say I wouldn't necessarily refinish an older piano, as long as it isn't really bad. In this case, It would be a shame not to.

What size is it? You didn't, by chance, take a "before" picture in the antique gold finish did you?

Charles

Holy cow! That weber looks excellent! The case reminds me of old steinways...

Very nice work! Looks like new!

I don't mean this as an anti-vintage or anti-Steinway tirade per se, but I've been piano-shopping for months now, and in my opinion the vast majority of pre-1930 pianos on Planet Earth (like 85-90%) are not anywhere near good enough for a professional or serious amateur. In fact, aside from sentimental or antique value, most are ready for the dumps. I've played on some serious junk--honky tonk sound, janky keyboard action, and sometimes they even smell bad. Naturally, if they were Steinways, they were still selling for thousands. Sometimes I've had to shake my head.

A lot of this is just a game of odds. A 1930 piano is now 80 years old. Chances are it has long outlived its original owner. So even if the piano in question was a true gem at birth--well built, top brand, loving original owner--unless it's been meticulously cared for, and serviced religiously, without fail, for decades, it has probably undergone serious degradation. When you read something on Craigslist like "Vintage 1906 Steinway--$15,000", they don't talk about the 20 years it went without tuning after Cousin Joe inherited it, or the 30 years it sat next to the heating grate, getting the soundboard cooked. And this assumes the piano was good to begin with. They made mediocre pianos and some lemons back then too.

Please note: I don't dispute that there are some wonderful exceptions. Some of you are no doubt proud owners of them, and wouldn't give them up for the world. Hey, cool. I'm glad. But from what I've seen, the whole assessment of vintage pianos gets muddled up with a lot of antique cache and they-don't-make-em-like-they-used-to romanticism. Personally, I'm all for judging a piano solely on its merits. I don't care about the make or year. I only care how it sounds and how it plays.



And now that I've given a strong opinion, happy to be a new member of PianoWord!

Dear Charles - Here's a couple of before shots. I'll have to go out to measure it - I'm not sure - medium length. I'll let you know. Thanks for the comments.

Weber case before

Weber inside before

I'll try to do a video of it being played when finished.

Best wishes. Chuck

Looks to be a 6'6" or 7 footer to me.

I would love to see you play one of your fine restoration instruments!

That was ugly!! Thank you for refinishing it. (The piano was probably embarrassed to be seen like that.)

Charles

As ugly as that lime oak was, It was in pretty good shape to start with! Im sure that was a good help!

Now that inside. Boy talk about dusty! Cant even see the soundboard!

I am one of the guys who absolutely hates to see pianos thrown out. Its almost like a crime to see that happen. While I understand why someone would do that and sometimes it is the only choice, I know and see many kids who's parents simply can not afford to buy them one. They have trouble paying for groceries much less a piano.

We became friends with an organization here in San Diego that gives pianos and musical instruments to those who can't do for themselves. When a customer has a trade in we offer them three options. One is the option of trade in which reduces the price of the new piano by the amount that we offer them on trade. The other option is consignment which allows them to possibly get a little more money in the end than I would offer on trade and the third is to donate thier piano to the Childrens Initiative where they will get a "true" tax write off. The piano is bought into the store, we go through it to be sure it is playable and then give our charity a real value for the piano for the donor's write off. They then draw from a list of people who have requested a musical instrument and the instrument is then given to some deserving child or organization that helps with music and music education. To date (two and a half years) we have given ( been responsible for giving ) more than 50 instruments. Are they concert quality instruments? NO. But at least on some level I feel like we are helping someone in our community that otherwise would not have been helped.

Just my thoughts

Ric Overton
Ric@PianoSD.com
San Diego

Wow I cant be happier that you are doing such a great deed to the community Ric! What a great way to help tomorrows musicians!
Thanks!