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#1391086 - 03/08/10 08:24 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Nachtschatten]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Nachtschatten, CA111 is old, the CA63 and CA93 have a new really inspiring piano sound, I like it very much, and I had the opportunity to test drive both CA51 (sound is the same as CA111) and the CA63. Also the RM3 is a real improvement over the already great keyboard action of CA111. Regarding the sustain test: Here Kawai still fails heavily, which I do not understand at all since it should be quite simple to get this done right.

These are the limitations / flaws I identified with CA63:

1) Crackling / polyphonic flaw
--> corrected in the most current firmware!

2) Sustain test failed!
--> This definitely needs to be fixed since I can hear it on some of my songs!

3) Volume of reverb effect not adjustable.
--> It would be very nice if the effect strength would be adjustable (like it is possible for the other effects like chorus, wahwah etc.)

4) It seems that damper resonance and string resonance is still not recorded when DP is played using external MIDI data
--> Needs to be fixed!

5) No silent keypress possible. There is always a sound produced even if you press down a key extremely soft
--> Should be fixed, although not such a big deal (for me)!

6) Key off samples are very subtle, and when you hear them (with setting 10/10), not very convincing
--> not a big deal, neglectible

7) String resonance is very nice, but after pressing about 10 keys (I didn't actually count the number) in a serial order to produce resonance, the production of a string resonance sound suddenly stops. You have to raise the key and press it down again so that resonance is again working
--> This is a more academic problem, since you would only in extreme songs press so many keys to produce string resonance. Neglectible

8) Another string resonance issue: The very high notes which are not dampered at all also produce string resonance when depressed. This is not like a real acoustic, because all of these high notes should be resonate when a key is pressed, because they are not dampered all the time
--> Nice to have, but neglectible

9) I don't know if this is possible , but this would be really great: The sustain time of all keys is too short, this should be at least 25-50% longer, that would be perfect! Even better would be to have a dedicated adjustment like "sustain length" that can be adjusted from 1-10 (whereas 5 is like current setting)
--> VERY nice to have!!

Other than that I really love my CA63, and I'm playing the piano with great joy!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1391090 - 03/08/10 08:36 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
jbx Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: theJourney
However, based on reputation, I would not buy one from van Urk in Rotterdam


To be honest, my information about their reputation is very outdated (several decades old!), so maybe you are right. However, I think, just to try the CA63, it doesn't really matter what their reputation is... you probably have already more knowledge about DPs then most salespersons and if you don't like their service, price or reputation, you just use them to audition the DP only and buy it somewhere else wink

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#1391618 - 03/08/10 07:16 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: jbx]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9015
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
kawaian, thank you for posting this list - some interesting suggestions there.

As noted previously, if you believe there are serious issues with the CA93/CA63 that need to be resolved, please feel free to send me a PM.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1392894 - 03/10/10 01:20 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Kawai James]
Nguyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 430
Loc: Massachusetts
Is it normal to hear the Piano goes out of tuned then back in tuned with pedal down? Last night I was practicing and there’s a portion of the piece with G chord duration of 3 syncopated whole notes with pedal down. Well, when I struck the chord and pedal depressed, I could clearly hear the chord went out of tuned for a second or split second, then back into tuned. It bothered me for awhile but then I thought, maybe that’s how it is on an acoustic with strings?

I must say I’m inexperienced and have only practiced for almost a year on an old Viscount. I never heard this before on the Viscount. Is this how it is on an acoustic? Or is something not quite right with my DP?


Edited by Nguyen (03/10/10 01:29 PM)
_________________________
Nguyen - Student Pianist

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#1392911 - 03/10/10 01:42 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Nguyen]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Nguyen
Is it normal to hear the Piano goes out of tuned then back in tuned with pedal down? Last night I was practicing and there’s a portion of the piece with G chord duration of 3 syncopated whole notes with pedal down. Well, when I strike the chord and pedal depressed, I could clearly hear the chord goes out of tuned for a second or split second, then back into tuned. It bothered me for awhile but then I thought, maybe that’s how it is on an acoustic with strings?

I must say I’m inexperienced and have only practiced for almost a year on an old Viscount. I never heard this before on the Viscount. Is this how it is on an acoustic? Or is something not quite right with my DP?


I'm not the expert but I think this is how it works...

I think on an acoustic piano if the pedal is down and you play a C. Other strings will also ring, certainly the other Cs will, but I think any string that shares a harmonic overtone with the C you played will as well. As your C decays in sustain it become more "pure" with fewer overtones and therefore excites fewer unrelated notes.

So I think it is not in/out of tune but you hear at first many unrelated notes.

Also there is a slight effect on any stringed instrument that if you pluck, hammer, pick or strum a string you just have to increase the tension on it in order to play it. Then as it rings the tension goes back. You can really notice this effect on a guitar if you have an electronic tuner. But I doubt this is what you heard

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#1392941 - 03/10/10 02:39 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: ChrisA]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2203
Loc: Sydney, Australia
It could also be due to voice overlapping with the sustain pedal down. In order to create the slight "swelling", and the subtle change of timbre between successive notes, it is probably allowing previously struck notes to continue to sound. So, it is, in effect, playing simultaneous recordings of the same note, played at different times. If the pitch of the notes changes over time (which can happen - I think the notes typically start off a bit sharp, and then fall in pitch - I think this is what Chris is saying), you will hear the slight "beating" between the different notes.

Obviously, this voice overlapping isn't completely authentic. However, it usually works very well IMHO. It is a very simple way for them to enhance the sound with the sustain pedal down.

If you depress the sustain pedal, and play just ONE chord, does it sound out of tune? If it sounds ok, I feel more confident that the problem is due to the above.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (03/10/10 02:45 PM)

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#1394223 - 03/12/10 07:52 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: sullivang]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
As mentioned in another thread, the amount of sound coming from the keyboard and action when being played with headphones can be significant enough to keep people from sleeping or even to cause problems with downstairs neighbors.

It would be very useful to try to take the relative sound produced into account when evaluating different models, especially for those who are buying a digital for reasons of peace in the house.

Perhaps someone can find a store that is not crazy with noise and use a db(A) meter to measure the relative sound produced?

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#1394230 - 03/12/10 08:08 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
I know what you mean. But this is not necessarily about the noise level in the same room, but with resonances that go through walls and floors. I had my old masterkeyboard upstairs, and people wanted to sleep downstairs. When I played you could hear all the time this annoying "thumb, thumb thumb, thumb...". They could tell exactly what piece of music I was playing... smile
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1394236 - 03/12/10 08:14 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Is that when you gave up Prokofiev? smile

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#1394238 - 03/12/10 08:20 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: kawaian
I know what you mean. But this is not necessarily about the noise level in the same room, but with resonances that go through walls and floors.


Good point, though.
This kind of "contact sound" can be reduced by de-coupling the piano from the floor with a raised platform on rubber.

Not sure how we could measure the degree to which a de-coupling already takes place in the relative construction of the instruments.

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#1396038 - 03/15/10 03:16 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
worov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Paris
kawaian said :

Quote:

These are the limitations / flaws I identified with CA63:

1) Crackling / polyphonic flaw
--> corrected in the most current firmware!

2) Sustain test failed!
--> This definitely needs to be fixed since I can hear it on some of my songs!

3) Volume of reverb effect not adjustable.
--> It would be very nice if the effect strength would be adjustable (like it is possible for the other effects like chorus, wahwah etc.)

4) It seems that damper resonance and string resonance is still not recorded when DP is played using external MIDI data
--> Needs to be fixed!

5) No silent keypress possible. There is always a sound produced even if you press down a key extremely soft
--> Should be fixed, although not such a big deal (for me)!

6) Key off samples are very subtle, and when you hear them (with setting 10/10), not very convincing
--> not a big deal, neglectible

7) String resonance is very nice, but after pressing about 10 keys (I didn't actually count the number) in a serial order to produce resonance, the production of a string resonance sound suddenly stops. You have to raise the key and press it down again so that resonance is again working
--> This is a more academic problem, since you would only in extreme songs press so many keys to produce string resonance. Neglectible

8) Another string resonance issue: The very high notes which are not dampered at all also produce string resonance when depressed. This is not like a real acoustic, because all of these high notes should be resonate when a key is pressed, because they are not dampered all the time
--> Nice to have, but neglectible

9) I don't know if this is possible , but this would be really great: The sustain time of all keys is too short, this should be at least 25-50% longer, that would be perfect! Even better would be to have a dedicated adjustment like "sustain length" that can be adjusted from 1-10 (whereas 5 is like current setting)
--> VERY nice to have!!


CA-63 and CA-93 are not yet available in France, so I can't try them. Does anyone know if the CA-93 presents the same flaws as the CA-63 ? Has anyone tried them both side by side ?

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#1396066 - 03/15/10 05:06 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: worov]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
I tried them side by side but did not check for these flaws. But I guess they have exactly the same firmware built in except for some additional sounds of CA-93. Everything else is 100% identical.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1401225 - 03/22/10 11:02 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Has anyone been able to compare the CA93 version of the RM3 keyboard with escapement next to the HP-307 versus the CA63 version without?

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#1401267 - 03/22/10 12:07 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Yes, I did. See my dedicated thread for this specific comparison.

Im not too much used to escapement because I'm mostly playing acoustic uprights. So the additional escapement of CA93 is not a big deal for me when comparing both of them, but it's noticeable when you play very softly.

Generally I clearly prefer the action of the CA series.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1401281 - 03/22/10 12:23 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
I mean anyone besides you, silly. wink

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#1401289 - 03/22/10 12:39 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Nachtschatten]
elecmuse3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 304
Loc: Cincinnati
Thanks to all on this topic for being civilized! A breath of enthusiastic fresh air on a smoggy internet.
_________________________
Terry@cincyrockers.com
www.theplayerpianoshop.com

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#1401290 - 03/22/10 12:41 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: elecmuse3]
elecmuse3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 304
Loc: Cincinnati
Oops, meant that for a different thread (but applies here too)!
_________________________
Terry@cincyrockers.com
www.theplayerpianoshop.com

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#1401294 - 03/22/10 12:49 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
elecmuse3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 304
Loc: Cincinnati
For thumping noise, whether from Prokofiev or others, has anyone tried the speaker isolation pads sold for recording studio monitors? You would need to lower your stand by the thickness of the pads.

some quick, NON-ENDORSED googled links:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/251857-REG/Auralex_MOPAD1_MoPAD_Monitor_Isolation.html

http://www.futureproducers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199228

http://www.vibrasystems.com/?EC=Products&CategoryID=11
_________________________
Terry@cincyrockers.com
www.theplayerpianoshop.com

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#1402538 - 03/24/10 06:42 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: elecmuse3]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
There are a number of complaints that come up from time to time after people have used their digital instruments for a while. These include:

- hard bottoming out of the key motion causing pain and repeated stress injury
- keyboard becoming loose or irregular
- keys becoming very noisy and disruptive for other people
- keys becoming sluggish or less responsive

- long exposure to sound leading to evaluation of sound becoming artificial or dead sounding
- irritating ringing or harsh sound, particularly individual notes or mid-section making practice annoying
- pedaling and polyphony not acting authentically

It would be very interesting getting any feedback from Yamaha CLP & AG, Kawai CA and Roland HP users if they have experienced or are experiencing such issues.

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#1402540 - 03/24/10 06:56 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
AndyT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/09
Posts: 120
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Originally Posted By: theJourney

- irritating ringing or harsh sound, particularly individual notes or mid-section making practice annoying



- oh yes, my CA63 does that (so I suspect the CA93 does too), see this thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1387821

I've come to get used to it, though every now and again it still stops me in my tracks.


Edited by AndyT (03/24/10 06:56 AM)
Edit Reason: used quote

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#1402627 - 03/24/10 10:14 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: AndyT]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Here is another direct comparison between the CA93 and the HP307:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1401918.html#Post1401918

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#1404041 - 03/26/10 05:13 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Question for those familiar with both the Kawai and the Roland:

Is my understanding correct that the Kawai lets you record directly to USB both MIDI and MP3/WAV while the Roland does not?

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#1404049 - 03/26/10 05:52 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
It is my understanding that Kawai CA63 and CA93 records MIDI internally and that it is able to render MIDI to MP3 after the recording was finished.
Now Kawai normally doesnt use string resonances while playing from MIDI or from the internal recorder.
So it is also interesting if string resonances will be rendered to WAV or to MP3.

Peter
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1404054 - 03/26/10 06:14 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: hpeterh]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
CA63/CA93: You can play live and immediately record it to USB in both MP3 and WAV format. All effects will be recorded (WYHIWYR = what you hear is what you record).


Edited by kawaian (03/26/10 06:16 AM)
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1404059 - 03/26/10 06:36 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Thanks for the information.
So far I can see from the manual it asks: "Save to USB?" when the recording is finished.

So if it records WAV and if it saves afterwards then it must have a lot of internal storage. How much is this? What is the limit of recording capacity?
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1404069 - 03/26/10 07:21 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: hpeterh]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
I already recorded a WAV file with more than 30 minutes length, I don't think it has that much internal storage capacity, so I guess it stores to USB stick already during recording. But at the end of the recording it asks if you would like to keep the recording, and what name you wnat to choose, so this is more like a finalization or a deletion of the already stored piece.

There is also not much difference in storing duration regardless of what you answer to the question "save to USB Y/N?".


_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1404076 - 03/26/10 07:42 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Thank you very much.

Peter
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1404079 - 03/26/10 07:48 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: hpeterh]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Can anyone confirm that what Kawaian confirmed for the Kawai is NOT possible on the Roland?

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#1404111 - 03/26/10 09:02 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9015
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Yes, kawaian is correct. The MP3/WAV recorder saves the audio to a temporary file on the USB device, which is then (re)named accordingly following the user's input.

With the current software it is not possible to convert a MIDI file to WAV/MP3, however songs stored in the internal recorder (i.e. user songs) can be converted.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1404125 - 03/26/10 09:12 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Kawai James]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
James, to be more precise, it's not possible to store the MIDI data that is received by MIDI-In directly to an MP3/WAV.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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